Prestige class request for Fr. Logan - DENIED

[Skabot Redwolf]

I would like to get the ball rolling for Undead Hunter class for Fr. Logan. I know I'll need some CD threads, and a link or something, but this character seems right for it. I'll try to figure out how to put my bio in here with an edit. Any suggestions would be appreciated.
Thanks!
figured the bio part out...
Name: Fr. Logan
Class: Cleric
Diety: Lucinda
Domains: Healing/Magic
Align. NG
Race: Human
Age; 36
Bio: As a young man Fr.�Logan was the priest of a small settlement parish. The Village was growing, and a quaint chapel was well underway. Fr. Logan was well liked in the village for his kindly disposition and generosity. Well�know in the county, pesants would come from miles around to recieve his healing touch. And of course he never turned away anyone regardles of their faith or lack there of. Convinced he would spend the rest of his days tending his little flock in the rustic countryside, Fr. Logan settled into the happy routine of parish priest and local healer. One day while out visiting a sick shut-in who lived in a nearby town, Fr. Logan felt an urgent tug from the weave; somthing was wrong at home. By the time he returned with a cadre of protectors of the Weave, it was too late. The village was burned to the ground, no villager left alive, from the old to babes in arms. A few undead among the casualties comfirmed the origin of the attack. Since that day, Fr. Logan has hunted for the truth of who was responsible for the obliteration of his flock.

a link! hark! http://forums.layonara.com/developme...s-letters.html

I expect I may put some updates for this CD thread, it's probably several years (real time) old.

[jrizz]

Can you provide a link to your CDT?

[Acacea]

How does he feel about his own clergy, as the church of Lucinda does not sponsor an order of undead hunters, and indeed teaches necromancy as a part of the Weave? A Protector of the Weave was once heard, when infuriated by the dark actions against someone she had promised to protect, to say that he might find himself dead and animated to serve as a chambermaid to the Pale. If his focus is so on killing undead like an Aeridinite and not on magic as a whole, how does he deal with his faith?

[darkstorme]

@Skabot - is Fr. Logan still interested in this?

If so, we need to see the above question addressed, before we can move further on it.

[Skabot Redwolf]

Fr. Logan sees the lack of undead hunters as an oversight in the Lucindite clergy, after all, have litches not threatened the weave before? Also, specialization in all aspects of magic should be encompassed in the clergy. If he ever saw a member of the clergy commit an overtly evil act such as summoning an undead, he would bring them up on legal charges with the church and militia. Of course necromancy must be taught, it protects against the powers of death as well as brings them, but he is good, so he feels that only those without morals would ever summon the undead with necromancy, so Lucinda, who is Neutral Good, would not approve of such actions, and does not consider them appropriate for moral conduct. If one were to question why she allows necromancy at all.... well; why do bad things happen to good people? why does God allow freewill? (What was with that whole Abraham sacrificing his son to God? *the absurd in religious theology, i.e. Kierkegaard* ) Some of the gods choices are beyond human understanding. He has been slaying undead for years, and Lucinda has seen fit to continue granting him spells and the power to turn undead, so he thinks he is justified. The fact that Lucindites can turn the undead at all seems to Fr. Logan to suggest an antipathy between his faith and the product of necromancy, if not the means. Of course, this must be pretty close to the dogma of the Lucindite faith, otherwise it would be acceptable for Lucindite clerics of good alignment to summon undead, regardless of the restrictions placed on them by their alignment.

[darkstorme]

While we understand your reasoning here, several key points are mistaken.

In brief:

• Liches have not ever set out to threaten or harm the Weave - as their bodies and essence are held together by powerful magic, to endanger the Weave is to endanger their own existence.
• The study and glorification of magic is a part of Lucinda's dogma. A Pale Master could easily be a devout Lucindite, seeking to extend the mastery of magic over even the realm of Death itself. Likewise, a Good caster could seek to extend their lifespan as a guardian spirit or baelnorn. A Lucindite cleric turning in another devout believer for their method of glorifying their goddess would find themselves on the horns of a dogmatic dilemma.
• The comparison of Lucinda to the Christian/Judaic God is clever, but not particularly apt, since Lucinda can actively indicate Her distaste for given activity by withholding Her favour - free will is a factor in those outside of her clergy, but TN casters could raise dead without incurring Her wrath. By the same reasoning you employ, the fact that She doesn't withdraw Her powers from these casters would indicate that She actively supports the creation of undead creatures.
• Finally, turning undead is a means of channeling pure positive energy to disrupt the magics that hold undead together, which, being based in death, are drawn from negative energy. Lucinda remains a participant in the Good region of the pantheon, so Her devout can channel a tiny bit of Her aspect, as can any other Good cleric. This should not be taken as a sign of favour or disregard for the creatures.

