What do you want from Layonara?

[Dorganath]

Formed from discussions started in this thread (and moved here so as to not further derail the original message:

http://forums.layonara.com/nwn-ideas...uggestion.html

Originally Posted by Dorganath

What do people want from Layonara? Do you want the quests? Do you want the GM involvement? Do you want the enhancements to RP and mechanics that come from having a quirky and diverse Pantheon? Or do you just want us to let you do your thing, put whatever you want on, in and near your character without consequence or requirement and just beat things up all day long, however little sense it makes to do so? Do you want the living, breathing world or do you want a gladiatorial arena where you are the champion....Aeridin's slayer of the wicked...Az'atta's redemption by steel?

I am really and truly interested in your answers, and please do not insult me by just telling me what you think I want to hear.

What this is:
It is a serious inquiry and not a "loaded question" as has been suggested, and I am respectfully requesting serious answers. It's clear quite a few of you are unhappy with one thing or the other, and while I will not even come close to making assurances we'll adjust on all things listed here, there have been (and hopefully will continue to be) some worthwhile suggestions. But we will read and listen.

This is a thread for people to respectfully state what they'd like to see overall regarding the general experience of playing here.

What this is not:
First and foremost, this is not a debate thread. It s not a place to argue and disagree with the points one person or other makes. If you have an opposing viewpoint, then state it, but do so as a stand-alone thing. Any debates will invariably spiral out of control and derail a thread that derailed another. I'd rather not have that.

It is also not a thread to nit-pick or tear apart some narrowly focused issue. This has already been done to an extent in the posts I've moved here, but moving forward, I'd prefer not to see a continued analysis of why Deity X is stupid/redundant/unplayable or how Diety Y + Class Z should be allowed because of whatever reason.

What else?
I do not plan to comment on anything said in this thread until it has run its course, and then only maybe. The primary reason is time, but also to give you all a chance to speak without my influence.

All postings need to be kept respectful and "in-bounds". I think that goes without saying, but sometimes with issues that are important to us, we get a little heated. Let's keep those emotions in check throughout. The only point at which I will moderate this thread is if this line is crossed.

And while I don't expect many of you to actually go this route, the GM Team is fair to comment upon as well, provided the above is kept firmly in mind. We will not punish anyone for giving negative opinions, but again, keep them respectful.

Personal attacks on anyone, Player or GM, will simply not be tolerated.

So OK! Please continue.

[Dorganath]

Moved from the prior thread

Originally Posted by Hellblazer

*unsure if Dorg question was rhetorical*

Well I like all of it really (the quests, the involvement, the rp everything, the great development that has been made mechanically and a lot of the new lore that was not written before for the kingdoms and such.), but this is my thought.

A lot of the changes that is iring some people at the moment, where made in prevision of the mmo.

There should be a clear distinction of what is for the MMO and what is for NWN. And with that, what you have now for NWN should stay as you have it, and what you plan for the MMO should stay only for the MMO. This way you do not impact the gaming experience of the player base. And with this am I not talking about lore development, or mechanical development or even the plot line. I mean the changes that affect the basic of the game like the refining of the deities and what is no longer acceptable but was not even 6 months ago.

You can make the MMO tid bits publications public, which is great as you keep people interested, but without having them impact the now. People would know that when the MMO is coming out, there will be changes, and they will be ready. And from past reading, none of the chars we have now would be alive in the MMO, so that would not impact us at all at that time.

But that's me, that's how I would do it personally and I fully understand that this might not be how you (the team) want to proceed

[Dorganath]

Moved from the prior thread

Originally Posted by Pibemanden

Simply put, to be entertained...

To be more precise.. I want to be able to do something which keeps me entertained. Thankfully I have a character who can actually join in on most of the entertaining aspects of the server(At least seen from my perspective)..
I would say that choosing a diety in general will limit you no matter how you put it. However it wont stop you from creating a different character to have the kind of fun you want to have, so I wouldn't really put the diety system down as a bad thing, rather just one which adds flavor to your character and might put some restrictions on that character alone.

