The Hunt - General confusion.

[Harlas Ravelkione]

There seems to be a lot of confusion going on regarding yesterday's "Hunt" episode, and the fact that 3 new people were allowed to join the quest.
For clarification... The contract was signed. It happened without forcing of the players. They could have said no, and yes it would have meant leaving the quest. Then they lost their cargo and were bound by the contract. They are currently investigating how they'll get it back. Now a few people have PM'ed me if they could attend the quest. The calendar description says that previous players are chosen first, but others may join if the group is not huge. Today when the quest started the group consisted of perhaps 10 or 11people, so the 3 were allowed to join. They are not bound by the contract, and their reasons for joining the party were RP'ed. (two people bluffed their way in, and the third sneaked inside invisibly) Then, within 15-20 minutes after the quest started, 8 more people had joined. After that I get questions on the GM channel if the party was not closed. Yes, in a way it was closed by the contract, but that does not mean that others cannot attend the same party -or if allowed in on the quest by the group, help them to solve their problems. These 3are not bound by a contract like the others, which will and should lead to confrontations between the players, but that is fine with me. Conflicts are not a bad thing on quests, and this one could actually turn into some very interesting RP. The outcome could very well be that the big group is not interested in any help by the 3 new people. Still, the quest would continue. Yesterday night no one explained anything to anyone, and there were a lot of conversations here and there and everywhere; all in all very chaotic. Some found clues, while other characters did not trust the newcomers and decided to do nothing while they are around. Why not take the conflict? Get the things on the table, and avoid confusion? The calendar even says nothing about the party being closed. I am sorry if anyone got that impression. Many players cannot make that many quests, and closing mine restricts such players further. Therefore I try to hold them open for as long as possible. Should the party decide to work together towards a common goal these new people will not be bound by the contract, still they can help those in need of help to fulfill their part of the deal. Harlas

[Rayenoir]

Not that it counts for much, but you're okay by me, Harlas.

[Varka]

Harlas

The thing to let more folks attend, which did not write the contract so be it...but the day we began this quest you put out strictly how the discipline should be. And this you broke...enough of this though...

This is not only about that.
You have to consider what consequence this has for the rest of the players. Are they okay with it? And this is put more in the OOC. Sorry but it is true.... And saying “ are they okay with it and OOC” I already know the answer to that..but it is TRUE...
Your action had consequences last night which was clearly seen, and if I am not mistaken will also for the following...

2 players which joined the group could in less than 1 hour (or even less) take the spirit away from the game. Sorry to say that but it is true.

When someone attends to a new quest which has been going on for more than one time, you sit back and listen to find out what has happened...you don’t steal the picture.
I will though say that these two persons plays really good RP. No question about it, but it is more the respect towards the others...

For the thing about investigating:
I was the one which found out why we got kicked out of the villages. Heck I even sent a DM tell which got the things into roll.
What made us being kicked out of the city should not be discussed HERE as I started some “things”, but this I can only complete if all plays again.
As I started (OOC/in the DM channel) what got kicked us out of the city...heck you follow that person around to see what he/she is up to.

Harlas...
This shall not be seen as a negative thing but as a thing you have to learn from.... (Hehe and this comes from me to you. Jesus dude!!...)

This is where you and Rolf sit back and listen to the crowd. This is NOT a debate about who is right or wrong... this is about you and the other GMs actually listens to the crowd in a “new way”... *think* Yes I thing that is the right way to put it.

About the game last night Harlas...and don’t take this wrong. We have all good and bad nights and this one is not one of my favourites.
I hope both good and bad critics are welcome, as you actually learn most from the last part.

And dude...don’t take it personal. I have a free weekend in one week. Lets go out can get a beer, see a movie or so....

The reason why I write this is also to make the “others” write.
What is written “up” should be considered as objective (I tried to at least).... I DON’T MEAN TO HARM ANY ONE... This is a game for xxxx sake..

[Varka]

For the record....

Why should I write something like THAT..if I did not ”hear” things...

