Dark Elves

[Interia_Discordius]

What's the view on these guys? I assumed they were hated, wretched creatures on the surface, but I see a lot of tolerance for them from others.

On that note, where do giants, trolls, orcs, and other humanoid races stand with the common people? What about kobolds and goblins?

[EdTheKet]

Dark elves:

Hate them, kill on sight ask questions later, they're evil, bad, don't trust them, "they killed my family in Hlint/Port Hempstead/Spellgard with their raid", evil incarnate, steal your children, burn your crops, rape your wives, kill your husbands, use your children in dark rituals, poison you, backstab you, hate you, and so on.

where do giants, trolls, orcs, and other humanoid races stand with the common people? What about kobolds and goblins?

These all scare the hell out of them.


Oh, and "Surely there's lots of good dark elves" is not true. There are MILLIONS of evil dark elves and people know it. They've conducted tons of raids and sieges over the centuries, their religion tells them to rule over all, so a handfull of Az'attans and some adventurers are not going to change the general populace's opinion.

[ShiffDrgnhrt]

Funny how many "good" people like dark elves these days...

*gets his hunting crossbow and goes looking for Sion and Ni'Haer(?)*

[Interia_Discordius]

Righto. Thanks. I just needed to know how a typical Llane would think of people who protect dark elves and the like as well as the races themselves.

Muchos appreciated!

[EdTheKet]

Originally Posted by Interia_Discordius

I just needed to know how a typical Llane would think of people who protect dark elves

Traitors to their kind, collaborators, fiends, murderers, <insert lots of other bad words>.

[Link092]

actually, Shiff, I was expecting WAY more hostility, and it never happened, so I rolled with it. I'm thinking of moving Sion to an evil alignment later, rather than CN after his 10th lvl... but the hunting would definitely be enjoyed...




Thanks to all of those who tried hunting/killing/eradicating/insulting sion.

[Link092]

Originally Posted by Interia_Discordius

Righto. Thanks. I just needed to know how a typical Llane would think of people who protect dark elves and the like as well as the races themselves.

Muchos appreciated!

and most likely, you would take that smarminess of hers and times it by ten................ thousand

[Link092]

and another thought of mine came to be... I realize that Hektor never got the nasty treatment I would expect either.... I was hoping for someone to run by and give the whole "Hulk smash!" sermon about him, and why he should be ran off/killed....

[Alatriel]

Every time my characters act with hostility towards dark elves they get shunned or told how wrong it is to think badly of dark elves. Sion is only proving Daniella right, not changing her opinion.

[Link092]

Originally Posted by Alatriel

Every time my characters act with hostility towards dark elves they get shunned or told how wrong it is to think badly of dark elves. Sion is only proving her right, not changing her opinion.

glad to help.




EDITING because I don't wish to make another post....:

You know, there is another thread about this here.

[EdTheKet]

I will just quote myself

Originally Posted by EdTheKet

The "average Hlintian" considers them evil.

Forgive the use of old names

[EdTheKet]

Originally Posted by Alatriel

Every time my characters act with hostility towards dark elves they get shunned or told how wrong it is to think badly of dark elves. Sion is only proving Daniella right, not changing her opinion.

By PCs I take it. Something to consider: every time she shuns a dark elf, she gets support from all the non-displayed-in-game commoners and other folk close to her (including clergy NPC!) that they are evil and she is right in her shunning and hostility.

[Link092]

and little angry halflings that happen to be part of the Toran clergy. *nods sagely, and presents Lyr*

[minerva]

Too rich that Daniella and Sophia actually agree on something !

[Link092]

Originally Posted by minerva

Too rich that Daniella and Sophia actually agree on something !

the angry halfling? or the dark elf?

[xiaobeibi]

Originally Posted by Alatriel

Every time my characters act with hostility towards dark elves they get shunned or told how wrong it is to think badly of dark elves. Sion is only proving Daniella right, not changing her opinion.

Yep too true.

Most treat darkelves as a kind of misunderstood black elves suffering from prejudice. Not like a homicidal, evil, enslaving, torturing etc... people who has killed and looted their way across the millenia

[Link092]

Originally Posted by xiaobeibi

Yep too true.

