Grovel Foaming Wolf

[lonnarin]

Name: Grovel Foaming Wolf
Bioware Name: karma_virus
Age: 18 for a goblin
Gender: Alpha Male
Race: Goblin
Diety & spiritual views: Doesn't worship a god, they are just part of nature. He likes Shadon and Branderback for their cunningness, and thinks Pyrtechon is the world's greatest predator... and by killing him one becomes the absolute top of the food chain. He hates Mist because bad weather makes for uncomfortable hunting. He also reveres the spirits of animals live and dead, and has a strange fascination with the moon from his canine upbringing, singing to her at night when he howls. To him, the moon is just as sacred as the earth. He prays to the earth in day and to the moon at night. He reveres and studies star formations and looks for omens in everything. He respects the druidic hierarchy as a necessary alliance to keep the wilds from being converted into wretched cities. he also prays to the spirits of the animals he's killed to aid him, especially when using transmutations to enhance his abilities (Bull's Strength, Cat's Grace, etc) and when he shapechanges.
Class: Druid
Alignment: NE

Personality: Grovel is a very slimy and sly individual, and very full of rage against those who cross him. While he is more ordered than most goblins through his worg-pack hunter hierarchical mentality, he has left little of his race's penchant for evil cunning behind. He feels that nature is merciless, and so should he be... and would no more pass up a free meal of baby rabbits than any other wolf would in the wild. The only love he has is for his pack, whom are those he shares the hunt with, and the freedom of the wilds. He disdains humans and dwarves for their penchant for hunting worgs, but respects elves who typically give as much in return to the woods as they take. (though respect does little to temper his hatred for them as they hunt goblins such as he) He delights in howling during combat to bring fear to his enemy, for like worgs he cherishes when the prey panics and flees. He is not above stabbing somebody in the back or throttling them in their sleep to get what he wants, and considers cheap cunning to be the key hunter's asset. Rather than rage blindly at a foe by himself, he prefers to plot and plan and strike at them at their weakest, or use force of numbers to overpower them. He is also not very picky about what or who he eats. He is ravenous and views the food chain as the measure of one's power. The hunter is as powerful as the sum of the prey he has feasted on, and that by eating them, they join in the hunt. He always strives to eat something bigger to prove his own worth to himself, a wee little napoleonic complex of the belly.

---------------------
It was Fear in the Month of Famine. The tribe was starving, cold it was. I and my brothers and sisters played in the litter pen, fed pieces of dwarf and human caravan runners by our hunters. But then, the feedings grew less and less, and the cold grew more. Dark ages they were, black skies and pain. Call me Grovel cause was smallest, had to grovel for food rather than fight, not even good at stealing. I was weaker then most, the runt of the litter, so the fathers decided it would be time to eat me. I bit them when they grabbed me so I could drop, and sprinted off through the snow as fast as I could... shortly they would not follow me, for blizzard had come. I was little more than 6 or 7 at the time, still a goblin whelp.

Very cold I marched on, till legs grow blue and not carry me anymore. See cave and crawl inside till pass out. When awoke, was surrounded by worgs, growling, ready to eat me. But one worg stopped them cause her cubs liked to play with Grovel, little ones thought because we both small might be another cub. Mother begrudgingly listen to pups because me know favorite game of pups, "stick tug of war" and "where is da meat?". "Besides", she said, "it's just a goblin, we will eat him later if we want". Grovel was taken in by pack but not allowed to suckle with litter, for mother worg, while have mercy for Grovel enough not to let him be eaten, was still more obsessed with own cubs than Grovel. Grovel try to suckle, but she nip at his face, bit him, drew blood! Grovel make do by eating fleas and ticks off the worgs' backs, whih they no mind... they seem to like cause fleas and ticks itch so much where they cannot scratch. Was uneasy peace between wolves and Grovel at first, but they no attack cause say I smell special, not like other goblin.

By the 12th or 13th month of Madness, (ie: 12-13 years) ticks make Grovel bigger, big enough to join the hunt with pack! While not fast or fierce like worg brothers, Grovel smart, so easy to trick them. Grovel throw stick into bushes and they chase, then steal food... hahah, idiots! Big alpha papa not like grovel, try to eat many times, but paws not good for climbing. Grovel laugh at him and hit in head with branches till go away... but know what need to do. Sleep in tree I do, wait until dark when all other worgs sleeping, then creep back into den. Then I take sharp stone and slit alpha's throat as he sleep! Howl victory and feed his corpse to pack, kill alpha and feed him to others, no other worg fight with Grovel now! Now Grovel UNDERSTAND natures law... kill or be killed! Grovel craftier than worgs, make sure to kill upstarts in sleep or by "accidents" when they start to challenge me. Worgs learn fear, and even better... obedience! They understand treachery and murder and that if they no obey, they get poisoned in night or wind up eating broken glass.