[s0ulz]

I was one person who asked in the DM channel about the party being closed or not. It just seemed strange that so many people came to such a remote location in coincidence. However I had nothing against them, once I got the clarification from a DM, that they RPd in and that I later heard drom Triba and Eldarwen respectively.

Harlas, about them not getting worked into what was happening. That's not true. I myself told the two mentioned above just about everything that had gone on... it was just in whispers as walls have ears .

So in conclusion I think that if these newcomers keep coming to the series then fine, if not.. then I suggest to lock the party for real. The starter of confusion this time around was the fact that after we signed the contract you personally said that the party was locked and that's that.

[minerva]

Thank you Varka for wrapping things up nicely.
I too was on the quest and was a disappointed for those reasons exactly.
Harlas and Winters this is not meant to be taken personally but constructively, by not just you but the players involved as well.

[Harlas Ravelkione]

There are some simple facts that you are missing.

1. When the quest started there were not more than 10 people (max) from the original group. Also look on the calendar and check how many actually signed up for the event. Then compare that with the rule that I myself stated in the quest description about other people joining. This rule was also in the description for the previous session.

2. The contract binds the group together to a common cause. But does it also prevent the group from receiving help by other characters?

3. Suddenly 3 new people joined the party. You were not aware of these people coming... people you had seen before. But you were also not aware of the NPCs at the party before you got into it. If you tried to view and act on the situation in-character what is the problem? There are new people there, whether you like it or not. You have 3 options. The first is to engage them in your problem and they might offer to help you. The second is to discuss with them after the party what they are doing here, and make the judgement to not accepting their help. The third option is to sit back and watch them, and more or less hit the passive button for the remainder of the quest.
I thought that bringing a little surprise into the quest might spice things up a little further. Anyway, I am not going to take such decisions for my players. If they decide on the second option they will have to make the confrontation with the new people and tell them their aid is not welcome. Actually this could have made things very interesting, if you ask me.


On the matter of high-lvl people taking over I am going to steal a remark made by another:
- On the "follow the epics" thing...OK, I've been on both sides of this (well, not quite, but close enough). And I remember as a lower-level character being in awe of the higher-ups and tending to follow rather than lead, speak up or be something other than just one of the group. So it does happen, however it happens in no small part due to the lower-level characters (and "younger" players) allowing it to happen...meaning they either willingly or subconsciously allow themselves to be led by the epics and higher levels. I wonder if the same players had shown up with mid-level characters if something similar would have occurred simply by meta-gamed virtue of the fact that the players had been there a long time?

And should we start excluding people from quests just because they're epic and the rest of the group is not? Barring a level cap, there's no reason why high-level/epic and mid/low-level characters cannot mix on the same quest. I can think of several successful examples where that has occurred.

[Harlas Ravelkione]

I do not take this personally, so don't hold back on your views folks.

@ Fenrir. The only time I said anything about a locked party was on the first episode where 20 people or so were on the quest. I meant that the party was locked for that session. That session only - due to the huge party. If I was not clear enough about that I apologize.

[s0ulz]

Harlas Ravelkione - 2/10/2006 10:21 AM

I do not take this personally, so don't hold back on your views folks.

@ Fenrir. The only time I said anything about a locked party was on the first episode where 20 people or so were on the quest. I meant that the party was locked for that session. That session only - due to the huge party. If I was not clear enough about that I apologize.

Alright then I misunderstood... no problem

And about following epics... it's just safer with them, so people instinctively follow them. And about them taking over last night, I don't feel like that. I was glad to see some new life come into the conversation, however Pan's typing skills are so overwhelming and Triba is one talky little bugger

[666hellspawn]

i also asked about this in the dm channel...and to tell you the truth i still don't agree with you.....when people in town before the quest began ask me what i was doing ..i told them i was on a quest and that they couldn't come because of the contract...and it is something you yourself stated in the first session.
I still have the feeling it isn't fair to allows others in...not with asking the group who signed the contract first....i found it all very offensive. It seemed to me that you didn't trust the group enough to find the answers so you brought in epic gm char help...maybe this is truely not the case, but that doesn't really matter...Some people i spoke with saw it that way...or at least felt it that way....many people were offended by this and down right angry....and i was one of them.