Quote:

Of course, we all want quests.. Again entertainment value and so forth...
What I could wish for though would be smaller in audience and bigger in character work for the individual character. Far too often the quest boils down to the same PC's taking the lead and the rest of the party just being there for the ride and the xp.
Sadly the amount of GM's and the time they can dedicate to nwn is too small for this and I believe that the situation we have now is a compromise between having quests open to a broader audience and having the quests themselves run by few characters.

Depends on which kind of GM involvement you are asking about.. I am choosing to view this from the deity discussion and the reply will not address my feelings about this subject in general.

I would actually like a lot more GM involvement in the deity system as we have it now. One of the biggest problem many faiths face are that their followers and especially their divinely inspired characters can't really do anything that their faith dictates them to do, there are some examples of faiths who can though;

1) Toranites, hey go out slay evil, sadly evil respawns but hey then you can just slay evil again another day

2) Doranites, craft-craft-craft, pretty easy

3) Lucindites, with the new inclusion of wild and no magic areas spawning around the world they can actually go out and help their lady. However some of the newer additions to the faith like the pit stalkers are clearly only intended for the MMO and have no real purpose unless a GM picks it up, same goes for dragonlinks really... However no one that I know of are part of those organizations save NPC's so I figure that is alright.

The faiths which has real problems with doing anything would be.

1) Az'attans, really it feels like beating a dead horse.. But what can these people to exactly besides RP? They can tell people not to kill and to try to redeem from now and till the world of Layonara is consumed by the dragon cult and still get nowhere because the only chance of doing an act of redeemption/pacifism are GM encounters. The can preach however I guess that counts...

2) Shindy people, protect the oceans? Uhh.. How, we can't even travel in the oceans so they are sort of limited to waging a neverending war on the Mist people, and besides the PC's they encounter that too is limited to GM interactions. I would judge this as sort of the situation the Lucindites faced before the wild/no magic area mechanics were introduced

3) Prunilla, again preaching sure just keep doing that... But farming? Since the farming system was dropped in favor of the MMO(Not complaining about this decision just stating the fact), they are pretty much limited to preaching as well.

While preaching priests aren't a bad thing, since that is part of being a priest in the first place, it certainly is a bad thing if it is what the priest is limited to do. Especially especially if they can't gain levels through normal means, and here I mean combat and purely combat the only reliable source of xp. There are those who will probably argue here that RP will mend all this and that levels doesn't matter.
Then... I would like to reply with one of my strongests standpoints, levels -should- matter, and that is matter more than RP... Sure I can accept that a level 5 could do what a level 10 could through good RP or to drive a quest forward, fair enough. But when you start justifying the level 5 cleric being as influential as the level 40 cleric then there is something clearly wrong in the logic.
Levels are the only clear way of measuring the magnitude of a character short of very, with the emphasis on VERY, strict guidelines for how this works. The guidelines and reasonings should either be obvious, ex. person of neutral or below deity relation goes into temple of deity X and asks for help being refused said help, or explained very carefully and made available to all who would like to know why.
Usually this is the norm but of course it is very tedious to keep track of all this and even more when your average clergy as defined by LORE doesn't really have any ranks besides some very high ones being occupied by NPC's.
I know that I probably wasn't the most prominent speaker for the ranking system the lucindite church used the have, and we shouldn't really dwell in the past because we have the new deity write-ups which are wonderful in their own right..
But the advantage this system could have had was that there was a clear defined place in the church, there could be a feeling of progression where the PC would slowly move towards a move influential post in the hierarchy. However the problem was that the GM focus on this field was too little and it ended up pretty much like the situation is now, PC's at the bottom, rock bottom of all churches and nothing else except the rare epic.

The problem I feel there is really boils down to two decisions which I as a player think has been made:

1) Focus the GM's on running quests for everyone since the GMs are busy people and we would like as much focus on the player base as a whole as opposed to fragments of the player base

2) The consequence of this is that focus is largely removed from the churches and deities, making them too preachy for my taste.

I might start being redundant here but again, this focus makes it so that the churches and deities are less alive compared to what I would like. I must admit here that I am a huge fan of rather interventionist deities who actually matter to their followers.
Surely the priest is expected to have the deity matter to him, but there is no signs from either church or deity towards the individual PC save CDQ's and I believe that this is indeed a poor way to handle those relationships.
But again this is a choice from the GM team and they have their reasons for this and I will not argue that there might be things speaking against this approach, but I will still say that I would like if things were more like this and less like they are today.

