The Hunt - Discussion

[Harlas Ravelkione]

Last nights session was cancelled due to more incoming e-mails with complaints about how the previous session was handled. To once and for all to get the air cleaned (and because I was most certainly not in the mood after reading them) I decided to discuss the matters openly with the party. The following is the log from that discussion.
I hope that it will be able to clear up any misconceptions and possible mistakes on both sides, so that we can continue next week in a different and better way.
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Harlas : So, let me state a few facts first... things that were misunderstood. Urgas Bouldershoulder: //seems like there is a bunch of people missing Harlas : There were 17 players on the first quest. I said a max party size of 12 in my first post, but I hate turning people away Harlas : And I imagine you hate to be turned away Harlas : The contract was signed IC. Harlas : At the begininng of the 1.st session I said that the party was locked. Harlas : By that I meant that session. And only that session. 17 people were enough. Harlas : I was probably not clear enough on that part. Harlas : For the second installment 13 people showed up. Harlas : No problems there... still, the quest post said notihng about the party being locked. Harlas : It said that if the group was too large (meaning the 17 people from the 1.st session were there) newcomers could not get in Harlas : 3.rd session. Harlas : I was contacted by 3 players who would like to join my quest. Harlas : They could have been 3 of you for all we know. Harlas : I do not favour anyone... not GMs, not any players. Harlas : I did not inform the party of this because I hoped that this might create some fancy RP when these known characters suddenly turn up at the party Harlas : Still... if there were 15 or more players at the beginning of the 3.rd session, they would not have been allowed to join. Harlas : 7pm GMT... 11 players were on Central - in total Harlas : including the 3 new people Harlas : I had Munnin port you to the party and entertain you there, interact with you as NPC... while I got the newcomers into the quest Harlas : I looked at my watch... that took approximately 20 minutes Harlas : In some complaints has been stated it took more than an hour. Harlas : That is not true. Harlas : Now is when the trouble started. Harlas : Some people saw the newcomers and were offended by them being allowed on the quest. Harlas : They stopped interacting... also with the NPCs on the quest. Harlas : Agreed, Triba and Eldarwen had some interaction... but mainly due to the fact that others did not take the initiative Harlas : I walked around with the Baron at the party, waiting for people to talk to him, but that did not happen. Harlas : After the party people spread out. Harlas : Varka talked to someone alone, Angela did this as well... Harlas : others talked to another NPC, and to Jerika. Harlas : Eldarwen and Triba interacted with an NPC right after the party... simply because they approached him first. Harlas : Then they had another 5 minutes with a woman and her children - not more than 5 minutes that I was with them. Harlas : Still, people felt that they took over. Harlas : not once did anyone of the group who signed the contract talk to them about your stakes in this Harlas : Ask them if they would help you? Or simply tell them your stakes are too high, and you do not want them in. Harlas : Then they would have left, and that would have been that. Harlas : I had hoped for some interaction... also because I surprised you by putting them in. Harlas : That blew into my face. Harlas : I am sorry if there were things I did not tell clearly enough about the party being locked and the party size. Harlas : but I will not close a quest because players wish it to be closed. Harlas : If players do not wish outsiders into the group, they must take that conflict with these people. Harlas : In character. Harlas : I try to give as much freedom to the players as possible. Harlas : let you steer the ship... talk to whom you want and when you want. Harlas : Had you wanted to bring in other players to help you... Ozy, Remiel... or 3 lvl 2 people that would have been okay with me. Harlas : During my last series I locked the party for 6-8 sessions Harlas : During that time there were many many people who would have liked to attend. Harlas : This time I tried to keep things open. Harlas : now, lastly... Harlas : I play on Layo for entertainment. Harlas : I GM on layo to entertain others, myself and give back to the community Harlas : if people on my quests do not like how I run things I cannot see why they are coming. Harlas : I will free anyone from the contract who wishes so. Harlas : They will no longer be bound by it. Harlas : I am getting rather tired of this whole conflict... e-mails being sent to different GMs, the same things that keep surfacing, even though I thought I was clear on