Pack follow me to hunt now, am smarter than they. Warn them of the hunters' traps, nasty bite that nip at paw when try to grab the meat, but I am smarter... use stick to trip trap, then eat meat! Then, hahah... Grovel wail like hurt wolf and hunter comes... that is when pack in hiding leap out and hunt him! *Grovel teach worgs to take extra time with human... bite him so that he bleeds slowly and wears himself down running, shrieks in terror as we howl! It is right for humans to fear us, what they do to pack and to woods, hunting us only for skin and leaving meat behind while we are starving... is mockery! Humans pay, make them bleed slow, eat the face before bite at the throat, sometimes even torture him with his own trap jaws. Snap! over and over on human foot, crack of bones break! make him feel the suffer of a hundred worgs. Grovel enjoy torture, make me feel bigger when they scream! Make him teach me his words, or chop off pieces of him and feed to worgs. Promise to let him go back to camp, but then break promise and just feed him to wolves! We set up many traps like this for stupid rangers... make it look like they catch a worg and then worgs all take them to me for torture. Then Grovel study them, make them scream and try to figure out what screams mean. Make them scream over and over until it make sense... and if we break a human, wolves find me another! Learn of their traps, where they hunt and how to stay safe from them.*

Grovel learn the way of the wolf and of the hunt quickly, and even teach wolves new tricks. Nature is like grovel, merciless... if one is weak or show love or pause in killing, one is dead. Only allegiance is fear... fear is good. Fear is why we howl when hunting... make prey run and tire. Then prey is food.

One day we find elves and worgs chase them out of area. Grovel direct them to descend on youngest and weakest elf, just big enough for goblin to control. We bit at him, worgs trip him down as Grovel spring out of bushes and tie him up with vines. Hang him upside down many months in tree, dangling over hungry worgs who snarl and terrify him. Grovel then spend many months with elf, feeding him nuts from the woods only when he work with Grovel... torture the elf tongue out of him! When elf is good and say words to things that Grovel show him, elf get walnuts, honey and water. Pain and fear is good teacher though. When elf is bad, cut pieces off his face and feed them to wolves, or cut off finger, toe, flesh of arm. Grovel run out of body parts before learn much, so maybe catch more.

Pack also sometimes hunt goblins, take special delight in paying them back for when they tried to eat me, and good is their flesh for our cubs. But then one day, we try and hunt a goblin and the worgs stop, say he smells like me. We meet and find we are brothers, he too hates old goblin tribe... says that he prefers being in woods and away from den. He also speak many animal tongues, like me, is closer to nature. Tells me that old tribe is taken over by some kind of goblin that turns into wolf, but not smell like worg and is talking to creatures from darkfire world.

Grovel very clever, when learned little words of human, scrawl them onto parchment we find off hunter and roll up and stick in his pocket. Worg take his bloodied jacket and some body parts near wolfswood camp so it found by their scouts and look like killed by wild animal. Note read "I have found the goblins, they are being led by a barghest. I wil... *bloody splotches as if interrupted by a fight*! -Joe". Then draw them map to old goblin tribe where barghest is on back of note. Then, me and brother wait in bushes far off from camp, watch stupid rangers risk their lives against old goblin kin and big goblin wolf. The wolf-goblin was extra tough... but rangers use some kinda special arrow with shiny tip to kill... Grovel glad all old goblins dead, they should have known better than to try and eat me! Stupid rangers and stupid goblins dead, neither ever even know Grovel and Nonac involved! was Perfect plan...

Now, Grovel teach new brother the order and ways of nature, and he join pack. Is better to be cunning and ferocious like worg than confused and stupid like goblin.

I am Grovel, Foaming Wolf, mad of hunger and rage. Pack will survive and all who hunt us perish to be our food, is no room for remorse. Nature merciless.

---------------------

1. I understand and have read what it is to be a druid, their creed and to accept no other god but the natural cycle of life and death. The weak shall feed the strong, and crafty cunning goblins is stronger than strong, stupid humans. Must work with elves in woods, cause they what keep out the dwarfs and humans. Must work with druids and groves to make sure all hunters know where to hunt, what territories marked by others, mark own territories with dwarf heads on pikes so that bees find a home and make sweet blood honey.