Sure, as long as there are a measure of usefulness for the individual player and not just for the benefit of saying that there is flavor but the flavor is only there for what you want to preach and not what you are part of.

Uhmmm... May I point out that it is actually what is happening now, except that certain domain/equipment combos are unavailable due to deity restrictions? This is very bluntly put but it is part of the reality that I see on the servers on a day to day basis. I mean no offence in this, I believe that the most important thing is that the players feel content with the experience offered and given that no one seems to complain about this I guess that people are.

My argument should pretty well state that I don't believe that the world is living and breathing, rather it is an arena now outside GM quests. Surely there are some RP-isles out there but they are far in-between and rather closed. This of course doesn't include the RP that people do while wacking monsters which is thankfully not absent on layonara...

I know that the general picture this post reflects of layonara is rather bad. However I keep coming back because I like the world and the people who play. But I do believe that there are some illusions among some people of how the day to day experience of layonara is these days, and hopefully this post will inspire some thought about the way the world works and how you would like it to work to enhancing your experience here

[Dorganath]

Moved from the prior thread

Originally Posted by Pseudonym

I want less loaded questions!

Anyways ... is lore really so fragile that an idea or path such as Honora has evidently spent much time pondering prior to submission likely to do ... what's the word? .. 'damage' anything? Will lore explode if there is a Priest(ess) of Shindaleria who thinks the ebb and flow of Shindaleria is an OK fit for a martial artist? I'd have thought such a concept to be a nice fit for some of the softer impact and deflection based martial arts?

It appears, especially of late, that lore integrity and uber-strict adherence to such is of paramount importance over and above a flexibility that used to exist to facilitate player's fun.

Maybe I am missing something but I can't see the incredible 'drama' a more lenient approach to submissions like Honoras might have - even if they differ from Ed's own existing ideas. I thought that was the decision not long ago when there was the decision made to ease up on the rules and increase the fun factor? Is this really so very different? Sure, some things will always be plain ridiculous and not make sense ... but if someone's idea is justifiable, debatable, reasoned, even if only remotely possible at the edges of established parameters ... then *shrugs* there will always be outliers that don't need to substantially affect the integrity of the 'norm'.

My thoughts for early Saturday morning.

If this post belongs in another thread, feel free to move.

[Dorganath]

Moved from prior thread

Originally Posted by SteveMaurer

Oooo, this thead has gotten interesting! So, it's time for me to weigh in.

OK, I'll will be 100% frank. But I also must say that this is the first time in literally 25 years where I've been put in the position of being a player, rather than being asked to be the GM, and I really can't thank you enough for that experience.

Yes. You have far too many rules. The solution is not, however, to make them undocumented, enforced subjectively, constantly in flux, and nebulous. I have noticed that the first way many rules get articulated in Layonara, is when the GM team decides that a PC is subject to some form of sanction (or disallow a long-planned progression), and the player ends up posting here on the forums asking what the heck this new unwritten rule, that just blindsided their PC, is.

That's what kicked off this thread, for instance. A new rule about Shindaleria that completely threw the player for a loop. And it's not good.

I must also point out that the GM team's response is also a tad diappointing. Rather than admit having changed a rule, or perhaps work it into the history of the world as an in-game change, there is this strong tendency to pretend that the just-made-up-rule was always that way, even though it clearly wasn't. And this is usually justified by a strained appeal to "common sense", even though it isn't. (And as if "common sense" is a classic hallmark of religions, which it's not.)

I find this behavior especially confusing, because I believe it is your right to change things arbirarily as you see fit. So I don't see why rule changes, and continued world definition is so embarassing, that you feel emotionally compelled not to just acknowledge it.

NOTE: I purposefully snipped out a bit here, as it belongs as part of the prior discussion more than this one, and it bears comment, to which I am refraining in this thread. Apologies for any confusion this may cause. -- Dorganath


What I think needs to happen is for you to acknowledge when you make changes, give some serious compensation to PCs who are affected (offering complete rebuilds, or special-case exceptions, for starters), and take a humble approach to issues surrounding different interpretations of what is written down. Here is a basic rule of thumb: when one person misreads something in lore, that might be their mistake - when two, three, or more people do, it's clearly yours.

