Question About Shadowdancers

[Interia_Discordius]

I'd like to know pretty much how being a shadowdancer is to be roleplayed out equal to levels and ways of each CDQ... What can't they do, moreso, is what I'd like to know. When it comes to plain sitting around roleplaying (can their shadows move, can they play with the shadow, can they spawn pieces of it into their hands, etc), when it comes to teaching (can they take them into "pocket planes," can they insert darkness into a person, how is shadowdancing taught?), and any other information someone would like to tell me about before I make an endeavor to seriously roleplay the darker side of my Kinai

[darkstorme]

In answer to your questions (drawing from the DMG and PHB, 3rd Edition (so L or Ed or Pan or whomever, override me if I'm wrong...)

• Their shadows do not move all by themselves.
• Shadowdancers can manipulate shadows, but it's draining on them. This is essentially what "Shadow Daze" is, but a lesser form of it can be used to make, say, shadow puppets. They manipulate real shadows, however, so they can't make "pieces of shadow" appear and play with them tangibly.
• Shadowdancers do not have "pocket planes" of any description. The "Shadow Jump" ability from D&D (not implemented in NWN because.. well, it'd be really hard) is a Shadowdancer ducking into the Plane of Shadows very briefly to travel (at epic levels) a few hundred feet. That's how long they'd be willing to stay there.
• I'm really not sure what you mean by "insert darkness into a person". A Shadowdancer's power comes mainly from illusion, deception, and control over shadows. They can't influence another person other than by these means - certainly not to infuse the essence of shadow, or some such thing, into another person.
• Shadowdancing is a supernatural extension of astonishing acrobatic and stealthy ability. A person learns to use the shadows, hide in them, and eventually (given that such things are somewhat inevitable in D&D) is so familiar with them that they can start to manipulate them in a near-magical fashion. If Shadowdancing were to be taught, it would start with stealthy movement, and when a person can achieve near-invisibility on their own, it would likely progress to "feeling" the shadows around them. In a way, I suspect it's much like the training a druid undergoes, except instead of trying to feel a connection to nature, to blend and merge with that flow, a journeyman shadowdancer would be encouraged to feel the connection he has with the shadows, to skirt the boundary where shadow can, for an instant, become reality.
• Despite the association with darkness, I should emphasize that there is nothing inherently evil about shadowdancers. Even if their summoned Shadows were still incorporeal undead, it's quite clear from the rules that a summoned shadow matches its owner's alignment.

Hope some of this helped. I've been building Kell towards Shadowdancer for about a year now, so I've had lots of time to think about it.

[Dorganath]

To further one point made above...

Exactly one Shadowdancer gained an ability akin to Shadow Jump over the course of the character's WLDQ and is a benefit of the character's status after the quest was completed. It was pretty hard-fought and definitely well-earned. I would not look for something like this to become common among Shadowdancers in Layonara.

[Gulnyr]

As a tangent to this, Hide in Plain Sight is not some sort of magical disappearance. According to the SRD, HiPS is the ability to use the Hide skill while being observed. The Hide skill requires cover or concealment in order to work, which means it's just like real life; you can't stand in the middle of an open room or on a road and claim to be hiding from anyone nearby. NWN's version of Hide is basically broken, since silly things like hiding in the middle of the street are possible. Realistically, if you run away from someone and duck around the corner of a building, you can't suddenly go stealthy standing there in the alley and be hiding. You have to jump behind some crates or something and hope not to be spotted. This is why some DM's make rules stating that ridiculous "open ground" hiding is not possible on their quests:

Do not sneak in broad daylight over an open field - even though you skill says you are likely to succeed, there are no shadows to hide in and you will be spotted.

The HiPS rules don't say you don't need cover or concealment, they say you can hide while people are watching. A Shadowdancer is so good at hiding and blending into the shadows that she seems to vanish into those dark places even when people are watching. But it's still the use of the skill, not some magical effect, so you have to attempt to hide by using the shadows to conceal yourself; you don't just vanish in broad daylight in the middle of town.

