Fenrir Thornaxe - Resubmission for Rogue levels

[s0ulz]

Original Biography: http://forums.layonara.com/character...-thornaxe.html

Character Development Thread: http://forums.layonara.com/developme...-defender.html

Fenrir has been on a long journey to prove himself to his father. Ever since he's been working non-stop on his Defensive Stance, which he believes was the best way to once earn his father's respect.

Some time ago though Fenrir realized that static poses can only be taken so far and started to work on a new project. Mobile stances which took his static poses and with key moves makes a fluid motion.

He realized he could only move as much as his little dwarven feet had ever under the load of his heavy armor and finally found the courage to approach a "dancing" type warrior, Angela.

Ever since they have been having sparring lessons and Fenrir has worked rigorously on the footwork. As well as that the Mobile Stances have increased Fenrir's battle awareness and made his strikes more measured and swift.

Thus I'm resubmitting Fenrir for Rogue levels. This has been in the works ever since the middle of summer, though the CDT's themselves were posted from about two weeks ago. Why Rogue? Well I consider the best way to show Fenrir's increased mobility in heavy ranks of tumble. Not many classes offer this and with some advice I came to the conclusion that mechanics wise Rogue made the most sense.

[darkstorme]

This submission is under discussion. We'll get back to you ASAP.

[s0ulz]

Originally Posted by darkstorme

This submission is under discussion. We'll get back to you ASAP.

I'll also add that Akata was the one doing the tutoring and he could not post here, so you can ask him to vouch if you don't believe me

[darkstorme]

Heya.

While the reasoning behind your choice is appreciated, we can't just pick and choose a single (or set) of aspects from a given class - when you become a member of that class, you gain the whole skillset. If a character were to multiclass to Ranger for the Animal Empathy, they would have to justify the Favoured Enemy as well. Likewise, the vast, o'erarching skillset a rogue has given to them (even at first level!) is not mobility or Evasion alone.

In addition, we've come to the consensus that the Rogue class would be a significant departure from Fenrir's solid Dwarven Defender path. As such, it either requires substantially more support, or a CDQ, to reflect that Fenrir is leaving the "immovable wall of honour and steel" tactics of the Dwarven Defenders behind to pursue this new way of life.

Thanks!

[s0ulz]

Originally Posted by darkstorme

Heya.

While the reasoning behind your choice is appreciated, we can't just pick and choose a single (or set) of aspects from a given class - when you become a member of that class, you gain the whole skillset. If a character were to multiclass to Ranger for the Animal Empathy, they would have to justify the Favoured Enemy as well. Likewise, the vast, o'erarching skillset a rogue has given to them (even at first level!) is not mobility or Evasion alone.

In addition, we've come to the consensus that the Rogue class would be a significant departure from Fenrir's solid Dwarven Defender path. As such, it either requires substantially more support, or a CDQ, to reflect that Fenrir is leaving the "immovable wall of honour and steel" tactics of the Dwarven Defenders behind to pursue this new way of life.

Thanks!

While I agree Rogue is a very different class from DD, this will not be a Rogue only thing. Fenrir will take other class levels as well, so I can't show this as a drastic change of life. Also Fenrir is not forgiving his hard-earned Defender status or stances, he's doing something legendary, taking it a step further then everyone has ever done. He won't leave behind anything, he's taking it further and adding to it.

While I'm not against a CDQ, I don't have any idea how you could make one about such technicalities as making something new in the world and increasing his overall mobility. Rogue does have a vast skillset, but Fenrir has no justification and will not ever take half of the skills he has no business with and I'd gladly give up sneak attack if I could.

Either way, I'd gladly take part in a CDQ, but since Fenrir is stuck in Harlas' cave I'm at the brink of losing my mind if I'd have to wait 'that' long to simply do a CDQ. Anyway, drop any ideas if you'd like...

[s0ulz]

Bump! Feedback would be nice, this isn't buried.

[Rowana]

We realize it's not resolved, it is still under discussion and we will get back with you soonest.
~row

[s0ulz]

Originally Posted by Rowana

We realize it's not resolved, it is still under discussion and we will get back with you soonest.
~row

Thanks very much, that's all I need to know. I'll gladly discuss this in person as well if need arises.

[darkstorme]

Hi again!

After extensive discussion, here's the Team's thoughts on the matter:
First and foremost, to be a Rogue is not merely dexterity and gracefulness. If that's what Fenrir's after, the Mobility feat will serve you just as well for in-game purposes. The Rogue ethos is a mindset that is, for the most part, at odds with the Dwarven Defender "immovable object" viewpoint. As such, without a tricky CDQ and a great deal of CDT development which suggests a philosophical shift to the entire Dwarven Defender concept, taking Rogue levels will preclude ever taking a level of Dwarven Defender again.

