Divine Relation:

[DMOE]

Originally Posted by Krell Himmler

I guess I would most especially love to hear what new people say, ones who havn't been in Layonara for too long. When we are in any culture for a long period of time (including Layonara) we lose the ability to critically analyse and to find faults in things we are a part of. If they disagree with me too I'll shut up . But it would be nice to hear what they have to say.

The points brought up by all are valid as this isn't a debate with a win/lose idea or a best idea philosophy.

While I would agree that 'new eyes' never hurts a situation....

The deity relations has been in effect in the well over two years I've been here and it's never caused a problem so far....

That to me would generally imply it ain't broken, and don't need fixing...

We've just needed to occasionally remind people that you don't simply pay lip service to the deity's of Layonara....

If your a cleric or a paladin you can ONLY cast because you God/Goddess ALLOWS it....

As such, why is your deity letting you know if someone is friendly, neutral, unfriendly or enemy such a huge leap?

Hell's.....Muir can call forward massive destructive powers because Mist loves her.....Heal and raise because Mist loves her......Knowing someone is unfriendly to Mist is kinda small in comparison.

This is simply an RP issue.....

It requires good RP on the sides of all involved.

Although I do have to say.....If you choose to play a follower of the most hated god on the server....you are kinda asking for a hard life!

Don't get me wrong, I get frustrated that large amounts of the server class Mist as evil and can't see the distinction between Chaotic and Evil.....Hence why Muir engages in random 'good' acts to try and show the difference.

If nothing else it shuts people up when they find out she had two limbs ripped off to save the people of Haven or see the Shrine to Mist in Brisbane's Grove...

Ok....I'm rambling now!

But to summarise....

The deity's on Layonara are VERY active and VERY involved in their cleric's lives....

If you choose to worship Corath or even Pyrtechon .....Then your asking for the hard life and generally the best RP I have seen is those that do as Pusedo suggest and think of another God or Goddess that is unliked by the cleric in questions deity...

Hell I remember Jeran (worshipper of Pyrotechon) discussing with Muir (cleric of Mist) how he was gonna pretend to worship Toran so Corba (cleric of Lucinda) wouldn't work out he worshipped Pyrotechon.....

He was most upset when Muir pointed out Corba would never believe it cause Jeran and Muir were dating and Mist and Toran hate each other....

The kudos went to Corba for not making immediate IC assumptions that Jeran had to worship an 'evil' god/goddess.....Instead she set about slowly and IC trying to work out who he might worship from the information she had.....She still partied with him, she just didn't use her powers on him...

[Acacea]

Regarding Krell's comment about wanting fresh comments because vets become blinded by their time and unable to criticize, while that is at times true, I've also found that the more time someone spends somewhere, the more they start seeing everything wrong, even the things that are right, just like sometimes new people want so quickly to have as much as other people that have had years to do it can quickly become resentful and judgmental of those that have been around and involved... or are so into this whole place at first that they have the equivalent of infatuation blinding them to faults. Other perspectives are good, but it doesn't guarantee objectivity.

Second, 'The deity relations has been in effect in the well over two years I've been here and it's never caused a problem so far....'

What is a "problem," exactly? Complaints, concerns, people not RPing them because they don't think they're fun, etc etc. Aren't these problems? Had a bunch of those. Doesn't mean it's broken, just that they probably didn't want to work as much for a faith as we like devout characters to work, but it's not "this guy is the only one in the universe that thinks it could be better."

In fact, as a lot of us know, there didn't used to be a way for clerics to tell at all, save for the ambiguous 'bless test.' When something like Divine Relation was first suggested, it was put forward to be part of the Eye of the Soul so that a cleric about to raise someone would know as they tried that someone was unfriendly/enemy and not go further and take a dive.

In retrospective amusement, not only was this looked at quite cautiously in a "What's wrong with bless?" kind of way, but one of the hypothetical requirements put forward in response was to be sure that it would only ever work on dead people, so it couldn't be used by or on just anyone at any time.

Obviously, now we have Divine Relation, which not only can be used on anyone, but is pretty much required to be used on anyone and woe to you if you do not. I can't speak for the minds of the original responders, but knowing that the initial reaction to such an ability was "no way," a player that was not in the minds of those who created the new one and is not party to the train of thought and process that led them to believe that this was the best choice after all, to basically feel the exact same way as Dorg did when it was first suggested - don't make it all the time, and only on dead people - is not necessarily a bad thing.

As well, I agree that if someone chooses to follow the most hated god on the server that they are in for a hard life. That's why they're not interested in making it even harder with OOC complications. Most are fully prepared for all the doom they can get if it follows IC reactions, but toss in even one unfair metagaming incident and it's all over for them, often to the point of then suspecting every legit incident thereafter as potential metagaming. Happens, breeds more frustration.

The problem I have with pretending to follow a different god is that it still relies on the goodwill of your players, so if it is finding that lacking that is your problem, whether true or not, you'll just expect two clerics with different enemies to immediately pair up to hear "Really? He told me he was a Shadonite..." to call out the lie right off. Maybe that wouldn't happen, but that wasn't my point - just that the suggestion isn't much of a comfort to someone under that impression. :P

If following Pseudo's advice to the letter, I'd actually disagree there. "Some might argue that such loosely held and fluctuating faith should show up your character as neutral on a cleric's radar but..." I do.

