How to RP Diety Relationships w/ topsy-turvy Like vs dislike?

[lonnarin]

I just saw Leanthar's recent message about RPing diety relationships between characters, which I somewhat agree with. However, some deity relationships make no sense to begin with. For example, Xeen is Friendly towards Folian, but Folian Dislikes Xeen. In this case, if a Folianite and Xeenite become friends, are they only half in the wrong? Should all Xeenite clerics pester Folianite clerics with party invitations, and Folianites treat the Xeenites with utter contempt for their adoration? Would two such clerics partying together get along or hate eachother in this case?

Next is the issue of Likes and Dislikes that don't make sense to begin with. Like Toran the defender of the weak and of the common man who seems to have a mutual disdain for Prunilla, the patron of the peasant farmers and the happy home... Does this mean that LG paladins who are sworn to protect their homelands and the peasant farmers secretly HATE them as they do so? Do the farmers gripe that the paladins should quit patrolling the outskirts and roads so that orc hoardes can raid their farms more often? Deep down inside, do Toranite paladins fantasize of raiding innocent farmers, laying waste to their crops and burning down their barns for valuing agriculture above martial law?

Then what about Aeridenites and Azattans who by the very virtue of their faith must show loving kindness to all forms of life? Even though they might hate Corath himself for what he preaches, how do they view Corathites who by virtue of Azattan theology are capable of redemption without exception, and by virtue of Aeridenite theology, are entitled to their life, and should be peacefully dealt with?

I can understand the clear oppositional gods like Toran vs Corath, Dorand Vs Grand and Grannoch, Vorax vs Pyrtechon or Sulterio... but it's the strange exceptions mentioned above that give me pause. I would like to see more background lore and explaination as to why some gods hate the gods that love them, and why guardian paladins hate the very people they are sworn to protect. How should an Aeridenite approach a Corathite when peace is all he should know? Are there some followers of gods that Azattans feel are beyond redemption? Those have been the nagging questions in the back of my mind regarding deity relations.

One more question, should followers of illegal gods who must worship in secret like Corathites be openly aggressive towards opposing gods publicly? The smart corathite cleric I would think would keep his disdain under wraps for fear of being burned at the stake, since its a dead giveaway once he starts RPing his diety relationship chart. What better way to hide his religion from the public than to pretend to be friends with the neighborhood paladin? Trickery is part of his portfolio, after all. I never saw Rufus or Chanda wear their deity relationships on their sleeves, which is precisely what made them such good Corathites.

[Weeblie]

Just a short answer here, as I don't have much time for a longer ones.

The strange deity conflicts are generally steeming from a particular event and less due to theological grounds. Could for example be so that to fight the evil of the world, either an old artifact of Toran had to be sacrificed or an old one from Prunilla. And if the party were of Toranites, doing the later would have been the likely outcome, although it afterwards created a huge gap between two otherwise good gods.

I did of course just made that story up now but I hope you do get the point...

As for a big clarficiation of what I consider, a good point of attack for hostile deity relationships, and this especially being true for evil/"bad" deities: You can be friendly, chatty, like any other close friend. But if it comes to the point that your "enemy" needs your help and your own god/goddess gains nothing from it, then you should avoid giving that aid and perhaps even try to push it towards an even bigger failure!

[ShiffDrgnhrt]

I'd wanna know why Beryl, a God purely of Craft from what I know of the Dogma, is "unfriendly" with Toran...

[Kirbiana]

I always figured that Beryl, being a little on the tricksy side in order to get sparkly things snuck out of dark places, didn't always see eye to eye with the stand-up lawful goodness of Toran. I RP the unfriendliness more as 'pulling the leg' of any state cops -- er -- Toranites my little gnome happens to know and then completely disregarding their orders about where she can legally park her ox.

[Dorganath]

I'll answer a couple of these questions, though you may not like the answers.

First and foremost, the reason why one deity does not like another really only needs to make sense to that deity and no one else. I know that sounds a lot like "Shut up and do what you're told" but that's not quite what I'm saying. In an IC sense, who are we to know the minds of our gods? In an OOC sense, Leanthar and probably EdTheKet have their reasons for designing the relations as they have. Some of these relations have been shaped due to in-game actions. Others are the result of a vast backstory which is not common knowledge among commoners, adventurers, clergy, players and almost every GM. I can honestly tell you that I do not know the exact reason for most of the deity relations, especially the ones that seem odd. For most of them though, they are simple matters of disagreement between philosophies and dogma.