some of the points in my post. Harlas : So... I will not run it tonight because my mood is terrible right now. Harlas : I hope it will be better next week Kilkenny: I totally understand you.. And I'm sorry to hear this.. I think that is good that you don't close the quests.. This was supposed to be my first in a long time.. i have a hard time to jouin them due to time zones and RL.. Harlas : now... please, comments. I may be missing things, or I just have not understood some of the things that were going on behind the scenes. Yardislan Echron: Thank you for taking the time to talk to us instead of just cancelling the quest. Good form. Urgas Bouldershoulder: [Tell] keep up the good work you are doing a great jobb Alantha T'sarran: Yes, agree there Elladan Peters: agreed Elladan Peters: and appreciated Ireth Telrunya: Aye thanks Storold Doesscha: *Nods in agreement* Lin'da Sul'Kolindo: Well I could understand some of the things. Felt like I was invisible for the entire party Yardislan Echron: Personally, I didn't realize that people thought the new folks were taking over. I actually thought they didn't do *enough* as per my comment at the end of the episode. Lin'da Sul'Kolindo: But you know who complained Harlas, they wrote it on the forums as well.. Harlas : Not all did. Harlas : Don't blame Varka for it, I'd say. He became a spokesperson mostly.... talked to him later on. Yardislan Echron: It just seemed to me that they were standing off to one side, and then went off to play with puppies and children instead of contributing. But my perspective is limited. Alantha T'sarran: You did make clear the party wasn't locked forever and a day though, right? I never percieved it to be a locked group. Just some roof on max number / session Harlas : I think they did this to let the group plan whatever they wanted to plan. And hoped that they would either let them into the group, or turn them away. Lin'da Sul'Kolindo: Yes.. I looked at the signup, and if had said locked or no more peopel, I would not have come. Lin'da Sul'Kolindo: But 90% quests on Layo are this way, and it was refreshing to try to get into a quests and not know everytihng , learn it the hard way. Just didnt happen Harlas : Perhaps I wasn't clear enough on the locked thing. Elladan Peters: To be fair, I had got the impression that it was locked. full stop. That was a misunderstanding on my part Ireth Telrunya: And on mine Ireth Telrunya: I thought the contract locked us in Harlas : *nods* I'll make sure that doesnt happen again. Harlas : It did. Harlas : But you could still get help from the outside. Elladan Peters: *shrugs* but that happens, we're all human Harlas : These people would just not be caught by the contract. Elladan Peters: or, presumable, paid by it Harlas : I left the decision to you, it was just never taken. Ireth Telrunya: That was the bit I didn't find very clear Harlas : *nods to Elladan* Yes, no payment either Alantha T'sarran: I was very tired last session, so I kept myself in a passive mood... maybe I wasn't the only one though, since no one objected to the new commers...? Yardislan Echron: I want to make it clear that I didn't object to the presence of the newcomers. As far as I'm concerned, as long as the quest isn't explicitly locked and stated so on the calendar, new people can join. Storold Doesscha: I was passive because my character still doesn't know half of what is really going on because he was dead on the most of the first quest Harlas : Unfortunately not everyone could make it tonight. Some of those who could not, however, have PM'ed me telling me that it is not because of what happened last session. Elladan Peters: Thats good, at least Harlas : yes... although some of those not here would have more to say in this argument I think. Harlas : Would have been good had they been able to be here. Ashand Fearilan: this is the first i herd of it sorry had no idea there was this many problems for new people added Harlas : Normally it isnt. Ashand Fearilan: and what session are you guys on? Harlas : i've never experienced it before Lin'da Sul'Kolindo: Same here.. Yardislan Echron: Yeah. I wish Pan and Storm were here, because I think I was one of the more openly vocal about their actions or perceived lack of them. Lin'da Sul'Kolindo: Ive always been welcomedd into a party every single time I joined late or further ahead on a quest Harlas : They had a quest until 2 hours ago... they are sleeping it out I think. Lin'da Sul'Kolindo: So was a new experience for me aswell Elladan Peters: I think the specific characters involved were an issue, in some ways Yardislan Echron: I think Harlas is pretty accomodating as it is, numbers-wise. After all, I did turn up late at the first two episodes due to a class running overtime, and he let me in. Alantha T'sarran: Well you could have been one of the Baron's servant wizards :P Harlas : The thing I felt was the worst is how much of the anger was aimed at Storm and Pan. Elladan Peters: Given