Maybe it would fool a cleric fresh out of being an altar boy, but I'm pretty sure that if we're arguing that a) people should only fill the deity field if they are very devout and b) gods will tell them if they serve an enemy or what have you, then there's no particular reason that any serious priest is going to be fooled for very long by "oh I just tossed off a quick lip service prayer" to random gods. They'd wonder if it was just a quick prayer tossed in the heat of battle, why they got such a strong reading... after all, from the majority of commoners who do exactly the same thing, they get nothing. But maybe that's just me. Of course, if you're only traveling with them once or something then they're not going to wonder - they'll probably just assume you are more devout than you are admitting, or something. But if that's the only thing you've got to claim "there are legit ways to protect yourself!" then maybe you should start looking for good changes, too.

With how it is said to work right now, there's no reason that that should really be your best option. So either there needs to be a better way of hiding if it becomes truly necessary, or no one is expected to ever be able to hide and no one is ever supposed to play both sides or associate with opposites ever again! hehe.

[merlin34baseball]

Not to animate a dead horse... but...

I have a question, I just started playing a cleric and am unsure how to react to what I get using divine relation. I guess the question is, do I know what god they worship, or do I just know that we are friendly, enemy etc.

Also, the bless test... when you bless does it effect people whose gods are neutral to you or just allied and friendly?

Thanks!
Merlin34

[Dorganath]

You only know how your deity feels about the target's deity from Divine Relation. You do not know which deity the target follows (or in the case of a "neutral" response, if they follow a deity at all)

As for the "Bless Test", Bless only affects allies and only those whose deity (if any) is Neutral, Friendly or Allied.

Note that Bless will not generally affect NPCs regardless of faction or deity unless they're somehow in party with you.

[Lynn1020]

Can your character tell which people around him/her received the "Bless"?

[Alatriel]

Also... if they follow the same god as you, you should know it, right? (the mechanical response is "the target follows _______ as well" or something like that)

[Dorganath]

Originally Posted by Lynn1020

Can your character tell which people around him/her received the "Bless"?

Yes. Mechanically speaking, the lack of a visual effect on a given character will indicate, assuming they're within range.

Originally Posted by Alatriel

Also... if they follow the same god as you, you should know it, right? (the mechanical response is "the target follows _______ as well" or something like that)

Yes. It does report when the deity is the same as the caster.

[Drizzlin]

Originally Posted by ystrday

What I find funny is how God A views God B as friendly, but God B is unfriendly to God A. What is a cleric of God A supposed to do if a follower of God B falls in battle?

This is because gods are like mortals in the sense that they are always plotting on each other as well. God A thinks God B likes her, so she likes her back. However, God B is really trying to jack God A's man and is plotting on her!!!

[cbnicholson]

I recently used divine relation on a another char I found myself partied with and was slightly perturbed to see enemy. Now, before I rp'd blind hatred and distrust, I forced myself to review what kind of interaction the two characters had had up until this divine revelation. It was one of mutual cooperation and relative respect, so I rp'd accordingly merely stating that I would be unable to fully call upon my deity to bless his efforts, but would do my best to assure our mutual goal of survival. I did take the opportunity to preach a little about the other characters need to reassess where his loyalties and beliefs lay, hinting my character believed the other to be misquided.

A player I respect greatly once told me ic to watch character behavior, not rely on game mechanics to give me the answers..it was sound advice then and is still is, imo.

[Dorganath]

Originally Posted by cbnicholson

A player I respect greatly once told me ic to watch character behavior, not rely on game mechanics to give me the answers..it was sound advice then and is still is, imo.

Yep, to a point.

But then, your character's deity won't necessarily care about the behavior of the other character. For example, Toran will probably take issue with one of his clerics repeatedly raising and healing a devout of Xeen, regardless of the latter's outward behavior in the presence of the Toranite.

[twidget658]

Also, evil (enemy deity) people will be nice to get closer to a target so they gain their trust. Once they have the trust, then manipulation is much easier. Blind hatred is not necessary, distrust is almost absolute. There would be something about the person that you would sense that just doesn't set right. You would be able to see through their 'politeness'.

[Lance Stargazer]

Originally Posted by Dorganath

Yep, to a point.

But then, your character's deity won't necessarily care about the behavior of the other character. For example, Toran will probably take issue with one of his clerics repeatedly raising and healing a devout of Xeen, regardless of the latter's outward behavior in the presence of the Toranite.

This not what is about. Yet the point stands.

I am going to put an example in Lance and Galathea, their deities are unfriendly to each other, yet the characters have shared goal and a relation of selfrespect to the other, Of course they will never be in agreement regarding the methods they should follow, But if she has lived and respected Lance , i don't see how he should not pay with the same. Not meaning with this that Lance allows her to "bless" him or viceversa.

This is not about the mechanical blessing. The blessings should be seen as a gift of the gods , and as a charge of responsability for the use of this "gift" to ensure the god goals in the eyes of the character. But helping or giving respect and support to people who has done the same, its only what should be done. In my humble opinion.

Another example would be the same Lance and Iellwen. It was so painful when Lance learned of her following an unfriendly deity, but can't simply cut ties because of that If the other character has shown no other thing than concern and respected his wishes of no blessings after that.

Again I am totally in agreement than the Blesings should not be used. But the beheavior of the character is enterely another matter.

The former cases where on Unfriendly basis. Enemies on the other hand are a bit more tricky Indeed. As twidget pointed.

This of course may vary from Character to character. I might be biased from LG point of view.

[Dorganath]

Actually I was speaking beyond mechanics (and into the realm of divine observation) and just using something involving "blessings" as one example.

But good for you for keeping the conflict in mind.

[Gunther]

I remember one pnp game where the only cleric was a dwarf and if we wanted healed, or curses removed, or pretty much anything, we all had to kowtow and give praise to the smelly, little, goat-bearded dwarf god and say how great he was and how much we all honored him and respected him. Then, if we knuckled under sufficiently enough and convincingly enough, we'd get a cure light wounds or something equivalent. It was really aggravating, but great fun too.