Most treat darkelves as a kind of misunderstood black elves suffering from prejudice. Not like a homicidal, evil, enslaving, torturing etc... people wheo has killed and looted their way across the millenia

ya... I'm trying to get Ni'hear in trouble with the toranites now.... *shifty eyes*

[ShiffDrgnhrt]

Don't have to. Tyra already has plans

[geloooo]

Originally Posted by Link092

ya... I'm trying to get Ni'hear in trouble with the toranites now.... *shifty eyes*

Let's see how far you'll get me in trouble.

[Link092]

do it! do it! do it! *chants*

[ycleption]

Originally Posted by EdTheKet

By PCs I take it. Something to consider: every time she shuns a dark elf, she gets support from all the non-displayed-in-game commoners and other folk close to her (including clergy NPC!) that they are evil and she is right in her shunning and hostility.

*Addressing an angry commoner* Put away that pitchfork, it's just one, and he's no threat...

*makes shooing motions to the crowd gathering around the half-orc*

*eyes the mob warily, trying to gauge its mood before speaking up* Alright, go back to your homes everyone. I'll escort this dark elf out of town peacefully, there's no need for you to be worried.


Okay, it may be a force-emoting npcs, but the point is there are ways of reminding other players that commoners are people too, even in absence of a DM, and even if you play a character who willingly associates with dark elves.

This conversation comes up from time to time, (I made the mistake of bringing it up on IRC the other day), and I think there is a consensus that the PC and NPC communities have different attitudes. There may be valid reasons for this, but that shouldn't give players free rein to pretend like the NPCs don't exist.

[Link092]

After an encounter win one of Min's PC's I occasionally RP "people watching", per se. Never thought of it, but it is fun!

[Alatriel]

Personally, I think that everyone who helped hide dark elves, especially ones who were known, and running from the law, should have been brought up on charges of harboring a criminal rather than allowed to speak on his behalf as a "character witness" but that's just me *shrugs* As was said before, it's not a case of racial prejudice. It's not that they just have a different color skin. It's like people are forgetting the dark ages, and forgetting everything that dark elves stand for. Just to assume that a dark elf pc is good simply because they are a pc? umm... no.

[Link092]

not my rules...

*shrugs, the pokes Alatriel playfully before running far far away*




EDIT: then again... you could always ask for appeal or something....

[Link092]

*looks around, then does the "I killed the thread!" dance*

[Lord Dark]

I've read all the posts above and I do admit that if I was Lance, Daniella, Aeronn, or any of his other paladin friends, I would probably press charges agianst Tod for harboring a fugitive or helping one get away even if the trial has already happened. His tolerance is almost the same as his tolerance for a fellow Halfling, I have been using the "Oh, he/she is a PC, he/she must be good and lawful!" to sort of metagame Tod's trust in that character. He trusts quickly, that's just him, but now that I think about it, he has gone too far and I have done a poor job in keeping the game realistic in that area. I'll be trying to do better in the future, I promise!

[twidget658]

All it takes is one word to the courts and Sion will be locked away. When I say 'locked away', I mean the PC will be non-playable. No execution, no exile. Both of these have a chance for escape and freedom. He will be chained for life. Once I see this statement made IC, the authorities will seize Sion, and it will be over. Judge Kirus made the terms and even told Sion what it meant in great detail. If Sion is willing to try to fool the courts, then he is in for a rude awakening. That was the only chance he has to stay alive and for Link092 to keep his PC. I will be posting Judge Kirus' deliberations in a few.

[Link092]

If you need to, chain him away. don't go far out of the way to keep him playable... just a thought.

[Link092]

I think Interia's thread was hi-jacked....

*bows* apologies.

[lonnarin]

As to Interia's original question, the goblins do feel a good amount of prejudice in the lands. We just attempt to be as cute and useful enough to be cast aside as a minor nuisance. Though some, such as the Lightbringers and Daniella absolutely refuse to group with them, which is great. Cute as they are, the Wargpack is hardly a group of boyscouts! The only reasons we haven't been crushed by angry mobs are 1) we remain garbed at all times, so you have to get to know them a little first before figuring out the secret that we're not just feral halflings, 2) they are incredibly diplomatic, and try to pass themselves off as innocent defenders of nature as much as possible. We make it a point to point out alternate targets like the undead, werewolves and Rael as out enemies, to try and divert any fear against us into mutual assistance. We look out for those who are good to us, and make certain to hammer out pacts as we go along. 3) we are almost always in the wilds, so the common folk don't really see us enough to seek us out and 4) should anybody want some of this, Nonac is standing right behind them with blades drawn and half a dozen dire wolves in the wait, just that they dont see it!