I would also like for Layonaran GMs to be given their own little areas inside the world that they can play with, rather than constantly having to ask permission to do anything. Part of the reason why there is so much focus on the bashy, rather than the RP, even in the quests, is that RP requires world definition that GMs presently do not have permission to do. If every little question has to be funneled through Ed, and/or Leanthar, for an answer, you don't get much world definition. If your GMs live in fear of a PM from Ed, you don't get much exploration of tangential plot lines.

[Honora]

The NWN Layo is very restrictive in character creation. What we seem to reward and encourage are basic classes played by the "big four"; human, elf, dwarf, halfling. Read through the character submissions and that's clear. And my point in another thread stands: in part because of this, we grow very slowly and have become rather alt-dependent to keep things fresh. And those alts are often much more challenging concepts, to keep the game interesting for people who have been here for years.

I understand that this is in part to maintain the high standard of roleplay that we expect. But what happens when we apply this to the MMO? And how much are we hurting ourselves now, when this game is going to be important to seed the new game with experienced Layonara players?

Mechanically and realistically, NWN Layo is a killing game. That's the experience that gives players that little rush of dopamine when they advance; that's what fuels the time between quests. All of this has been discussed to death but it's still true; certain gods are over-represented because of the limits on the game and the difficulties of RPing pacifisim. I would wager the same of certain classes, although I have no data on that.

I'm not sure there is a workable solution, but I have one to suggest. Rather than focus on eye candy in any updates (should there be any), I think adding a slew of lower-level quests that can be done without killing a requirement would be good. Temple quests for Az'atta, Shindy, Aeridin, etc, that folks who have a god in their deity field can do. Quests for 1-10 that involve travel, discovery - the flags were an awesome idea but require a group (or good sneak skills) for most people who would benefit. Some soloable material that does not emphasize killing.

Example: Az'atta temple in Audiria needs materials from Lan's Port. Lan's Port contact needs a crafted item before he can release the materials. Or a postage quest done. Or for someone to use a subduing widgit (to avoid killing) on someone. Sub-quest completed, materials released, Az'attan trots back to temple, experience and perhaps a minor reward item are dispensed.

My 1.75 True (adjusted for inflation).

[Nehetsrev]

Expanding on Honora's non-combative type quests, here are some ideas that might not be too hard to implement:

• Reward stealthy individuals with some XP for passing through an area undetected. The scripting for this might work by setting a Detection State variable and Entry Point variable on the PC as they enter the area, then as they move through the area if they're detected the variable gets changed, if not it remains un-changed, then if it's still unchanged when they reach a transition another check confirms the entry point variable doesn't match the exit point value and rewards XP.
• XP gain from disabling traps without triggering them.
• XP for by-passing a guard-post by bluffing?
• Placement in different towns of 'convertable' NPC's for PC clerics/paladins to roll persuade/charisma checks against to gain XP for converting them to their own faith. The DC to convert one of these NPCs might even increase each time they've been converted by another PC, and thus become more rewarding (until a server reset that would start things over). This would, in my opinion, even promote better RP of clerics/paladins who work to convert other PC's and NPC's on DM-run quests to their own faith. By rewarding the mindset and actions outside of such situations I think it would encourage players to extend it into the rest of their RP.
• As Honora mentioned, but perhaps a bit more detailed idea here, randomized on-going postal delivery to NPC's all over the world.

Anyhow, just a few ideas for non-combative XP gain that could be implemented if someone takes the time to code them (I'd write the code, but NWN's coding system eludes my understanding).