that they were "epics", and string characters, people expected them to take over, whether they did or not Harlas : Actually they held back. Elladan Peters: That expectation, led them to be passive. Self fulfilling Harlas : Had they wanted to take over they could have easily done it, since most people were passive. Elladan Peters: aye Ashand Fearilan: and that was the 5th session? Yardislan Echron: There are ways to make input without taking over, though. Harlas : Whatever they did, it would have seemed wrong. Ireth Telrunya: I wouldn't go that far Harlas : They hang back to let the group do what they do and seem self fulfilling. Harlas : They go up front and are blamed to take over. Yardislan Echron: Understandably on Storm's part. As I've been led to understand, he'd been given a hassle for the very same thing on the quest he was on before this one. Elladan Peters: Tahts not quite what I meant Harlas : *nods* I know there are. Lin'da Sul'Kolindo: Well you seen everywhere really Lin'da Sul'Kolindo: Levels matter Harlas : But much of what came from this was based on misconceptions. Lin'da Sul'Kolindo: if you like it or not Yardislan Echron: I have to agree. Miscommunications just built on top of each other and drove things down. Harlas : Lets take the situation where you speak about sneaking inside. Harlas : Eldarwen suggested to send in Triba. Suggested. But no one heard that. Ireth Telrunya: Yes they did Elladan Peters: I did Ireth Telrunya: We argued over using Triba or Abi Elladan Peters: and discussed it Ireth Telrunya: Eld and Triba were quite rude about Abi going Urgas Bouldershoulder: yes thats right i think Harlas : Yes, but many people heard them commanding you to send in Triba. Ireth Telrunya: that's because they were rude about Abi going Harlas : I agree that Eldarwen was frank about it. Harlas : Saying that Triba is the best sneak on Layo. Yardislan Echron: I interpreted rudeness. Not that they commanded, but because they implied that Abi was markedly inferior. Ireth Telrunya: Aye same here Yard Harlas : She probably is, and she could have held back on that... BUT that is her character. Elladan Peters: yes, it was IC, very Harlas : They RPed their characters as I know them both. Yardislan Echron: That's true. Something I didn't consider until my OOC remarks were already said. Ireth Telrunya: Aye and it's ours if we decided we don't like it Harlas : If you dont like it, you could have been rude to them... and told them to pike off Lin'da Sul'Kolindo: I did.. Elladan Peters: I think we were quite rude! Harlas : hehe Ireth Telrunya: I was rude to them Harlas : yeah... but it could have stayed IC Elladan Peters: and IIRC, that was the only time the contract was discussed Ireth Telrunya: Aye it was Ashand Fearilan: hehe i wasnt rude....i dont think Harlas : The mess is that it all turned into OOC. Lin'da Sul'Kolindo: actually only I had a reason to be ed at them at that time Yardislan Echron: That was a clear sign of miscommunication and misconception there, though. I thought they were making an OOC judgment on someone's skills being lower. Ireth Telrunya: I agree again Yard Elladan Peters: valid Harlas : Nah, Eldarwen just believes in Triba. Thats all their is to it. Lin'da Sul'Kolindo: Do you know anyone Ic that is a better sneak that triba? Yardislan Echron: I'd never actually adventured with Eld and Tribs together at the same time, so I didn't realize. Harlas : But okay... I can see how you may have understood it that way. Elladan Peters: A hard question, given that IC I don't know Trba at all Ashand Fearilan: then they must be great rpers....if they can make you think thas what they think Ireth Telrunya: I don't know Triba is a good sneak Ireth Telrunya: I know Abi is a fine sneak Yardislan Echron: Heh. personally, I don't care how good of a sneak you are. If you don't have HiPS and you're spotted, you're toast. Harlas : But... try to look at rudeness and such IC. Don't let stuff like this get to you. Alantha T'sarran: Lalaith Va'lash is good too, Abi as well... but there is that difference in levels... like it or not. They get a few more skillpoints Elladan Peters: actually, looking at their rogue type levels, there may not be much betweeen them Harlas : True. But you could have send in 3 if you wanted. Lin'da Sul'Kolindo: I got more IC respect for Lal than I do for Triba Lin'da Sul'Kolindo: should haves suggest her Harlas : Abi, Ireth and Triba for that matter. Ireth Telrunya: I suggested that Alantha T'sarran: // Lal wasn't along though unfortunately Ireth Telrunya: I got told it would be too risk Elladan Peters: but Triba refused Harlas : I know. Ireth Telrunya: exactly Harlas : But thats where you need to stand your ground. Yardislan Echron: I tried to keep Yardislan's attitude on the matter IC. The fact is that he knows that Abi and Lalaith share similar skills, and that they can more or less vanish before your eyes. He hasn't heard that Triba can do the same. Harlas : Its you who is in