[Filatus]

Heh, since I missed the installment a week before I wasn't even sure who was new and who wasn't. The problem in this case might have been that the new people had no incentive what so ever to help us solve the problem, I mean it's just money. And we never succeeded in proving for certain whether the drow were hiding at a particular place. That gives the three players that joined in little reason to risk all in helping us.

The other problem is in my opinion that you Varka, at one point decided to split from the party and do some things. You called a few players and it lasted a while. Something about a bear, but I'm not sure since no information of that every got Daeron's way, or to the other players that were still standing there. By not involving the group you can't blame them for spreading and doing their own things.

If you learn something I think it's in good taste to include the rest of the party.

[Varka]

Filatus - 2/10/2006 5:51 AM

1)The other problem is in my opinion that you Varka, at one point decided to split from the party and do some things. 2)You called a few players and it lasted a while. Something about a bear, but I'm not sure since no information of that every got Daeron's way, or to the other players that were still standing there. 3)By not involving the group you can't blame them for spreading and doing their own things.

4)If you learn something I think it's in good taste to include the rest of the party.

1) Yep. I split due to an "event", which I worked on. As you dont know what it concerns I understand your post and thoughts.

2) Yep. True again - and for a good reason due to an "event"

3) I dont blame people for doing their things. People play as people play.
For me this is important that you understand that. I DO NOT comment on peoples RP as that is the most....."holy ground".... I can IC react on it though, and that is what I do.

4) Again I agree...but for IC reasons due to the "event" I decided to solve it my way.


This "event" which I keep saying lasted max 5 min in game where I had to react. I did not have time to explain and debate...espeacially with my "great" skills in typing on a keyboard..

[Varka]

To Fenrir: Did not know about your ear whispering


Further....To Daeron Stormcloud:
Please read my post again as my first post is more the “opening” for which the others until now has answered..

The essence of the first post goes (or should go) in a bit differently direction...

[Filatus]

Thanks for the feedback Varka. I still have no clue what was going on, but I'll just have to find peace with that. Difficult for me since curiousity is my middle name.

As to the fact that we gained so little ground on the last quest. It happens, our position wasn't easy to begin with. There wasn't an obvious solution at hand and due to the groupsize and spreading, it was difficult to come to a consensus.

I think this should be a good learning experience. Next episode things might go a lot smoother.

It usually happens in quest series, that it takes a group some time to get used to each other.

[Zen]

IMHO If a *contract-pact-agreement-vow-etc.* is used then any GM should close the quest as to new people comming in.

Unless an agrement was made before the first installment.

Also @ Harlas it is a tribute to your GMing skill that so many want to join your Quests so ..... Atta Boy! ..... Zen slaps you on the back (then picks you up) [Zen is 6'2" & 300lbs/aprox150kilos]...... Mahalo or Thank You

[stormspirit]

There are so many things in all of this that are simple misconceptions.

1) a)Harlas bought in no epic help, he was Pmed by new players asking if they could attend. He never offered nor made a step towards "bringing in epic gm help to solve the quest." The pm was sent due to this particular quest being at a very early hour in the morning and a lack of desire to get to a quest somewhere on central at that hour to find out that going was impossible. Harlas simply responded with conditions of attendance. There is nothing wrong with that at all in my view, he did as he thought was right under the circumstances,
b)Not sure what people see our role as when we run quests to be honest. As a Gm we do not exist to make sure you solve quests, in actual fact I would assume Harlas is much like Pan or myself in this regard....it is a possibility you will fail. Perhaps as a Gm we like to see happy players who are successful..yet that wont stop incorrect actions leading to failure. Gms arent there to brig in help or insure that you succeed. We are there simply to offer a quest and allow people to enjoy the added diversity and challenge available in new situations and environments that only gm/player interaction can present.