Despite the various downsides to playing a monstrous character, namely lack of commerce and easy grouping, we have been having a blast playing them. Grovel has been more fun than any other character I have ever submitted, mostly due to that vagabond "exile of the wastelands" aspect to it. The goblin tribe has its own sense of community, and we are always looking for new blood of whatever species, (especially dark elves!) so long as they are useful and stick up for us in kind.

My deep dwarf Gloom treads a nice tightrope of being unabashedly evil to an extreme, but lawful to a T. With him its an entirely different game; while the goblins try to downplay their evil qualities to dismissible savagery, Gloom almost basks in his role as a Prantz-born tyrant. Dark Dwarves now hold a surface city of the greatest renown, and have military stations positioned around Leringard and Mariner's Hold since the dragon attacks. Rael's massive donations to the rebuilding efforts have bought their race some minor acceptance, at least by the lawful authorities... but those with any good in them should rightly fear them as the heartless slavers that they are. The whole adage, "it is better to be feared than to be loved" rings true to them. For all of the recent "benevolence" Rael has shown in recent events, there should be some foreboding sentiment that with every good deed, there is a sinister motive with strings attached behind it. Remember the recent atrocities, namely the executions of Waylend's daughter and the poor starving deep gnomes of Beryl. The relations between Mistone and Prantz would be much like the Cold-War relations between the US and the USSR. Sure they're not at war currently, but MOST of the folks in Mistone would ask themselves... "why the heck not!" And ALL Voraxians should want to kill Deep Dwarves on sight. Grenna has done a really good job RPing this, as have Chaynce and Shiff. Every meeting with Gloom invariably ends in death threats or a trip to the arena.

Please feel free to HATE Gloom. He is evil above and beyond most of his ilk, delighting in torturing his enemy as they die, making artwork out of their remains as macabre trophies. Trouble Tempest saw him in action one day and utterly refused to have anything to do with him afterward. Every Voraxian should look to a deep dwarf with utter contempt and war on their minds. Most Dorandites have cooled relations with them, finding them useful in gaining prescious ore for crafting. Bjorn on the other hand hates them to an extreme... you will NEVER see him set foot in Prantz unless it is to do war. (he even placed bounties onRael's head before, and is considered an enemy of the state, or even a terrorist!) This is mostly due to Rael's actions against the Berylites and his allegiances to Bloodstone however, and not a racial hatred. Prantz is something to be feared and reviled, and fought against. If any of you surfacers knew half the stuff they were responsible for in that city, you would do well to cast out the deep dwarves even sooner than the dark elves. At least the dark elves are disorganized! The deep dwarves have kind of insidiously installed themselves into the global politics and power stucture, and are scheming on par with Milara these days.

Still, nobody else gathers for less than Gloom is willing to be paid! So aye, not only is he evil, he just outsourced your greenstone fortunes... doubly evil!

I kind of made Annie just to offset the blight that Gloom was putting into my soul. You make that one character so evil that you start passing out at night to have dreams of torturing gnomes and slaughtering puppies, and you just NEED that little happy little brownie girl picking flowers, pick-me-up in your heart!

[geloooo]

That's it! I'm moving to Prantz!

[Hellblazer]

Originally Posted by twidget658

All it takes is one word to the courts and Sion will be locked away. When I say 'locked away', I mean the PC will be non-playable. No execution, no exile. Both of these have a chance for escape and freedom. He will be chained for life. Once I see this statement made IC, the authorities will seize Sion, and it will be over. Judge Kirus made the terms and even told Sion what it meant in great detail. If Sion is willing to try to fool the courts, then he is in for a rude awakening. That was the only chance he has to stay alive and for Link092 to keep his PC. I will be posting Judge Kirus' deliberations in a few.

I have to question this though. Forgive me about it but still. Since the 2 years + I have been playing here, this is the first time I see someone push the limit of limiting the playability of a pc of a player to the point of making him totally unplayable permanently. This, to me, pauses two problems. First the persons that are here are here to have fun, and this is something that can ultimately have it's negative effect on that.