trouble. Ireth Telrunya: I did until I was told IC it was a trap Ireth Telrunya: At which point I admit I gave up Harlas : Yeah.. Varka had things going on on the side. Harlas : hehe... this could have been soo much fun. Harlas : Still may be. Lin'da Sul'Kolindo: WE got split all over from that pount Yardislan Echron: So did Yard... I didn't find out about Varka's actions until afterward. Who *did* end up dragging out the guards? Lin'da Sul'Kolindo: Ael Harlas : Who knows that? Harlas : I am not telling. Lin'da Sul'Kolindo: Ael did Yardislan Echron: okay. Just wanted to check. Lin'da Sul'Kolindo: your welcome Storold Doesscha: That happened on an other installment as well so there is nothing wrong with splitting Harlas : Only problem with it is that people are left standing around. Storold Doesscha: Well I cold have followed the group if I wanted to Yardislan Echron: Nonsense. Yard is formulating a plan as we speak. haha. Harlas : I'd suggest that you stay more together... so that everyone gets the info, and everyone is more involved all the time. Elladan Peters: *nods* Ireth Telrunya: Fair point Harlas : But again, I try to leave it to players what they do. Harlas : if they split, they split. Yardislan Echron: A noble effort. Elladan Peters: having two GM's must help a lot Yardislan Echron: gah. listen to me. I'm talking like Yard. Harlas : It does... but still, 6 factions are a lot. Elladan Peters: *laughs* I bet Storold Doesscha: The only problem I have got about what happened was that noone told me who the drow hunter was Harlas : Jerika. She's going to be back, don't worry. Yardislan Echron: heh. I get the distinct feeling that she's not going to be happy. Alantha T'sarran: hmm Elladan Peters: I mus say that if I know there are 2 gm's and I can see 2 npc's talking, I'm reluctant to appraoch a thrid Ireth Telrunya: Aye Harlas : I'd suggest your next move is that you gather what information you have. Many single characters know bits and pieces... its a huge puzzle as it is now. Alantha T'sarran: NExt time, if the group gets too divided for what ever reason... perhaps if Jerika shows up it would pulls things together again Yardislan Echron: Is someone saving a log? Might cut down some misconceptions if the people who aren't here get to see what we talked about. Harlas : *nods* I'll save it. Harlas : So... a forum thread might help you in this gathering of information. Harlas : I do not pass information again and again. Harlas : And my quests can be failed. Harlas : But... I also like to reward people. Yardislan Echron: *jingles Yard's 50k* yeah... got all this for people just in case of the former. Harlas : Again... I like to leave it to the group to take the initiative. Storold Doesscha: Very much as people gets too focused on gathering more information and forgets that half of the party isn't in the same place Elladan Peters: easy to do, if you're "on a roll" Storold Doesscha: Sure but when I asked who the drow where nobody cared to answer me Harlas : Nothing more? please, if you have criticism just come out with it. Lin'da Sul'Kolindo: well, I heard enuff. I'll look forward to the next series. Thanks for expaling behind the scenes on this. Yardislan Echron: I think I've said everything I wanted to. Lin'da Sul'Kolindo: I got one point, but I'll talk to you about in pm Yardislan Echron: I just hope Storm and Pan understand where I was coming from with my comments. Urgas Bouldershoulder: *nods* many good points from all here Ashand Fearilan: i dont like green peas Harlas : Yeah... I know that they were a bit put off by all of it. Harlas : They didn't feel very welcome. Elladan Peters: For em, this was complicated by the fact that Elladan doesn't get on with ELd at all Harlas : *nods* But thats fine. Ashand Fearilan: //afk Ireth Telrunya: Well they weren't well Eld at least. Ireth and her have 'history' Harlas : Run your IC conflicts... they spice it up. Yardislan Echron: IC conflict is good. OOC conflict, not so much. Harlas : *nods* And its the OOC that put them a bit off. Alantha T'sarran: Alantha has/had IC issues with them... and so being passive it most certainly wouldn't include welcomming them into the group... Elladan Peters: yes, but I think that, becasue some people were feeling "out of sorts" it spilled over Elladan Peters: IC got blurred with OOC, or seemed to Harlas : There were many reasons. These were some of them. Harlas : Alright. I'll pass out a little something for your time. Lin'da Sul'Kolindo: beer? Yardislan Echron: hahaha Alantha T'sarran: pie! Elladan Peters: Can I just say, for the record Yardislan Echron: Pie and beer party. Ashand Fearilan: //back Harlas : yes Elladan? Elladan Peters: that the first two episodes were enjoyable Ireth Telrunya: Aye, seconded Storold Doesscha: I hope the beer isn't the badger kind Harlas : Noted... thank you Elladan Peters: NP Yardislan Echron: I think the effort you put in is very good. I just think it's a shame that it all went awry last episode.

