Fantasy Novels

[MJZ]

After reading many, many reviews (Amazon, mainly) of various recent, and not so recent, very successful fantasy novels, I'm starting to think that the genre might be glutted to bursting. So I thought I'd ask this community of obvious appreciators of fantasy your opinions!

Firstly, it seems a rule of thumb that about 80% or more of all reviews of these successful novels by big names in the genre, are 5-star, and give practically no critical input. The gist of these and generally, all the 4-star reviews as well are more often than not: "this is an excellent book, I enjoyed it so much, it was so well written, and the characters were so real and well drawn." Now, this really doesn't provide any measure of information or insight - so I've devoted most time to the 3-star and below ratings, particularly, the 1-star reviews, which seem to be an even 10% of all total reviews from every book by whatever author. Interesting.

In any case, I think I'll pose my question now instead of blathering senselessly on. Do you think the fantasy genre is glutted as far as novels go? I assume most people here have read more than one fantasy novel - I know I have, and I have to say I honestly never really read one I enjoyed, and I stopped reading them at about the age of 15.

This is fantasy. One should think by mere definition it should provide for endless opportunities, new worlds, new ideas. And yet, they all seem to have been done, and re-done to the point of nausea - kind of the feeling students get when they see canned soup. I think that maybe this problem stems from the fact that we read fantasy expecting certain elements that we love - but this results in those elements being repeated, over and over and over; and writers who perhaps invent some novel (hehe) ideas, get bashed over the head for daring to leave out the fundamental basics - "where's the typical hero? where are the wizards? where's the main villain, like Thulsa Doom or Lord Vader?" etc.

Alright, we can't please everyone. You could say that the overwhelming amount of positive reviews prove that the genre is not glutted - but I beg to differ, I think fads tend to disappear just as suddenly as they cropped up, without warning, and with recent mass-appealing projects gaining cult-like followings of millions (Harry Potter, fantasy series being made into movies in general), I'm sorry to say it seems fantasy really has become a fad, to the general public, at least. And fads, as I've just said, have a habit of dying after they've been glutted.

So, is the market glutted or nearly so? Will you continue to buy fantasy books from new authors as they emerge? Are you incapable of growing tired of predictable and unavoidable prophecies, insanely powerful wizards, that damned apparent struggle between good and evil, and a few different humanoid races to make characters seem more interesting?

I'm afraid dozens upon dozens of reviews have made me even more cynical than I already am, and I've begun to think that no matter how adolescent the themes, weak the characterization, poor the quality of writing, unoriginal and predictable the plots, or pilfered the concepts, only about ten percent of readers will perceive it.

I've played fantasy and science fiction games for as long as I can remember, watched fantasy and sci fi series and movies for as long as I can remember, and read fantasy and sci fi books, yes, for as long as I can remember (had fantasy read to me before I could read well myself, I think we all did). I've spent many many hours spewing out my own fantasy plots and characters, as I think many appreciators do. I don't eat it up with a spoon - I stick my head in the damned bowl. But I'm not a mindless goon or a rabid cultist, I do read and appreciate fine literature as well, I am capable of making critical analyses. And so it worries me, to see so much seemingly mindless, unwarranted following of the genre - leading me to think it might be (last time I'm going to use this word, I promise), glutted.

Is it?

Glutted!


As a side note, I wish I could have made a poll, but I wasn't able to find the option. I assume it's been disabled? That's a shame..

[Nehetsrev]

Well, if you're talking about originality of plot, there is no such thing in any writing genre. In fact, back in highschool, my favorite English teacher, in the Creative Writing class he taught, instructed us all of that very fact. That doesn't mean that writers can't be creative in defining their fictional worlds and characters that inhabit them, nor does it limit nescessarilly their creativity in writing possibly unexpected twists.

Good vs. evil is a powerful and popular theme. It can be done with stark contrast, or with very subtle nuance. Yet, ultimately, in every story some form of conflict must be pressent to drive the story forward and hopefully hold the interest of the reader. It's true whether it's the internal conflict of the protagonist filled with self doubt about what is right or wrong, or fast-paced action-packed rivalry between protagonist and antagonist, or even protagonist vs. setting (where the main character(s) struggle to survive a harsh world wrought with natural disasters, etc) in which case the setting is at the same time the antagonist.

The publishing industry tries to sellect stories based on what seems to sell best at the time. Hence when something unexpected does make bigger ripples and grabs the attention of more readers than the last fad, the publishing industry is quick to promote to excess that success, and attempt to duplicate it with as many other stories of similar content as can be gotten away with. So you're right, the industry goes through periods of fads, and lulls, when readers begin to look for something different than what's been over-produced. Many readers are content to read stories that are similar to their chosen favorites, simply because they do find creativity put into some of the smaller details than make one story different from the others that are otherwise clones in their basic make-up.

