Layonara - View Single Post - MMO Objectives Discussion

Acacea · 10-25-07, 03:36 PM

((This isn't NWN related, but it's Layo related and is a discussion/suggestion, so I had to put it somewhere.))

In all games, the player must continue to have goals and the opportunity to progress their abilities. It's just a fact of life, most especially if it is a commercial game. High level content has made or broken other games in the past, surely, because no one ever wants to get to the point where they invest a great deal into a character, and it piddles off into boredom for lack of anything to do. I would say that for a long time, high level content actually broke Layo for a lot of people, because it just wasn't there. And then when it is added, you sort of wonder what you defeated the bad guys of doom for, anyway, when more are just going to be added coming from nowhere in order to keep you entertained.

In most games, satisfying the craving for advancement is the general expectation of expansions that will continuously raise the bar and add higher levels and higher level content to go with that. The ceiling will continue to get raised, because you are always in need of something to keep players interested, more shinies for them to keep playing your game for, etc. They want more ability points, more loot, more monsters, etc. So in most games, it will go up for as long as they keep releasing updates for the game. That's what we want in those games.

But in places like Layonara, where despite the commercial aspect of the new game some level of roleplay is surely going to be aimed for, how much sense does that make? You simply can't keep raising the bar after a certain point, it doesn't make any sense. You cannot tell us that a villain has the entire world in the palm of his hand to crush at any given time, run us through a circus of legendary trials to eventually, years later, defeat him...and then the next week release an expansion that populates all the cities with guards that could kick the former villain's butt. That just slaps everyone who bothered getting invested in your plot. There has to be a point SOMEwhere where "you win," a point where the cap has been raised and raised again but then you have run out of challenges in the world. Sure, then you go to the Pits, but after that? and that? And what about when you conquer all that, but the game is called Layonara, it's about THIS world, what the heck do you do? You need to win, sometime.

What? You can't win in an MMO, that doesn't make any sense, you have to keep making monsters more and more epic, add more and more epic loot, make horrible villains pointless and pathetic by making new villains even more horrible even if the former one was supposed to rule them all! MORE!

In my opinion, that's retarded.

*Ducks any flying objects before continuing.*

Ahem. The problem, in my opinion, is that in one version, the player constantly improves in power and items at the expense of realism, roleplay, and investment in a campaign (like most of the Korean translations)- and in the other, the player 'wins' and has nowhere to go and doesn't want to start a new character and is bored.

Both of those are very bad for this kind of game, surely. I agree that a player should never run out of things to do. That there should always be opportunities. However, there should be a point where you can no longer progress 'up' in terms of power, and need to progress 'sideways.' Instead of the usual safe route of constantly raising a cap, there should be alternate means of advancement. I'm not really a PvP freak and that's a whole 'nother huge issue to tackle and balance, but if a player gets to that certain point of power where he looks around and most of the enemies in his range are other players also wrestling for dominance.

When you get to a certain level of mechanical power, there should be nowhere else to go to learn to 'hit things harder.' Instead, high level game play becomes the realm of politics, of rulers, the underworld, possession of some item that all the world is constantly seeking to take from you, armies at your command, etc. (For the record, yes I think there is a great deal you should be able to do politics-wise without necessarily being high 'level', but that is a different subject)

You need to provide things to do, yes, but there comes a point where you just can't really learn to hit something harder. Instead of taking the easy way and just hitting that button that makes all PCs able to now gain the skill to wipe the floor with Bloodstone with a sneeze yet still die to a city guard, involve them! Make them part of the world and use their power to compete in it.

Some games claim to do so, but I would like to see that Layo is wanting to still be some game that involves players in the world and shapes it around them, rather than plopping them in a place, trotting them around on a lead, and constantly lifting the carrot higher to satisfy the "me want hit hard" crowd.

10-25-07, 03:36 PM	#1
Acacea Gamemaster Characters Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 2,314 Thanks: 114 Thanked 569 Times in 279 Posts	MMO Objectives Discussion - The Constantly Lifted Level Cap ((This isn't NWN related, but it's Layo related and is a discussion/suggestion, so I had to put it somewhere.)) In all games, the player must continue to have goals and the opportunity to progress their abilities. It's just a fact of life, most especially if it is a commercial game. High level content has made or broken other games in the past, surely, because no one ever wants to get to the point where they invest a great deal into a character, and it piddles off into boredom for lack of anything to do. I would say that for a long time, high level content actually broke Layo for a lot of people, because it just wasn't there. And then when it is added, you sort of wonder what you defeated the bad guys of doom for, anyway, when more are just going to be added coming from nowhere in order to keep you entertained. In most games, satisfying the craving for advancement is the general expectation of expansions that will continuously raise the bar and add higher levels and higher level content to go with that. The ceiling will continue to get raised, because you are always in need of something to keep players interested, more shinies for them to keep playing your game for, etc. They want more ability points, more loot, more monsters, etc. So in most games, it will go up for as long as they keep releasing updates for the game. That's what we want in those games. But in places like Layonara, where despite the commercial aspect of the new game some level of roleplay is surely going to be aimed for, how much sense does that make? You simply can't keep raising the bar after a certain point, it doesn't make any sense. You cannot tell us that a villain has the entire world in the palm of his hand to crush at any given time, run us through a circus of legendary trials to eventually, years later, defeat him...and then the next week release an expansion that populates all the cities with guards that could kick the former villain's butt. That just slaps everyone who bothered getting invested in your plot. There has to be a point SOMEwhere where "you win," a point where the cap has been raised and raised again but then you have run out of challenges in the world. Sure, then you go to the Pits, but after that? and that? And what about when you conquer all that, but the game is called Layonara, it's about THIS world, what the heck do you do? You need to win, sometime. What? You can't win in an MMO, that doesn't make any sense, you have to keep making monsters more and more epic, add more and more epic loot, make horrible villains pointless and pathetic by making new villains even more horrible even if the former one was supposed to rule them all! MORE! In my opinion, that's retarded. Ducks any flying objects before continuing. Ahem. The problem, in my opinion, is that in one version, the player constantly improves in power and items at the expense of realism, roleplay, and investment in a campaign (like most of the Korean translations)- and in the other, the player 'wins' and has nowhere to go and doesn't want to start a new character and is bored. Both of those are very bad for this kind of game, surely. I agree that a player should never run out of things to do. That there should always be opportunities. However, there should be a point where you can no longer progress 'up' in terms of power, and need to progress 'sideways.' Instead of the usual safe route of constantly raising a cap, there should be alternate means of advancement. I'm not really a PvP freak and that's a whole 'nother huge issue to tackle and balance, but if a player gets to that certain point of power where he looks around and most of the enemies in his range are other players also wrestling for dominance. When you get to a certain level of mechanical power, there should be nowhere else to go to learn to 'hit things harder.' Instead, high level game play becomes the realm of politics, of rulers, the underworld, possession of some item that all the world is constantly seeking to take from you, armies at your command, etc. (For the record, yes I think there is a great deal you should be able to do politics-wise without necessarily being high 'level', but that is a different subject) You need to provide things to do, yes, but there comes a point where you just can't really learn to hit something harder. Instead of taking the easy way and just hitting that button that makes all PCs able to now gain the skill to wipe the floor with Bloodstone with a sneeze yet still die to a city guard, involve them! Make them part of the world and use their power to compete in it. Some games claim to do so, but I would like to see that Layo is wanting to still be some game that involves players in the world and shapes it around them, rather than plopping them in a place, trotting them around on a lead, and constantly lifting the carrot higher to satisfy the "me want hit hard" crowd.