[Ar7]

Read it through, tired my eyes like hell. Anyway, good that it's sorted out, I never understood why there were so much anger over a couple of added players. After all, we all play for fun. I always thought the more players there are, the more interesting the game gets, more interactions, events etc.

Just like to point a few things after reading through the log. I didn't make to the last session because of RL events, not because of the above conflict and I stayed passive during the quest because i am usually very tired on Thursdays and not because I was ignoring somebody.

[666hellspawn]

i really didn't wanna comment on anything again and let things slide by.....but...
now we are discussing abi and triba...and how much faith someone can have in triba....saying she is better ic is not right since both triba and eldarwen don't know abi's skill, so how can they assume that triba is better then abi, you can only assume that if you use ooc knowledge ic....not that it really matters to me who is better at what, if someone questions abi's skill she will always walk away....so whatever you might think ...abi stayed in char by not being with the group, for all she cared the group could do it all without her.

[Harlas Ravelkione]

Ignoring a character due to things that happen on the quest is just fine - as long as people are not OOC offended by IC behavior. I just hope that is not what happened.

And regarding what you are writing about assumptions regarding other people's skills. Of course someone can say that someone is better than your character in sneaking. If there were two lvl 1 characters (Peter and Bob) on the quest Peter could claim that Bob, who is his friend, is much better at sneaking than Abigail (who is game mechanics wise 15 times better). There might be little Abi could say or do to convince Peter that is not so, because he knows Bob and feels that Bob is really excellent at sneaking! And no one is better than Bob! Surely not this girl who pretends she can sneak. Levels have absolutely nothing do to do with this. Its all RP, AND IT IS ALL IC!

[Dorganath]

I do want to caution everyone posting in this thread. Don't turn this into a debate or a round of finger-pointing and accusations, or this thread will be locked.
I stronglyurge everyone to drop the assumptions, to keep the OOC from bleeding into the IC situations and to gain some perspective from this situation as a whole, both what happened in-game, what happened on the forums and especially the effects from both of those which culminated in Harlas' post above.
At this point, it no longer matters who started what, who made what mistakes, who is better at X than someone else and why, or any of the other things that have been brought up since last week. What matters if that we all take a look at this situation, whether involved directly or not, whether a GM or not, whether epic or level 1 and understand that what has happened, understand the mistakes that were made and understand how this was bad for the game and bad for the community.
Once again, don't turn this into a debate or finger-pointing thread, or else it will be locked.