2. I will adhere to the creed of the dark tree father and the way of the worg. there is no greater power than nature. Others that think they are seperate do not understand their place in nature. Fear and devouring will teach them their place. I will parlay with all friends of nature in the attempt to find common goals in keeping the wilds wild. I will forever attempt to climb the food chain so that others who would eat me should know fear and either flee or follow me, for this is nature's way. Any non-pack animal which decides to try and eat me or my allies will be eaten in return, for predators don't question free food when it bites. All animals have place and rank on great food chain. Even vermin hunt the corpses, worms eat the brains of mighty prey, which poop in dirt to feed da trees. Trees is where Grovel like to sleep, so thank worms for the poop.

3. I will use the bloodied leathers of hunted animals without remorse, for their deaths hold meaning and they live on in feeding and protecting me. When I feast of the bear and wear his hide, the bear and I hunt as one, his spirit will make me stronger. I shall eschew the metallurgy and technological designs of non-druidic armors and weapons... for there is no bloodlust glory in chipping metals from rock. Better are the pelts of a frightened animal who screams and bleeds, better is the tree that dies to make my shield of sap weeping wood than some dead, unfeeling rock. the fear of death is life.

Languages Requested: Common

Note also: I put in a deletion request for Rakish Feiwallen so I will have an open slot for him

[darkstorme]

This submission is under discussion. Please bear with us.

[Weeblie]

Oh, before one forgets, there is a tiny age consideration here also. Not big, just a tiny detail. Because the goblin is falling under the halfling as "core race", the minimum required age would be 20...

(yes, this text is copied...)

[lonnarin]

Originally Posted by Weeblie

Oh, before one forgets, there is a tiny age consideration here also. Not big, just a tiny detail. Because the goblin is falling under the halfling as "core race", the minimum required age would be 20...

(yes, this text is copied...)

That would be assuming the typical goblin lives to be 270 years. Goblins are far from halflings, they live shorter than humans and age faster. Halflings are only the "core race" in terms of NWN race selection dynamics for the avatar skin, not in lifespan or hereditary genetics. I believe the chart of racial starting ages was intended to cover actual halfling subraces like stronghearts and ghostwise *halflings*, not goblins. Please ask Ed or Leanthar to be sure.

[EdTheKet]

Originally Posted by lonnarin

I believe the chart of racial starting ages was intended to cover actual halfling subraces like stronghearts and ghostwise *halflings*, not goblins. Please ask Ed or Leanthar to be sure.

Yeah, that was the intent, so we should probably have something different for goblins. I'll cook something up.

[jrizz]

Sorry this is taking so long. We will get back to you shortly.

[darkstorme]

Alright, apologies again for the delay, but a few things needed to be worked over.

First and foremost, I am pleased to inform you that you are approved for an evil character. Grovel, however, will require some work before he can be approved.

The plausibility of a wolf allowing her adopted "cub" to shove her puppies out of the way when feeding, or to have the patience to nurse a much-slower-to-mature goblin is somewhat limited. Wolves are pack animals who care for their young, so while the maternal instinct might apply, even for a foul-smelling goblin, it would not do so to the exclusion of her own litter. As to the maturity - is Grovel meant to be six or seven already when he comes upon the pack?

The language, as it stands, is plain impossible. Accompanied by wolves or not, the Wolfswood Rangers would kill a goblin before he could say a word. And even devout Folianites are not restricted from killing wolves, provided that a) they use the animal with respect to nature, or b) the wolves prevent a clear and present threat. A goblin-led wolf pack certainly would qualify.

If this could be made plausible, the Wolfswood Rangers (most of whom are human) would certainly never teach a goblin elven - particularly one who is patently evil! As mentioned before, it would take a truly extraordinary reason for them to let him live, let alone leave him to "his" pack. The only additional language that might be approved at this point - without extensive further justification - is Common. (Since Goblin PCs do not start with this language.)

So, to summarize:

• Evil = accepted.
• Raised by wolves from toddlerhood is beyond realistic. Grovel would have to have arrived later in his life.
• The Wolfswood Rangers would likely simply kill Grovel and his pack. They would be unlikely to teach him Common, let alone Elven. If you wish Grovel to speak either language, it will require a more reasonable source... and substantial justification.

Once these points are addressed, this submission will be re-reviewed. Again, sorry for the wait.

[lonnarin]

Edited to address requirements...