Perhaps the only way to find those jewels that are (seemingly) so different from what you've read before, is to read profusely everything you can get your hands on, and talk to other readers who do the same to find out what favorites they might've discovered in their readings. Don't rely much at all on reviews printed on the backs of books, or in popular magazines, becuase those are written for the sole purpose of selling more copies. Find folks with tastes that are both similar and different than your own and try reading things they recommend and you might be surprised that you like something as much as they do.

You like odd aliens? try some of Hal Clement's works, in my opinion the man had a gift for writing not just bizare looking aliens, but writing alien mindsets to go with them.

You like funny fantasy/sci-fi? Try Piers Anthony's Xanth novels, or the old Spellsinger series by Allen Dean Foster (who by the way also writes some good aliens in other books), and few can dispute the masterful humor of the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy books by Douglas Adams (or his less popular, but just as great in my opinion, Dirk Gently books). Kieth Laumer's character Retief is also great for some good laughs. And of course Harry Harrison's Stainless Steel Rat, or his Bill the Galactic Hero (the original story of Bill is the best, the sequels are just mainly parodies of popular movies, etc.).

For deeper characters, you might try the Chronicals of Thomas Covenant by Stephen R. Donaldson (the main character is a lepper!), or the Wheel of Time series by Robert Jordan (which I admit seems to get too strung-out in later books of the series, as it seems the author runs out of steam a bit and begins to just write to full-fill the contract to a series he's lost interest or inspiration in completing).

In the end, it all comes down to what do you feel like reading most, and do you just need a book or two that are different from your norms to shake things up a bit or do you need to stir up your interest in books that are different than what you consider your favorites and take on new favorites?

And the best option of all, if you have access to a public library, by all means use it and exhaust it's resources! That's what public libraries are there for, paid for by the public tax dollars for the public to use.

[ycleption]

Short answer: yes.
Long answer: Well, you seem to have answered your question pretty well there...

There is plenty of relatively original and literate fantasy out there, it just can be hard to find, and it is far far outnumbered by the masses of junky, cloned, rip-offs of other authors.

[Polak76]

This is an opportunity for people to quote some fantasy books that break the mould.

Nehetsrev quoted Stephen Donaldson above. I remember he did something different which I read ages ago and I think the title is something like "Mirror of her dreams" and "A man rides through it". Excellent two book series that combined fantasy, future and present.

I just devoured a book recently from Terry Brooks called Armageddons children. I really enjoyed it and can't wait for the next one. (maybe its already out...i'll need to check) THis one is post-apocolyptic science/myth/fantasy. Great read.

A while back i started Cecelia Dart Thorntons 'Ill Made Mute' which was rich and extremely well written. I'd place her up there with tolkien any day. But what made this book cool was all the old folk lore and myth originating from Wales, England, Ireland..etc. It incorporated some learning in it for me which i always find interesting. I loaned her next books out and have forgotten who i loaned them to. Otherwise I'd get stuck into them again.

I'm with you that the typical Boy grows up, boy becomes man, man is powerful, man saves world, mans great grandchild (Book 9) saves the world again...etc. This does get long in the tooth.

I think I'm up to book 9 or something in the wheel of time but I'm finding it hard to get back into as they are huge reads and are beginning to lose the attraction book 1-5 had.

Over all I'd agree that its somewhat glutted. However, with some good recommendations there are plenty of interesting reads out there. One day if they invent a drug that keeps me awake 24/7 I might be able to read them all.

[MJZ]

Eh heh, confused young heroine receives advice from requisite father figure?

Originally Posted by Nehetsrev

Well, if you're talking about originality of plot, there is no such thing in any writing genre. ... That doesn't mean that writers can't be creative in defining their fictional worlds and characters that inhabit them, nor does it limit nescessarilly their creativity in writing possibly unexpected twists.

Definitely! In literature, as in science and well, pretty much any other field, everyone is standing on the shoulders of those who preceded them. And in 2007 - that's a lot of shoulders! There's always, always room for personalization - styles, characters, insights that are unique to an author, no matter how tried and tired the genre. Anyways, thank you for writing that post, Nehetsrev, it really made ME feel a lot better.

Very true about the reviews/commentary on the back of books and in some magazines and such things. They're all just carbon copies of one another, too - "a grand epic on a grand epic scale from a new voice.... not since [insert famous name here] has an author so captivated readers... a stunning tale of love, loyalty, war, and betrayal..." heh.

You're right, comedic fantasy/sci fi can be near genius, and such a light-hearted (and well, brilliant) way of dealing with the aggravating elements of genre I was complaining about.

Ah yes, Robert Jordan - reviewers and fans tend to be quite a bit ignorant in their accusations and assumptions (but then, who isn't), and very few seem to have thought of the possibility that writers can have contracts for a full series, like you say. Nevertheless, I guess nothing's stopping one from enjoying the earlier works, if they feel the latter ones fall short, right?