2)Odd how the post quest discussion there was the insinuation that epics were lazy (funnily epics tend no to become epic if they are lazy). This thread points to them being rather dominating, imposing and of a take control nature. In the end you people need to look at what they want from the characters who yes tend to lead from an excess of experience on quests. However under these criteria epics face a condemned if they do or they dont process as if they take an active role they are dominating a quest, if they sit back in more support roles we become lazy and people point at us resting on our laurels.

3) The level spread was not that great, the two additional high levels didnt add a great deal in the range of upper level. There were other epics on the quest, and some who are verging. Not sure how it was that two more made a huge difference. Perhaps the two more just covered more skillsets and that was not pleasant to those who previously dominated in said skillsets. Unfortunately layonara like RL tends to always hold someone better at something than you are...and that applies to all including myself.

4)On the few opinions that were given, there is little need to know the details since they were simply logical conclusions drawn from who is good at what, with the disclaimer attached "I have no stake in this so the choice is yours" Not sure what more people want. You dont want an opinion given on the most logical way to do things from another view? If thats the case then there is little point being there in any way or form. I, Pan...indeed almost every person to ever go on a quest does not go to sit like a clam in a corner. As a Gm I could and would never expect that and on the rare occasions that I do get that I find that the lack of engagement is rather dissappointing. Regardless of that Fenrir explained what had gone before in a brief entirety, so thanks and congratulations for him for dealing with additions in a constructive manner.

Long and short there are several ways of dealing with new people attending any running event, of course the preferred way for most who run events is to integrate them, explain past events and let them take a role in what is to come. I have lost track of the number of times I have reiterated past sessions to new players or sat as a Gm for a good hour while listening to new players having events explained to them. Epic or not shouldnt matter, in my view I tend to be overjoyed as a player to see epics turn up. Often diversity of experience will help with solutions that I, or others dont see. IC im not sure how you could argue any different. If well known people who had solved a plethora of problems turned up to help I would be more than welcoming. Aferall anything that increases the chances of success must be a good thing in the end.

Secondly you can of course tell them they are not welcome, an event that as a Gm I havent yet seen and hope I never have to deal with. The event when open is exactly that, open and able to be added to at Gm discretion. I understand that this event was in some manner seen as closed yet harlas has explained that as a misunderstanding so the judgement call once more sits in the hands of the eventowner. Angels Tear is the same, I use my own discretion when I open and close it and dont seek input from everyone when I do so. Turning people away however is an option and would need to be dealt with in character at the time.

We have of course the last scenario here wherein one nor two happened, excluding the rare exceptions of course. There was no move to tell the new players to leave, nor was there much of an attempt to integrate them into the party and make the event enjoyable for all. The second could have easily been done, the first even simpler though it would have of course had IC ramifications. I dont see why we need to be so possessive of quests IF the Gm has deemed them open.

[Leanthar]

What a double edge sword.

On one hand we have players talking about keeping quests open so that they can join quests, or to run more quests so that they can join quests, or to not limit quests by level limits so that they can join quests.

On the other hand we have players talking about allowing player X, Y, Z (or whatever) in to quests for various reasons or because they are higher level. Do you see the contradiction of these two requests? It is a no-win situation and the team is trying to do the best we can in a given situation—including on quests.

On then on top of all of that we have players talking about how it is unfair for epics to be allowed to join quests 'because they already have so many quests run for them’. First I want to state this part of things is inaccurate. I ask you to go through the calendar and find quests that deal with Epics only (IE level 21+ only—not level 12-18 or 16+ etc.)—other than the ECDQ that is run for players to get in to the epic status—of which there has only been about 14 of those series in the past 24 months. I think you will find none like that (though I could be wrong), most certainly not enough to fill the fingers on a hand—and that is in a four year time span.