That aside, Lucinda does not support Undead Slayers. She does support the darker sides of Necromancy (though, of course, Good characters would not so indulge, because it's not mandatory that they do so), and to support a person whose sole purpose is to destroy the Undead in whatever form would be somewhat counterproductive.

This application, after consideration from the GM team, is therefore denied.

[Acacea]

To clarify some of that and respond to some of the other points made in hopes of better explaining that position - there are those among her faith that are undead themselves, without being evil. One of her highest and most accomplished servants, for example, a former Grandmaster, willingly became a baelnorn - with a good alignment - to protect something. At the end of her service, she was given a second chance at life by Lucinda for her devotion to the good of magic, even after death. She still serves Lucinda and is respected by the faith. You can see how this is set in direct opposition to all that an undead hunter believes...I think he might find himself at odds with his faith.

About a decade ago IG, this issue among others came between Lucinda and Aeridin, once allies, stepped away from one another and became not even friendly, but neutral. For some Lucindites that know what occurred, its even less friendly, souring their dealings with Aeridinites ever since.

Regarding her clerics being able to turn undead - if I were able, I think I would add the thing that allows evil clerics to rebuke undead, and add a divine feat for every deity. Like divine might and all those, it would sap Turn Undead attempts to use an ability more suited for each faith. That would be nice. Lucinda's wouldn't be about turning undead, that's just something all clerics have mechanically.

Regarding not summoning undead - Lucindites don't summon undead because it will get them in trouble and mechanically, the undead summoned are evil and most of the priests are good, believing the Weave is a benevolent force. It's not the undead part, its the evil part, and the get in trouble part. Especially when Aeridin was an ally, and much care was given to not upsetting them without due cause. Many of them find it distasteful, but usually not because the act itself is a blasphemy.

Someone else quoted the tenants of the faith, saying "The Weave is life, for it is my body and my soul." and "that which takes from life takes from me." and reasoning that hey, life is good, undeath is bad for life, she must hate undead! Well, that's backwards. It is specifically stating the belief of all Lucindites "The Weave is life." some Lucindites don't even realize they're following in all that the Lady asks of them, some even turn their face from her, but it is not the petty arguments from some and lip service from other that matters. What makes a Lucindite is that for them, they do not use the Weave to protect life, and therefore hate undead. The Weave IS life and they protect that; it infuses and connects everything, it is what adds wonder and mystery to the world, something that all her devoted mages spend their entire life trying to quantify, while knowing that what they love cannot ever truly be defined.

How can someone be good and not sponsor undead hunters, since most undead are evil? Some even harm the Weave with their actions, though not many, truly. I would not say 'have not EVER' but it would be odd to actually harm Magic itself as they need it for their existence. If they are mad as well and damage it unintentionally, well, happens, which is when it becomes a problem of the church itself, and not before.

Every god has allies and enemies. Just like in real life, different people have different roles, and you depend on those you work with to take care of some things while you take care of others. It is not Lucinda's role to rid the world of undead; indeed, as mentioned before, her servants even make use of them. If there are evil vampires plaguing something, and her best servants are all good, do they want to see them go away? Certainly, and they may endeavor to aid with that providing it does not ever mess up their priorities. Does Lucinda herself task them with that duty? Not really. Her former ally Aeridin's entire faith despised undead and had a fine order of undead hunters. That is their job. Will she be glad that evil is put down? Most likely. Is she going to go running off to do it? Nope. It's not her field.

A group of Lucindites is more likely to die trying to fix the magic of the Dark Peaks (and they have died doing so), than hunting undead just because they're bad. Both are usually Good ends, but Good covers a large variety of causes that her allies and former allies share. Someone who passionately hated all undead as a Hunter does would have a very difficult time in the clergy, and I think if that is the way he feels, maybe for all this time he has been slowly drifting away from holding magic above all other things? I imagine stepping away from Aeridin was a bad thing in his eyes, despite what they did. Perhaps a change of faith is in order, though not an easy decision.

[Skabot Redwolf]

Perhaps it should be made clear in the class description which deities are allowed the undead hunter class. It seems you already know which faiths will be allowed. If that is the case, why was I not refused the first day?

[Acacea]

I apologize, that was my fault. I did not believe Lucinda had any Undead Hunters when I first responded, and wished to quickly get all the problems I knew about out of the way before it was taken into further consideration, even if it was only in question form for you. When you answered, it was reviewed and discussed, and it was confirmed that rather than being rare and very unusual, Lucinda will simply not provide for any Undead Hunters, and a few more reasons discussed, that were all laid out above. I'm sorry that they were not given as the first reply, but it was confirmed without a doubt afterwards.

You might be right on announcing beforehand which deities sponsor undead hunters, yet I think Toran and Aeridin are the only ones with actual undead organizations listed anywhere, so perhaps that is something that can be taken into account.