[Chongo]

Great sentiments.

I don't think that they can realistically be applied *at all* to the NWN Layonara. That effort is futile, it was futile when the initial visions circling this sort of thing were voiced for v3, which as we all know was an effort that somewhere decided: 'hey, we can do this better if we start from scratch'. There's a pool of folks that look at the core of the NWN engine and the core of Layonara and frown. Luckily, those folks are the ones that have gone on to developing what *could* be the unrealistic rarity that you hope for in your initial post. I hope for the best, it takes an entirely fresh look on gameplay with a very renegade and risky thought process on the business side of actually sustaining a server, a game, or even just an idea. I'd put my money on the fact that the percentage of sustaining dollars come from individuals that want the 'me hit harder' as you so creatively put it. Based on that model, which we see everywhere, it'd be an interesting sight to see someone be so bold as to create a game mechanic that sought asymmetric progression. I honestly can't think of ways to do it.

Why do you stick with a character? Advancement. Nobody can argue this, and if you're doing the overly typical 'shout for roleplay' against advancement, you just don't get it. It happens in different mediums. There are of course the numbers. That's what the anti-progressionists denounce as the evil of the lands. There are the social relationships, progressions therein that establish a wanting to continue in the advancement of those relationships. This is what you call good roleplay. And yes, it's a personal advancment that keeps you logging in. There are the intangible 'I am an approved god' progressions. Things that people typically can only roleplay towards in application quests humorously. Where they can gain favor in a section of the community through divine (GM) intervention and approval. Something that a single digit percentage of our GM to player ratio will ever see. There are all sorts of advancements. And again, it comes down to the creation of a game mechanic that fosters the latter intangibles in a fashion that doesn't require a GM organization so vast and so organized that it by default could take over planet earth in less then a year due to its efficacy and motivation.

How do you create something that harnesses advancement in this fashion? I know that the founding fathers of the next generation of Layonara have some interesting concepts of course. But we'd all better believe that it's uncharted territory. And hey, the SIMS works. It is an advancement/ interest scale that exists almost solely on the advancement of the aforementioned social relationships. This is actually a good baseline to work off of. It works! I know, it's wild to me too. It's an interesting world we live in these days. The psychological implications of wanting advancement in relationships that don't directly impact you or your real life persona are becoming more and more socially acceptable. And hey, in my strange opinion it's this sort of thing that enables world peace, though we need to get by the initial stages where you have a vast population that desparately wants to burn bridges and have their own empowering 'emotional nukes'. Moving on though...

Where do you build up on this concept? Alright, the SIMS is roleplay. It is our proven chart of social advancement bringing in a playerbase. There is an absolutely massive gap to fill between this and D&D. Granted, it would appear that Layonara intends to disable the classic D&D advancement tables that we all have wound tightly in our little heads. But where does it take us? I honestly don't know. I hope for the best but I acknowledge the worst where every other proven game mechanic has incredible difficulties hitting any sort of middle ground. When you start talking about advancement on the scales that you mention below... this is a vast undertaking. First admitting that there will never exist a player-serving base of management type 'game masters' under a standard operating procedure set that pretty much would require it to be a full time profession by entities so consistent in behavior that they may as well be machines... you end up with only game mechanics to fall back on. So you bring in social structures and advancement. This is a feat by itself. And by itself it, at best, ends up a multiple PC version of Civilization. Common goals, advancement based on social structures or economics. And I have to be honest... where does it end up differing? Social advancements amongst kingdom based ideals? Does anyone here think that there's any difference in how an individual 90 hour a week player with skills (with a z of course) will advance in the old system versus this? It'll be the same scenario, only more organized and more gang based. We'll see the same 'evils', any way you can slice the current angles of gameplay evils. And on any progression that is scripted into the game, we're bound to witness this. So at the core, the only natural and true dynamic of progression falls back to a social only atmosphere. And again, the SIMS got that one. But... we don't play the SIMs, so what is it? Well there are a lot of answers for that which we can all answer to ourselves.

I honestly don't know. I found myself playing NWN 2 the past couple of nights because I've yearned to see the engine. And I was standing on that costal cliff city near the beginning just thinking how wonderful this setting would be for a start point on a PW. And it's a wonderful setting for multiple reasons. It's downright beautiful to sit under the stars in a community startpoint that is pleasant to simply sit there and do the SIMS thing. The town offers the opportunity to build in some sort of infrastructure, professions, things to become engrained in as a character persona. The immediate scenery evokes a sense of wonder and mystery as it's a coastal town and can yield a wondrous number of mysteries and adventures beyond the horizon of where the ships may take you. And I'm thinking, that in all of our SIMS style social progression, it's the fact that our eyes can keep wandering towards that horizon. The unknowns of adventures. How do you scale these adventures? How do you create progression where you don't simply retire after figuring out that you *can* in fact kill and eat that grizzly bear in the vast woods behind your house that you were always afraid of. People will inherently desire to find that life has more to offer them then the one fearsome challenge. That the greatest war of their life isn't the end-all of life changing events. That there's no reason to retire to their homes and sleep 24 hours a day because they know that the adventure will never be as impressive as they witnessed when whatever their real life version of Bloodstone falling at their hands may be. People are always going to seek this horizon, and so far... a d20 system of neverending advancement is the best source I've seen to let these horizons continue. The SIMS is there. We all cite it everyday in our 'real' or 'bench' roleplay allusions towards what's at the 'core' of Layonara. Or many do at least. It's just there, for anyone to make use of. How do you create a mechanic that creates gravity towards that horizon though? XP and me vs. the evils villains, PvP and us versus our enemies, kingdoms and political/military/ economic struggles and intruigue against our neighbors. It takes the social aspect, and then creates a massive dynamic off the tangible horizon that keeps the social aspect entertained with subjects that aren't entirely empty barstool chatterings, or worse, formed out of the horizons of one's theoritical ID. But we'd better believe that this dynamic is pretty darn complicated. Look at D&D. I mean... it's all there. The horizon's are vast and ever growing, and meanwhile there are so many opportunities for individuality and diversification to maintain interesting persona's that there is utterly no excuse for complaints on the theme not allowing for a fantastic dynamic. It's how it comes out in the game mechanic.

I personally haven't figured out a system along those lines that I'd take to a venture capitalist. When someone does, and finds a way to make it work in a sustainable environment, I'll pay my monthly fee.