*is now even slightly more evil

*now joined the pack when he was around 7 in goblin years to give him a better chance of survival with them. Also he is unable to suckle from the mother, but manages to survive by picking & eating their fleas and ticks like a monkey. (which they kind of like because the fleas and ticks itch so much) The wolves don't really bond with him at first except for the playful pups, and the mother bites him any time me tried to suckle. Now, rather than having a maternal bond, he has to slay the alpha to gain acceptance... and fear.

*Goes into detail his torturing both human and elven captives, keeping them alive just long enough to learn snippets of their language from them for interrogation, and feeding them to the wolves thereafter. If the rangers will not teach him willingly, then he will just have to have had to torture it all out of them to learn their tongues.

*Torture does work in learning languages... Strap somebody to a chair and point to a shoe and ask them what it is... if they refuse to talk, take off a finger and feed it to a wolf. Point to the shoe again and ask them again... repeat this over and over till the last finger and I guaruntee you they WILL say the word "Shoe" in their language by the 3rd or 4th finger. If any such rangers are resistant to torture, then feed that ranger to the wolves, grab another and try again. Eventually you will find one who is very compliant in teaching you, at the risk of further torture. Once you break even one ranger doing this... he will spill his entire guts bending over backwards to tell you what everything is on the minute offchance that you might actually let him go... or at the very least to stall you in hopes that help will arrive for him. For the tough guys who resist torture well and are willing to die for the sake of others, it is best to torture them in pairs. Ask the tough guy what something is and if he refuses to tell you, torture the other. His silly notions of sacrificing himself to save the others will work against him in this way, particularly if you capture a mated couple, or a mother and child. This method gets easier every time you try it because even if you only learn a handful of words from the first victim, you can now use those words when interrogating the next one, and eventually many will not even know you are really just torturing them to learn their language, they will think that you are torturing them for more information and that you already know their language... and will curse you out in new words that you can use next time. If torture didn't work, then our military wouldn't bother trying it at all. Viva Jack Bauer.

*now instead of working with or meeting the Wolfswood rangers beyond the few he's captured and tortured, he tricks them with a note written in pidgeon-elven to go to the old goblin camp and wipe out his old tribe. The wolfswood Ranger camp never even gets to find out about Grovel, though they do slay the barghest for him.

*Even though I changed my bio to fit the request... on the plausibility of wolves nursing humanoid cubs from the time they were toddlers or even infants however, I would like to point out that this was not such a problem in the case with Romulus, Remus, Tarzan and Mowgli of mythical and fantasy origin, nor was it a factor in the real life examples of children raised by wolves documented in real life. (117 known cases in the real world) Please, next time when debating a submission, the team should study such cases in mythos, fantasy and history before drawing absolute conclusions via speculation.

I cite Joseph Amrito Lal Singh's "Wolf-Children and Feral Man", the Hessian wolf-children (1341-1344) The boy of Bamberg (1341-1344), Hans of Liege (1672), the three Lithuanian Bear-Boys (1657, 1669, 1694), the girl of Oranienburg (1717), the two Pyrenean Boys (1719), Peter the Wild Boy of Hamelin (1724), the wild girl of Champagne (1731), the Hungarian beargirl (1767) the wild man of Kronstadt (1780), Victor of Aveyron (1797), Amala and Kamala the wolf children (1920), Ramu of Lucknow India (1954), the Syrian Gazelle-boy (1950s), the Saharan Gazelle-boy (1960) Robert the monkeychild (1982) James Goodfellow (1983) Oxana Malaya of the Ukraine (1990s), Daniel the Andes Goat-boy (1990) John Ssebunya of Uganda (1991), Belo the Nigerian Chimp Boy (1996) Ivan Mishukov who was raised by wolves and became the alpha! (1998 ) Edik of the Ukraine (1999), Alex the dogboy of Talcahuano, Chile (2001) Andrei Tolstyk (2004) Rochom P'ngieng (2007) and Amy G of Bulgaria (2007) most of whome are real life examples of feral children raised by pack animals from the time they were toddlers. If a goblin suckling a wolf is impossible, or being raised from a toddler, then why did real-life God approve these children to do the same?

I understand and appreciate why you guys take such a long time going through everything with a fine tooth comb and I know about this process... but please remember, this is fantasy. Let's not look so deep into the barebones physics and probability of things to the point where it becomes math homework. I will continue to make the changes regarding anything else you require of me, however.

[lonnarin]

Is this still being discussed? If you need me to change anything else, then please let me know. It has now been 10 days and I've only gotten one request for revisions.

[jrizz]

We are still discussing this. Sorry it is taking so long.

[lonnarin]

To address a few more things regarding this submission.