Regarding some of the specific cases raised:

With respect to Aeridinites and Corathites, they're pretty much in extreme opposition. Aeridin teaches the sanctity and purity of life, where Corath is all about corruption, death, etc. Aeridin does not require his clerics to heal everyone, as death is a part of life, so an Aeridinite cleric doesn't have to go out of his way to heal followers of enemy gods. He can...and an instance or two might be seen as tolerable depending on the situation, but as a regular occurrence, it shouldn't happen. Should an Aeridinite deal peacefully with a Corathite? Sure unless there was no other choice, but that doesn't mean they should become too friendly or willingly and freely offer his god's healing and such to a follower of Corath.

Az'attans are perhaps the exception to the whole thing, as Az'atta has a dogma of redemption and all are worthy of such. So that means that an Az'attan cleric may heal or raise a follower of an enemy god, but that such actions might be part of a process of bringing said follower to redemption rather than just a regular grouping up thing.

In both cases, intent aside, certain means of aiding enemies (i.e. raise dead/resurrection) comes at a cost to the cleric, and that too should be RPed and not just shrugged off.

I know a lot of people want to know "Why?" for those cases where it seems odd. Unfortunately, I don't know. And if I knew but Leanthar and/or EdTheKet did not wish the information to be let out, then I still could not tell you.

If I had to speculate, which I do often, I'd say the reasoning behind not making the details of these relationships well-known is quite simple. It either has to do with plot-level events in the past, present and future and/or it has to do with the fact that by exposing the details of these relationships a lot of other important and relatively obscure lore would be exposed as well. Perhaps a few people in all the world (the whole Layo world, not just those few adventurers in our little cross-section) know just a bit of such details, some are likely lost to time while others occurred solely in the Heavens, where there are far too few mortal witnesses to tell the tale.

Believe me, I understand the curiosity of the community in such regards, as I share it too...not for my character's understanding but for my own. But then I'm like that sometimes. Even so, I understand and respect the reasons why this information is not in the public knowledge.

[Varka]

Same playground but other topic.

You have the written Lore, history and common rules to play by which works for both deities and in some way races. Let us call it the theoretically part.

Then you have time zones, numbers of players and their deities, the moral , It should be fun to play the game. Let us call it the practically part.

Further more and last you have updates. Like new resting time which simply works without doing anything and then you have the Verbal Laws like this one.

Who do you think will throw an IC and OOC friendship of 1 month or 3 years to the ground simply because and Verbal Law is stated? (could not find a better word than law at this point)

There is only one way which would maybe make that theoretically part achievable but a 100 percent guarantee is not given.

This is not written to anyone specific. It merely another point of view and few things to consider.

[Dorganath]

Good and valid question.

I might also ask in return, why throw out 5+ RL years of lore and backstory, systems and in-game effort because our characters wish to be best buddies with followers of enemies of their deities?

But that's not really what's being said.

To say that clerics of Aeridin and Corath, knowing the faiths of each other, should go on picnics together is rather absurd. And if somehow this is backed up by in-game RP, then it was probably bad RP, unless for example the Corathite went through great lengths to deceive and misdirect.

Can clerics, paladins and followers of enemy and unfriendly deities interact and associate? Absolutely. Can they travel together? Of course. Can there be mutual respect? Surely! Should they be all hugs and smiles? Absolutely not. Should there be an ever-present tension? I'd say that would be appropriate.

And remember, the requirement of portraying deity relations falls most strongly on clerics, paladins and Champions, where each applies. The non-divine followers of deities might be aware of such things, but may not care as much nor are they under the same indoctrination and responsibility to portray these things. I think it's good if they do, of course.

[Dorganath]

Incidentally, this is not a new rule....it's always been the case.

Divinely empowered characters are required to agree to upholding the dogma and preferences of their respective deities when they submit their characters. Prior to that, it was just understood, but I guess enough people didn't understand that and so we added that requirement at submission time.

[lonnarin]

Originally Posted by Dorganath

Can clerics, paladins and followers of enemy and unfriendly deities interact and associate? Absolutely. Can they travel together? Of course. Can there be mutual respect? Surely! Should they be all hugs and smiles? Absolutely not. Should there be an ever-present tension? I'd say that would be appropriate.

Very good point there. It's not that they can't coexist, it's that they do so in a pretty turbulent manner.

[ShiffDrgnhrt]

One question:

It's clear that the "divine" classes should adhere to the Diety Relations strongly, but what happens when say, A Toranite Cleric would meet a Berylite Jeweler, or say a Corathite scholar? NOT devout worshippers of unliked/hated dieties, but "commoners" that merely respect a god for one reason or another...