And the library! I spent a lot of time there as a child/teenager. I agree, it's there for a reason - and it's probably a perfect place for genre books, seeing as how there are dozens and dozens and dozens of them, and it can take some time for you to find an author/series you really enjoy. Without spending lots of cash. :B

Ooh, Stephen Donaldson. Heh, while "The Mirror of Her Dreams" did have overall very high scores (as did nearly all the bigger titles... as I've said... should stop repeating myself...), the 3-1star reviews pounded it into the ground so hard, it made me laugh... ha ha I should get my hands on something of his, and see which side of the fence I'm on (though I can take a guess).

Heh perhaps I should say, that as a rule, I have never loved, and only on very rare occasion liked the "main character" in fantasy. Brr. So, leper does sound much more intriguing than... what... 18-35 yr old brown-haired boy becomes man? Brr.
Sci Fi tends to make some more creative main characters, I think, though it's still common...

And yes, this would be a good place for people to post titles of books/authors of fantasy (and sci fi) that they felt broke the so-called mold, offered something new, or a new take on something old, or even was extremely well-done despite adhering to the mold, what have you. I'd really appreciate that.

[Nehetsrev]

Another of my favorite authors, though more from the horror genre, is Robert McGammon (or sometimes McCammon, same fellow, slightly different spelling). I recommend Swan Song (in my opinion the best 'end-of-world/apocalypse' type book I've ever read), Stinger, The Night Boat, and The Wolf's Hour (this one's nice because the protagonist is a were-wolf fighting against the Nazi's during WWII). In my opinion McGammon makes anything written by Stephen King look rather amaturish, but of course that's my opinion and you may not agree.

Leo Frankowski's Cross-Time Engineer series is also pretty good. Plenty of humor here as the protagonist changes history in Poland.

If you like futuristic combat oriented books, David Drake (Hammer's Slammers comes to mind) is a great author, as is Timothy Zahn (at least I found his Cobra series pretty good).

Another mold-breaker so to speak would be the Foundation series by Isaac Asimov. The future predicted with math, got to love that premise.

Raymond Feist's Riftwar novels (at least the first five, I haven't read the rest) were interesting reads.

Fred Saberhagen's Berserker novels were interesting, and focus on collosally huge artificially intelligent war-machines bent on the destruction of all life. I also enjoyed the First, Second, and Third Book of Swords, which I found reminescent of some of the dungeon romps my dad used to DM for my friends and I when we were younger.

Larry Niven's also always been one of my favorite authors, for the first couple Ringworld novels, and other tales set in his 'Known Space' setting/universe including the Man-Kzin Wars, etc. He also collaborates well with Jerry Pournell and Steven Barnes, and such collaboration gave rise to Dream Park and it's sequels. If you want to read about aliens invading Earth done right (in my opinion) read Footfall.

Anyhow, reading a few of these titles/authors ought to get you started/refreshed perhaps, so I hope if you do that you enjoy them as much as I did.

-----
EDIT - Forgot to mention The Dragon and the George by Gordon R. Dickson.

[Falonthas]

for a definate change of pace i would suggest the liveship traders by robin hobb
ship of magic, madship and ship of destiny
you think its a typical scenario until maybe the second chapter of the first book and then you are sucked right in

[darkstorme]

Once again, I notice a dearth of a certain name: Terry Pratchett.

Often, good vs. evil is lampooned, we have characters like Vetinari who are quite possibly Lawful Evil and yet you root for him regardless, Death personified (and he always SPEAKS LIKE THIS).... the Discworld series is a delight with each successive volume. (And talk about prolific.)

If you're interested in truly cutting edge stuff, I'd recommend picking up collections like Best of SF, 2007 (and successive/previous years). These usually have writing praised by people who are themselves experimental writers. Things like Burning Chrome and Mona Lisa Overdrive got their starts in collections of that nature.

And besides which.. what's the harm in a little sword & sorcery from time to time?

[lonnarin]

I've been obsessed with the old classics by HP Lovecraft. Something about sinister psionic tentacled space demons makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside. I'm trying to tackle Stephen King's Dark Tower Series, but every 100 pages are pretty hit and miss... I'm either hanging on the edge of my seat or pulling out my eyelashes in boredom every few hours. Right now I'm in book three and they're just walking.... a lot, and staring at sand. They tend to do that between every quest, then things get all exciting for awhile, somebody central to the plotline dies, and then they just walk towards the tower some more.

I'm still just in the early 70s of my 40 years of X-men DVD, so I feel badly for neglecting it. Once I finish it cover-to-cover, it's time to order the Avengers box set! Nobody says epic heroic monologue like Captain America and Thor...

[Nyralotep]

One of my faves in Fanstasy has always been Michel Moorcock and his eternal champion series.