[miltonyorkcastle]

Amen, Dorgy. Amen.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

Just one point on perception of others' skills, from someone who wasn't on the quest all this controversy has cropped up around.

If a character hasn't seen it or heard it, how would they know it? A level 1 half-orc barbarian can look at a level 40 halfling rogue, and still see nothing but a puny smallthing, who, for all the half-orc knows, could be mashed on a whim. Paul the Shrubber isn't going to know that Ricky Rogue, the flashy, loud human, is going to have a higher Move Silently check than Mary Monk, the quiet, graceful halfling, and would likely think Mary would sneak better than Ricky, until he'd seen otherwise.

Come on. IC|=|OOC. This is the single best place I've ever seen in regards to player/character distinction, so why is this sort of thing happening, eh? We're players on Layonara Online. Sure, we screw up occasionally, but we move on, and learn from it.

I look forward to hearing about the next installment of this quest, as I'm sure it'll be, to discard what little eloquence I command, freakin' awesome.

[GhostWhoWalks]

Umm.. the name. Triba is probably the most well known scout and stealth specalist on the continent...?

[KageKeeper]

GhostWhoWalks - 2/17/2006 7:58 PM

Umm.. the name. Triba is probably the most well known scout and stealth specalist on the continent...?

*nods* Very true. That is what is part of being an "epic" character. Everyone knows of you at the very least.

Even if its all exagerated, epics are just that...epic!

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

*He shrugs.* In a setting like this, it's far too easy for a player to not get enough exposure to the tales about any given Epic, no matter how much playtime that player may have. As such, the player will, at least if they play as I do, usually have thier characters put more faith in the people that they have interacted with and heard about during active playtime, rather than whomever's supposed to be "Epic" at the time.

I sense a fundamental break in logic, but I'm not sure where, or by whom.

[xXDenizeNXx]

It's hard when you got 17 people on a quest to include a little slice of the pie for everyone, but I also understand how Abi would feel too having said the first part. With so many folks it's kinda hard for me to offer a solution so my statement remains just a statement not a solution.
The only real thing I can really come up with is more GM's and smaller parties I guess, but I bet thats been suggested before as well and I imagine co-ordinating over 40 GM run quests a month is dang hard work as it is for the admin types!
So gratitous butkissing aside my hat goes off to you all that donate so much of your time.

As a side note I think I pm'ed Stormy aka Elderwren the other night on a quest and apologised for leaving early and stated I was flat out lost half the time because I was awed and a LIttle intimidated by Acacea's and Elderwrens RP. I mean half the time I was laughing my butt off at there antics and witticisms LOL and the other half I was sitting back thinking how can I contribute here I feel left out. Apologies to Stormy, Pan and Faednz if this seems like a dig , it isn't, but it is easy to feel insignificant when watching you guys in action.....and funny too hehe
So my belated point is....
we all like a little slice of the action, to be center of attention don't we? I mean why else put all this time and effort into a charachter? But in a party of 17 folks it is hard to get around to everyone unfortunately.
any suggestions?
Peace
Den

[GhostWhoWalks]

There are more people in the world than the players, just like there are things your character does when you aren't playing him.

Some names, some people... are famous. World famous. What we call 'epic' usually means they have reached a level of exposure that just about everyone knows of them.

If you're evil and epic, it may be like...

"Don't stay out late, or the Coldfinger will get you."

If you're Triba, there's probably a dozen tales of her vanishing from sight or whatever.

So sure... you can pretend you've never heard of her. But unless you play a woodsman or someone highly isolated from society, it's unlikely. And even if you haven't... others in the party would have and would know of the stories of her prowess.

Could they just be stories...? Of course. But most legends begin with a grain of truth. And most people know that.

Hero's and villians of great stature get talked about. They get sung about. They are the stuff of legends.

[lonnarin]

"Don't stay out late, or the Coldfinger will get you..."

LOL! I just shot beer out through my nose right there. Hopefully one day people will warn eachother in the taverns... "Hey don't drink so much, you'll start seeing Rakishes!" Gods help that unfortunate bloke.