Second, the same things should have been done to all others dark elves pc's. This is the first time I see this pushed this far in my two years+ here for a dark elf pc, and that is with many Dark elves haven been played and some even discovered as dark elves publicly.

I have seen two RL months limboness, and maybe more, a few times (I remember the druid (who wasn't a darky) that had killed the tailor because he wanted the gold bear, sorry names are my worst nightmare) But permanent limbo, is almost like having a death sentence being made permanent, while the soul mother didn't take the last strand. Personally, and although I agree that actions have consequences and you have to also accept how other races would react to you, this is still very much pushing the envelope toward depriving someone of being able to have fun with a pc he has taken the time to develop prior to submission and afterward. Now if the player is okay with that, that is fine, but this is a thin line to walk on in my opinion.

[Script Wrecked]

Assuming Sion has any friends, doesn't this give them the opportunity for something like a CDQ to (try and) break him out of jail?

Doesn't this action give the other dark elves out there real impetus to remain incognito?

Actions should have consequences, otherwise its all rather meaningless.

Regards,

Script Wrecked.

[Tanman]

Since the 2 years + I have been playing here, this is the first time I see someone push the limit of limiting the playability of a pc of a player to the point of making him totally unplayable permanently. This, to me, pauses two problems. First the persons that are here are here to have fun, and this is something that can ultimately have it's negative effect on that.

@HellBlazer, playing any monstrous race, or any hated race is no walk in the park. While i to let everybody have fun, that -doesn't- mean that we just let things slide. There comes a point where we will say final is final. Remember Twidget didn't say that it will be the next time or the time after if whatever happens. He just said, that it could....and that is part of the fun of playing a Dark Elf and the other monstrous races out there. ;-)

[Dorganath]

Originally Posted by Hellblazer

I have to question this though. Forgive me about it but still. Since the 2 years + I have been playing here, this is the first time I see someone push the limit of limiting the playability of a pc of a player to the point of making him totally unplayable permanently. This, to me, pauses two problems. First the persons that are here are here to have fun, and this is something that can ultimately have it's negative effect on that.

Second, the same things should have been done to all others dark elves pc's. This is the first time I see this pushed this far in my two years+ here for a dark elf pc, and that is with many Dark elves haven been played and some even discovered as dark elves publicly.

I have seen two RL months limboness, and maybe more, a few times (I remember the druid (who wasn't a darky) that had killed the tailor because he wanted the gold bear, sorry names are my worst nightmare) But permanent limbo, is almost like having a death sentence being made permanent, while the soul mother didn't take the last strand. Personally, and although I agree that actions have consequences and you have to also accept how other races would react to you, this is still very much pushing the envelope toward depriving someone of being able to have fun with a pc he has taken the time to develop prior to submission and afterward. Now if the player is okay with that, that is fine, but this is a thin line to walk on in my opinion.

It's not the first time.

The most prominent example is the Soul of a Lost Ancient finale with the group that went after Bloodstone and his bloodwell directly. It was on the table, and suggested by Leanthar, that a horrible catastrophe could well cause anyone involved to be lost (i.e. dead) permanently. This is on the order of 20-30 characters, all of whom were high-to-epic levels. Joining and continuing on that quest came with the stipulation of accepting your character's fate, one way or the other.

Decisions on making a character unplayable or NPCed are never entered into lightly. They won't be done at the whim of a single GM, and they won't be done without clear and OOC communication with the player. Ultimately though it comes down to player actions. Most times in the past, players have backed down when the potential concequences have been spelled out.

[Rowana]

Another example, a little closer to topic at hand. There is a PC rotting in the cells of Hempstead for pushing the monstrous race limitation too far and then giving up on their own trial.

After numerous infractions, warnings IC and OOC, the character was finally caught and given a trial. There was some attempt at escape at the trial that failed and then locking away of the PC permanently.

~row

[lonnarin]

I'm all for making monstrous folks incognito, but just make certain not to metagame knowledge of somebody's race because it pops up on the server status page. EVERYBODY tries to peek under Nonac and Grovels hood, and often accuse the fully armored, human sounding and gnome-looking Mangle-Or of goblinhood on sight. And yet, have they ever ONCE tried to peek under Willy's hood? No, only because they look at the server page and see "Forrest Gnome". Meanwhile, he's dressed almost exactly like the other gobbos, short, green and hooded. At least somebody should accuse him one of these days, but the player, not the character, knows what Willy really is, so the character acts on player knowledge.