HP Lovecraft, and others inspired by him are always high on my horror list as well.

Lonn, if you can, get the audio book series for the Dark Tower. I had hard times with the book but the audo book series is awesome and un-abridged so you get the entire series.

[Kirbiana]

Has anyone mentioned Tim Powers yet? If you want something that blends fantasy, history and literature -- and doesn't remind you of anything else you've ever read -- I would recommend him. I especially liked Dinner at Deviant's Palace, The Anubis Gates and The Stress of Her Regard.

I also have a deep and abiding affection for two young-adult fantasy novels written by a little known American author named Elizabeth Marie Pope. One is called The Perilous Gard and takes place in Elizabethan England; the other is called The Sherwood Ring and has one of the most delightful narrative structures I've ever seen. It's one of those books that you buy two copies of when you see it, so you can keep one and lend the other out.

[Polak76]

Raymond Feist's Riftwar novels (at least the first five, I haven't read the rest) were interesting reads.

Now this is one guy that I can't boast enough about. I haven't read a bad book yet, however, his books are in the typical genre hence why i didn't mention him. I'm biased since i started them a very long time ago stemming from Magician and usually make a habit of re-reading them once every 2-3 years.

[Pseudonym]

Originally Posted by MJZ

Are you incapable of growing tired of predictable and unavoidable prophecies, insanely powerful wizards, that damned apparent struggle between good and evil, and a few different humanoid races to make characters seem more interesting?

Yep!

This is perhaps just me, but if I wanted something non-formulaic and thought provoking, I honestly wouldn't reach for my nearest fantasy novel. To me, fantasy is best when it is simple. As David Gemmell (RIP), probably one of the authors most guilty of contributing to the 'glut' of unoriginal and predictable novels put it, there are enough shades of grey in RL.

Kids screaming, wife nagging, mortgage payment looming, lawn needs mowing, RL stuff weighing heavy ... that's when I reach for my fantasy novel. And when I do, I want my plot simple, my heroes mighty thewed, my villains dark hearted, my wizards to have a long beard, my dwarves surly, the elves to be good with a bow, etc, etc, etc.

... mindless, unwarranted following of the genre ...

Guilty!

[MJZ]

Aw now, don't misunderstand me here, I didn't mean to insult the appreciators of fantasy - considering we all are, no less! I've only survived this long because of fantasy and sci fi. And you left out my qualifier - I said "seemingly mindless, unwarranted following." Seemingly! Not certainly.

And I was referring to the fact that it seems people are tagging along to fantasy because of hypes and fads lately, not because they would actually appreciate it individually - which is what happens with mass audiences, and this worries me. I hate to see something be turned into a multi-million dollar public fad: that's when it gets abused and distorted, generally. I'd rather be geeky and lonely in my preferences, heh.

I think the very nature of "escapist" literature speaks for itself. But if fantasy and formulaic have become synonyms - that's terrible. At least I think so. It's fantasy - it should be inventive. I think the reason for so much formulaic fantasy out there is precisely the fad-factor, as Nehetsrev said,

Originally Posted by Nehetsrev

The publishing industry tries to sellect stories based on what seems to sell best at the time. Hence when something unexpected does make bigger ripples and grabs the attention of more readers than the last fad, the publishing industry is quick to promote to excess that success, and attempt to duplicate it with as many other stories of similar content as can be gotten away with.

I don't think it's mindless and unwarranted at all, if you appreciate the genre. I think it seems mindless and unwarranted in a mass market - come on, we spent years hiding in the basement with our pencil and paper, and now suddenly it's cool because everyone else is doing it. Seems mindless and unwarranted. That sort of thing.

Anyhow, there's a lot of good info for writers and books on this thread. I'm looking into things! And yes, Terry Pratchett can be brilliant. Wen the Eternally Surprised. Heh.

[Nehetsrev]

Well, so far as the sitting in the basement reading all alone sentiment goes, personally I welcome titles that spawn large followings, because it pressents us 'geeks' with the opportunity to turn some of those new readers on to continued reading as well. More habitual readers becomes good for the whole writing industry, and so benefits everyone from readers, to publishers and authors. Not only that, but you also have to realize that with the money generated by such fad-type titles, publishers also gain more freedom to publish other titles. While many of those new titles might be cheap rip-offs of the fad, they lead some new authors into the limelight and enable them to focus on their next works when the fad dies, works which may be the next great thing. It's really a cycle, you see? Fad spawns new authors, new authors spawn new works when the fad dies, one or two new works are astounding but go relatively unnoticed by the masses, while one or two other works spawn a new fad.

So my advice is, when you see someone reading one of those fad titles, like Harry Potter for instance (which in my opinion is a great series despite the fad it spawned), stop them and say, "Hey, when you're done with that, try one of these insert favorite lesser known titles here, you might find you like them even more." Help fos