Originally Posted by darkstorme

The only additional language that might be approved at this point - without extensive further justification - is Common. (Since Goblin PCs do not start with this language.)

Yes they do. Everybody starts with common as a freebie. Halfgiants and half-ogres and orcs and wild elves and even sea elves raised by their own kin 2000 meters below the ocean's surface know common automatically in every single character approval of those races there has ever been. Please do not apply new rules just for me because I'm making a goblin. If you want to deny me common now, then please inform EVERY dwarf, gnome, halfling and elf in game with an intelligence score of 11 or lower that they can no longer speak common, as they didn't write about growing up, learning common in their submissions. The same rules apply to everybody.

[Weeblie]

That is not correct.

LORE: Goblin

Check under languages and you will see that the only automatic one is Goblin. Compare with Dark Elves (or most other races) who get Common. Ironically, your example of Sea Elves getting common automaticly is also false.

"Player character Sea Elves will not be given the ability to speak languages other than Elven and their native Sea Elven language, unless they are clearly defined in the character submission biography. Player characters must have a minimum intelligence of 12 to be fluent in another language. They do not start off speaking Common."

This is something that has been present for a very, very long time now (if not always).

[lonnarin]

Even pure orcs get common to start. This is very odd, especially since goblins are smarter than orcs.

How do drow and duergar and svirvneblin who grow up further away from human civilizations than goblins get to speak common? It seems that, using any justification for goblins not being able to know it automatically, said justification falls apart under the same scrutiny afforded to other races. Peoples who have evolved fully thousands of kilometers from human civilization mystically know common better than the humans' next door neighbors. (honestly, I just think it was a typo in LORE anyhow. Considering how illogical it is.)

Ah well, if you need to enforce the rules as they are written, then I don't blame you. I was just confused because Bilkivi, Faroo Footstool, Grubber, Jamzogie, Gnusto and Glurrk made no mention of being raised learning common, and many of them spoke common early in game. But these aren't new rules after all, and it's not like we can simply go by the precidence of the other goblin submissions. I shall gladly set the new precident then, to follow these oft forgotten rules to the letter and to boldly go forth as the first goblin submission to adequately justify knowing common in both stats and bio. It is quite the honor.

I guess it's a good thing I did a full paragraph on learning common to begin with... and a whole 2nd one on learning elven! I'll just sit back with my 14 intelligence and wait.

[EdTheKet]

Allright. I think we can agree that this is taking a long time.
I get the impression (but since it's all text based I could be wrong) that you're using sarcasm in your last sentence, please don't as it can come off wrong and hardly ever gets anyone anywhere.

On to the issues at hand then, I believe there are two.

The languages

This is from LORE, and no, it is not a typo.
Languages:
* Automatic:
o Goblin
* Bonus:
o Hobgoblin
o Dwarf
o Elf (if they live in an area near Elves).
o Goblins learn the tongues of their nearest enemies.

As for Bilkivi, Faroo Footstool, Grubber, at that point in time (2005), we did not have the languages per race set up, or the INT requirements for bonus languages I think, so there was no rule. Therefore, these were grandfathered.
As for the others, I briefly scanned the bios (but not in detail as I have many other things to do), but it seems to me that they at least had contact with other races and so would fall under the fourt bullet of the bonus language "Goblins learn the tongues of their nearest enemies."

The key word here is learn, of course. This leads me to your point:

How do drow and duergar and svirvneblin who grow up further away from human civilizations than goblins get to speak common?

They have schools, goblins do not. Before this turns into a discussion onto the finer points of racial education systems, I would like to close that point and return to the learning.

Language can be learned by torture. Well, I agree and I do not agree. You can perhaps learn a rudimentary form of the language, a few words and short sentences, but before you have captured and tortured enough Wolfswood Rangers to get a thorough understanding of the language, they'd have hunted you down already. Remember, this is a level 1 goblin we are talking about, they're the elite ranger corps of the planet.

So, I am willing to grant you common, but not elven.
There is no way that elven can be learned in so much detail to speak, let alone learn to write it, your goblin would have been hunted down already many times.

Being raised by wolves
While it is an interesting idea, Grovel is described as leading a wolf pack by delayed retribution, which makes little sense with INT 2 creatures.
May I suggest being raised by Worgs. Worg :: d20srd.org
which is far more likely. You may want to give that some though.

He can then be a member of the worg pack, I am not too sure about actually leading them.
In any case, I just want to point out for clarity's sake (you probably know, but also for the people following this discussion) that there will be no in game benefits with this association with a worg pack.


I believe that addresses the issues at hand.