[Dorganath]

Well if said jeweler or scholar or whatever was blatantly overt about their faith, then the cleric should act appropriately.

In the Berylite case, the cleric may hold his tongue or indicate distaste or whatever seems appropriate at the time and in keeping with what Toran thinks about Beryl.

In the Corathite case....well, Toranites pretty much view Corath worship as an illegal act, so again, the cleric should act appropriately.

That said, if the relationship is not known, then there's no reason to act any differently.

Also, remember that Clerics have that wonderful cantrip Divine Relation. It doesn't tell specific deities, but it does tell the relationship between the cleric's deity and the target's.

A handy tool...people should use it.

[ShiffDrgnhrt]

Well I have to say that there are a NUMBER of relationships IG and IC with PCs of not necessarily hated but unfriendly gods that manage to get along well enough. Now I'm not gonna say that its right or whatever for an RP server to have such things ignored, but each situation should be looked at individually... Sure, my Berylite Jeweler IS friends with a Toranite Cleric, and they are both very friendly, but at the Same time Shiff is rather open about not liking OTHER Toranites, and his friend knows this. Now whether its BAD RP or not, I'm not gonna say, but each situation should be looked at first before some kind of punishment, retribution or whatever is dealt.

[Skywatcher]

I think another twist on this is the alignment and dogma of the specific deity. For instance Toran is a compassionate god with an emphasis on forgiveness and restoration. There is a particular Mistite who has declared that she would watch Clarissa bleed to death before healing her. That's an understandable RP from the Mistite perspective but when that same Mistite was trapped in the bottom of the rift and needed rescuing and ressurecting a couple of Toranites came to her aid since it is in their dogma to help others in need. The Toranite perspective would still be one of tension since it would be understood that there would be no recognition of the sacrifice involved and no thanks for the help but would feel pity for the one incapable of understanding the importance of that compassion. So there is still tension on both sides but different actions are both justified based on the dogma of the deities.

The botttom line is that deity relations and personal relationships are very complex. In RL there are lots of people who are friends that have divergent beliefs. So it depends on whether the situation is asking your character to act against your deities dogma or not as to whether a particular action or friendship should be avoided.

[Dorganath]

Originally Posted by ShiffDrgnhrt

Now whether its BAD RP or not, I'm not gonna say, but each situation should be looked at first before some kind of punishment, retribution or whatever is dealt.

Of course.

No one is saying that this is a cold, hard rule without any flexibility. What is being said though is that some have taken that flexibility and pushed it far past its normal limits.

As I said above, there can be relationships of whatever kind between followers of unfriendly or enemy deities...the nature of those relationships depend on circumstances, but the context of those relationships should be colored by the deity relationships as much as is appropriate for the characters involved.

In your case, the Berylite would probably have far less of an issue with hanging around Toranites, but the Toranite cleric may see the Berylite as perhaps misguided or whatever. He may not treat the Berylite as an enemy or even in an unfriendly manner necessarily, but then their respective faiths may always be an on-going issue of friction.

Play smart, people.

[Dorganath]

Originally Posted by Skywatcher

I think another twist on this is the alignment and dogma of the specific deity. For instance Toran is a compassionate god with an emphasis on forgiveness and restoration. There is a particular Mistite who has declared that she would watch Clarissa bleed to death before healing her. That's an understandable RP from the Mistite perspective but when that same Mistite was trapped in the bottom of the rift and needed rescuing and ressurecting a couple of Toranites came to her aid since it is in their dogma to help others in need. The Toranite perspective would still be one of tension since it would be understood that there would be no recognition of the sacrifice involved and no thanks for the help but would feel pity for the one incapable of understanding the importance of that compassion. So there is still tension on both sides but different actions are both justified based on the dogma of the deities.

The botttom line is that deity relations and personal relationships are very complex. In RL there are lots of people who are friends that have divergent beliefs. So it depends on whether the situation is asking your character to act against your deities dogma or not as to whether a particular action or friendship should be avoided.

That's not Toran's only focus, but it's important all the same. And often parts of the dogma of any deity may come into conflict with themselves, and it's how that conflict is played out that can make things most interesting. If it's just shrugged off because one inconvenient aspect is simply tossed away or ignored, then that's not really keeping with the way things should be.

And yep, this makes things complex, and people should play it complex and not distill it down to what's simple and easy in all cases....which of course is the "Everyone is my friend" approach.

And as I said before, the degree to which people should take deity relationships and dogmas into account is directly related to the "grade" of their faiths. Champions are pretty much in lock-step, Paladins and Clerics coming next, followed by non-divine followers in order of decreasing responsibility.