The problem with "all dark elves should remain incognito" is thus.. metagamers spoil it. Then you have hooded dark elves just walking through hempstead fields getting chased and questions and waylaid by paladins, while a similarly dressed surface elf gets a free ride. Somebody should just make a surface elf wizard in a black hood with spider jewelry, like Mith. You'll notice quickly... nobody accuses you because they read your bio or peeked at the screen. We already blanked the deity field on the server page because of this, maybe its time to blank the subrace field as well?

The solution? Some dark elves should go on a quest to make a cursed potion that turns ALL peoples skin black, and dump in in the Hempstead well. Suddenly there's a spike in the dark elf populations, and the townguards must execute themselves on sight. Of course that would not happen, because the NPC townguards would just check the server status page.

Of course if you hit a high level, most will metagame that you are a good dark elf because they see the purple text above your head. People tend to only chase after and persecute the monstrous races with yellow, green or white text... skin color is moot once the text gets red or purple. That whole self-preservation thing. I so wish that this feature was eliminated as well... yon multi-color floaty texts.

[ShiffDrgnhrt]

While I agree 100% with you, Lonn, Would I be wrong to assume a Goblin Grovel who has a Goblin voice set to really stick it out, would sound QUITE different from Willy, who is a gnome...?

And wouldn't an orc or ogre sound different then the average man?

Sure, Dark Elves and Regular elves prolly don't sound that different, but do we know that?

Oh, and lets be honest people. Has anyone here worn a hood that was so deep and dark you couldn't see a face in it at all? No. They don't exist, why? Because you wouldn't even be able to see out of it! If light can't get into the hood, your eyes have nothing to see! Did we forget biology? Retina + Light = Seeing! My point? Unless all these hooded monsters start also wearing veils in their hoods, or Ninja masks as well, and RP the fact or make it know, I'm pretty sure I can see your face. I still roll my Spot check to be fair. The first time I met Grovel I wasn't 100% sure IC, and I stated that, but I have also seen Grovel without his mask or Helmet so he's got a Big sign on his back that reads "Goblin" forever now. So does Ni'Haer. He took his hood off infront of Tyra on the road to Fort Llast, no less. So yes, Metagaming is bad, and its hard to avoid, but how hidden are you really inside that hood? It's a Hood! If you can't see into it, how can someone inside it see out of it!

[lonnarin]

Willy's voice is hideous! He picked Xanos, who sounds like he gargled with battery acid. He also speaks in the first person.

Mith walked around fully garbed in all black as an elf, casting copious amounts of Necromancy. Nobody questioned him, for that matter.

If you look under Grovel's hood, he's wearing a wolf mask.

Point is though, if you MUST peek under ever monstrous person's hood, but just shrug and ignore the Willy's and Miths of the world, then somethings rotten in the state of Denmark.

Tyra has the new suit with the facemask and goggles and no skin showing, how many times have people demanded that the dark elf must unmask?

Now two things really crack me up that I have seen in the past...

1) People seeing dark-elfyness through barkskin or stoneskin. I would run into this all the time with Rakish. What, surface elves get oak and dark elves get birch?

2) The 100% accuracy people have in identifying a druid shifted in animal form. A little cat sits there in the street. Suddenly EVERYBODY at the fountain MUST get up and inspect this cat! If the cat runs off, rather than shrug and go back to their bench as they would with any normal cat, they must CHASE the cat all over town! "You! come back here, cat! Aaaargh!" I keep having this image in my head of some deranged guy sprinting after every cat in town, with little girls crying "NO! You Leave Mister Fluffers alone!" and townguards tackling him.

Sadly, this is all just a combination of human nature and the way Bioware made the engine. One idea for disguises in the next version would be "variable labeling". If there must be floaty text, then make it editable from the player's side. The character file name could be a seperate, hidden and static entity, while the player name that others see above their heads could be anything you think of. "a dark hooded figure", "Cat", "Wolf", "so NOT a dark elf", etc. Also a player portrait blanking feature, so you can choose to display it or not.

[Drizzlin]

Originally Posted by Alatriel

Every time my characters act with hostility towards dark elves they get shunned or told how wrong it is to think badly of dark elves. Sion is only proving Daniella right, not changing her opinion.

You just haven't tried being hostile to the right ones I guess...