In that same vein, even before a CDQ could be approved, a bit of further development towards a more Rogue-like pattern of thought would have to take place. Vorax approves of "bravery, war, and valour". I don't think the "better part of valour" applies here. Likewise, the Epic Dwarven Defender is described as "the very definition of [an] immovable object", and one of the first feats granted in the prestige class is the Defensive Stance, where the dwarf cannot move from the spot. (Picture a shield set against the stone, boots set against the ground, and an axe whirling about at anyone in range. The Dwarven Defender (and to a lesser extent, Voraxian) approach seems to be that the dwarf should be a shield between evil and those he protects - to weather their blows and give better than they get. The rogue approach to combat is not to be there when their opponent swings. You can see why there's some trouble reconciling these two classes.

So, to summarize - if Fenrir is approved for Rogue levels, he'll not be going back to take any Dwarven Defender levels.. and it will be a drastic shift in his ethos. To be approved, we need to see a bit more development, and it will likely require a CDQ. (Or more development still.)

If you have any more questions, let us know.

[s0ulz]

Originally Posted by darkstorme

Hi again!

After extensive discussion, here's the Team's thoughts on the matter:
First and foremost, to be a Rogue is not merely dexterity and gracefulness. If that's what Fenrir's after, the Mobility feat will serve you just as well for in-game purposes. The Rogue ethos is a mindset that is, for the most part, at odds with the Dwarven Defender "immovable object" viewpoint. As such, without a tricky CDQ and a great deal of CDT development which suggests a philosophical shift to the entire Dwarven Defender concept, taking Rogue levels will preclude ever taking a level of Dwarven Defender again.

In that same vein, even before a CDQ could be approved, a bit of further development towards a more Rogue-like pattern of thought would have to take place. Vorax approves of "bravery, war, and valour". I don't think the "better part of valour" applies here. Likewise, the Epic Dwarven Defender is described as "the very definition of [an] immovable object", and one of the first feats granted in the prestige class is the Defensive Stance, where the dwarf cannot move from the spot. (Picture a shield set against the stone, boots set against the ground, and an axe whirling about at anyone in range. The Dwarven Defender (and to a lesser extent, Voraxian) approach seems to be that the dwarf should be a shield between evil and those he protects - to weather their blows and give better than they get. The rogue approach to combat is not to be there when their opponent swings. You can see why there's some trouble reconciling these two classes.

So, to summarize - if Fenrir is approved for Rogue levels, he'll not be going back to take any Dwarven Defender levels.. and it will be a drastic shift in his ethos. To be approved, we need to see a bit more development, and it will likely require a CDQ. (Or more development still.)

If you have any more questions, let us know.

First of all thanks for the feedback, I've been waiting for this.

I can totally understand where your coming from and that you have to protect us all from the greater evil of powergaming and powermulticlassing. So I perfectly agree that once Fenrir steps on the slippery slope of Roguedom, he shouldn't step back on the DD path.

What I disagree about though is forgiving his DD honor and valor. I can only think of a few very awful things that could push a dwarf off the way of Dwarven Defenders and Vorax. Why? Because while the Dwarven Defender is the stalwart protector who is visualized as a standing brick wall or worse, Fenrir is an innovator, or at least I want him to be and see him as one, in the field of Dwarven combat stances. After receiving the Hide, he sees no need to stand put, it takes out much of his effectiveness. Yet he does not want to give up his hard work with the immobile stances and decided to do something never heard before.

If that isn't enough for a start of his philosophical shift of DDs, there are going to have to be a lot of dead relatives or divine intervention to push him even further. I want Fenrir to do something special with the whole combat stance part of DDs and someday teach it on...

I also agree to a CDQ, but as you yourself said it, it's going to be a tricky one to push Fenrir on the Rogue path, yet leave him amongst the honorable dwarves, Defenders.

[s0ulz]

So can I please get some feedback on this please. I'd like to know whether I have to forcefully push Fenrir off his honor path, or can still keep that intact while just obtaining the Rogue skillset/mentality via a CDQ?

Thanks

[Rowana]

This has been discussed with your recent concerns of honor.

A Dwarven Defender (as you know) is the dwarf's dwarf. The shift to a rogue from this is going to call many things into question for Fenrir, not only inwardly but outward as well. If Fenrir continues this path with a CDQ a few issues related to his continued honor or falling from grace will be addressed. There can be no guarantee of his continued place of honor amongst the dwarves, and most importantly with his sponsors.

In short, your chosen shift to the rogue package may have potentially serious repercussions depending the result of your CDQ. If you wish to continue on this path, please select your GM and point them to this thread.

Thank you,
~row

[s0ulz]

Thanks a lot for the input Row, darkstorme and the whole team behind the scenes who have given input.

I'll give it a thought and discuss with Chongo for the CDQ.

You all have been very helpful!