The only person I have seen consistently play that point is VGN when playing Vin. Vin will emote ducking into people's shadows or into the shade of a tree before vanishing. He doesn't just poof like a mage casting invisibility. He actively hides, just like the ability is described in the SRD.

EDIT: Oh, and an important point, a Shadowdancer can't hide in his own shadow, heh.

[Interia_Discordius]

Thanks for all these points. It really helps clearing up on just how to roleplay a shadowdancer and their abilities

[Rayenoir]

Clarifying HiPS, copied directly from the SRD Shadowdancer :: d20srd.org

"A shadowdancer can use the Hide skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow." (emphasis mine)

Shadowdancers, do not, in fact, require cover or concealment according to this passage. The Hide in Plain Sight ability is labelled for shadowdancers as (Su) which means it is actually a supernatural, nearly magical effect.

[Interia_Discordius]

Thanks much

[Gulnyr]

Originally Posted by Rayenoir

Shadowdancers, do not, in fact, require cover or concealment according to this passage.

I disagree with that interpretation, because shadows provide concealment and the Shadowdancer has to be close to (or within) a shadow to gain benefits. Standing in an open field, on a well-lit road, or any similar location and hiding, no matter the method, still seems like an abuse of the rules to me. Of course, that can lead back to the 'broken' NWN Hide skill, and the philosophy that it doesn't matter what should be but only what is. *shrug* And I'm sure anyone could come up with explanations and excuses with varying degrees of munchkinity - "The grass casts shadows." I know how I would rule were I DMing that, but it's not my place to draw that line here.

It's my opinion that HiPS is meant to be a very impressive form of active hiding, and roleplaying it as such instead of like a silenced, stilled Invisibility spell adds flavor and character to the Shadowdancer class, but my opinion really doesn't mean anything; I don't play a Shadowdancer.

[Hellblazer]

Well reading this and the link provided by Rayenoir brought me two question.

1- I want to make sure that the quote on lore is right that there is no need to put 5 points into perform
2- Since I already have uncannydoge 2 what will happen witht he bonus feat i am supose to get when i pass the shadowdancers cdq (if i ever get it )

[Rayenoir]

Originally Posted by Gulnyr

I disagree with that interpretation, because shadows provide concealment and the Shadowdancer has to be close to (or within) a shadow to gain benefits.

I agree with the latter, but not the former. A Shadowdancer -does- have to be close to a shadow to gain benefits. Within 10 feet, as it states in the description. However, being within 10 feet of a shadow does not imply having concealment. Something of a mystic ability to draw closer, if you will, limited to that range.

For a more IC note, I have always envisioned my character as reaching out and using her skills and training to effectively wrap herself in whatever shadows were to hand in order to obscure herself from visibility. Sort of a brief "skin" of blackness before effectively poofing out of sight. My feeling is that Shadowdancing is best seen as a reach above and beyond mundane hiding, using a supernatural effect to gain the skill necessary to hide where others who do not have such training are unable to do so. A well-lit road with no landmarks nearby, obviously not, but a road on an overcast day with a number of trees casting distinct shadows? I find that quite possible.

Hellblazer, LORE is correct in that the perform requirement from PnP has been changed to a Tumble requirement in NWN, due to perform being a skill restricted to bards. If you already have Uncanny Dodge II, then I believe you will receive Uncanny Dodge III (but I am not entirely certain).

[darkstorme]

Originally Posted by Hellblazer

Well reading this and the link provided by Rayenoir brought me two question.

1- I want to make sure that the quote on lore is right that there is no need to put 5 points into perform
2- Since I already have uncannydoge 2 what will happen witht he bonus feat i am supose to get when i pass the shadowdancers cdq (if i ever get it )

1. Since Perform is not, in fact, an available skill for any class other than Bard, it would restrict Shadowdancer quite a bit if Perform were necessary.
2. *shrugs* My guess is, you just get to be a shadowdancer, no bonus feat. Seems fair enough.