Now...
Granted, in this case having a 'closed’ (contract signed) quest may indeed seem like no others should have joined but I don’t see anything where this 'rule’ is in affect. But I do understand where you the players are coming from and thinking. However, with that said I do not know what the GM had in mind nor was I there. I am also pretty willing to bet that none of the players on the quest knew what the GM had in mind. Again, I do not know what occurred (or was going to occur) with the contract or the quest. I personally feel that a good RP opportunity was missed, at least from what I have read and heard from quite a few players and a couple of GM’s.

A few things I want to point out:

1) Good RP does not require any level and adding epics to a party does not affect good RP
2) I do understand why you guys feel overshadowed when epic (or high level characters) join a quest but at the same time I know of no way to allow high level characters to join quests. If anybody has any good, solid, workable, ideas that allows for volunteers, timezones, RL, RL schedules (of players and GMs), players and GM’s coming and going then by all means lets hear them.
3) We have a large GM team that are very good at what they do, but even with that many we can not be expected to run quests for all 750+ active players (we have that many at least right now) – and certainly not for all of the individual characters. It is just impossible with all of the other issues we have to deal with (see #2 above).
4) Keep in mind that people try to do their best and even then can and will make mistakes, that is part of being a human being after all.
5) Keep in mind that this is all volunteer work and the team does the best we can at all times—sometimes it seems fair and sometimes it does not—but we always try our best.

With all of that said.... Do you know how disheartening and morale crushing it is to always try your best and then when a possible (I said possible because I do not know what was going on with the quest or what the gm had in mind) mistake happens and people blow up and get so upset? Nothing destroys a GM’s morale quicker and I think all of us want the GM’s around to run quests and keep the world fresh and engaging.

I want to encourage everybody to stop seeing your Layonara experience in a comparative way in terms of who is getting what more than whoever else you play with. We all need to learn to enjoy our own personal Layonara for what it is and if that is enough to look beyond all of the other tedious and frustrating things—this is a game after all. Step back, see a bigger picture and try to think of all of the other players, keeping in mind that at one time they were where you are now and had to choose what quests to go on or not. Keeping in mind that everybody has their own schedules and life and that includes the GM Team. So think of the positive experiences and if that continues to be better than the negative then come to Layonara and enjoy your time—this is true for any game out there, including MMO’s.

On a final note: I have heard it mentioned a number of times how the plot quests or other series cater to epics and that is so far from the truth it is out right wrong. But to try and show what I mean I have listed the plot quests since 4th quarter 2004, straight from the calendar. I hope this will go a ways to show you that people get 'targeted’ on a few things, such as X quest was 18+ so that must mean all quests are like that—they do not take a few minutes to step back and see the bigger picture.

Plot Quests since 4th quarter 2004:

August 2004:
I will try to run a 3-5 hour quest based on the plot on this day. It will be open to any level, though it could be dangers for those that are 7th and below.

Time is in PST.

September 2004:
Meant for levels 6+ for the most part. During the storms part it is open to all levels. After that I highly recommend 6+ levels only.

This will probably last 3-4 hours.

Time is in PST.

November 2004:
Open to levels 5+ for the most part. Low levels may be hard pressed though. But much of this will be based around the Lost Library and other NPC's. (This is assuming Bioware has released 1.64 and we have it patched on the server)

It will probably last 4-6 hours.

Time is in PST.

March 2004:
Level 12+ only, max of 12 character. Be forewarned, very dangerous. Quest starts at Ozlo's Tower.

2pm PST and it will last 3-4 hours.

March 2005:
This quest is open to levels 9+, max of 20 players. Once every few centuries the two moons and distant planets align. During that time magic is at its most powerful. What is to come on this Crimson Moon?

Depends on what happens but this could be a deadly quest, also depending on what happens, it will last 3-5 hours. Quest begins in Bloody Gate.

3pm PST


April 2005:
Levels 12+ only, max 12 characters. It will last 3-5 hours. Quest starts at Xora's Tower. Remeber, dying at a Bloodpool always gives a death token.

2pm PST

April 2