[Skywatcher]

This may seem obvious but what I want out of Layonara and I think many agree with me is entertainment. Now that means different things to different people. To some it means levelling and getting more powerful to meet bigger challenges. To some the story is main thing. To some it's the relationships and character development that comes through RP. The problem is that it's not possible to please everyone and you will fail ifyou try. I think personally I get a bit of entertainment from each of these and although it's not easy a balance of these three would be the ideal. I have played a few MMORPGs and I think each one has it's strengths and weaknesses. I don't think there is a perfect game out there and I would say that Layo is great for story and relationships and a bit weak on the levelling and maintaining challenge. World of Warcraft is the best at maintaining the challenge level but the worst in terms of RP and Story. My biggest suggestion for the MMO would be to provide a more continuous challenge spectrum and include as many ways as possible other than just killing stuff to advance in capability, in both combat and non-combat skills, while maintaining the high RP and story standards.

[Erik K]

what I want out of Layo? more of what hooked me in the first place. When I came here, we were in Hlint, great place with lots of RP. Whether it was debates on the benches or casual chat on the Greens in front of the Bank, there was a lot of fun RP and it was fantastic. At the same time, you had a center of the world, we all came there to craft or whatever and you knew everyone. Because there was a central place to meet and Hlint drew us all there, you had true casual encounters and parties formed with new people all the time. Since then, it seems like the player base has fragmented and is spread all over the server and casually meeting someone is more engineered that casual.
I also think the strict interpretation of rules is bogging things down and putting RP in a strait jacket, effectively creating cookie cutter characters. Its one thing to have guidlines and Im good with that. Ive played on servers with out them and none have the depth of RP that Layo does. But at this point, it seems like they are getting too well defined and its hard to be creative with a character. When I first came here, I played an Az'attan and loved it, because it allowed a lot of freedom to RP and interract. Now it just feels frustrating. In the real world, most if not all faiths accept a significant amount of diversity, why cant Layo offer the same?
As Skywatcher pointed out, there can be no perfect serverand he is right, people are too diverse. But isnt Layo big enough to accomidate more variety? We all bring something to the table and add flavour to the world.

[Dezza]

What do I want? hmmm good question. People aren't going to like to hear some of this.

1/ Significantly Less Xp for epic level characters from creature kills, imo this has detracted from WL's since every other person has an epic level char these days without too much effort.

2/ The XP jump at level 20-21 doubled and the current XP jump at level 20 placed at level 30-31.

3/ Double or even triple hourly XP for WL's who attend quests. Give them the importance they have earn't and the incentive to be out there amongst the player populations.

4/ Less stringent approvals for new first time character submissions for a faster turnaround to get them into the world to see first hand how it works. Almost always the first character you make on layo is a test run. Lets acknowledge that.

5/ More in game repurcussions for players who willingly take a diety in their diety field but only pay the diety lip service. I personally am sick to death of paladins and clerics who do and say nothing about their gods. Layonara provides a rich pantheon full of diversity and careful consideration (although we are missing a LE god) its one of the main reasons I play here. It irks me considerably when people say why bother with the gods they dont care about the characters really. Thats not the point!

6/ NWN is a combat based MECHANICAL system. It is a platform for Layonara! It is NOT Layonara. People have forgotten that. This world was/ IS an RP based world utilising the NWN mechanical system. People can't seem to get that into their heads. If you want a nwn COMBAT world go find a hack and slash server to play on and satisfy your needs there stop trying to make this world into what it isnt.

7/ Some appreciation! I have heard it time and time again over the years "this world is not like anywhere else I've played, this world is so rich, this world has so much development, this world has so much to learn about it" and then you hear all the complaints about everything that actually makes this world what it is! Its the old case of damned if you do and damned if you dont! It is what it is, yes it takes a bit of EFFORT to play here, it takes a bit of APPRECIATION to understand the sheer volume of time and effort put into it so that you can have a UNIQUE experience. I said UNIQUE not HACK AND SLASH experience. I dont think there are many people here who realise how much GM's give up when they agree to become a GM or a CA or a project writer or a MMO designer or whatever. We are held to the highest scrutiny in case of the dreaded old 'favouritism' card that people like to play when they feel hard done by with a decision thats made. So much so that anything we want to achieve with our own characters almost becomes too hard to even contemplate. A lot of people have asked me why haven't I applied for WL with Sasha and I can tell you its simply because being a GM I feel that the deck is stacked so high against me before I even begin that I can't bring myself to make that leap. We have the OPPORTUNITY to play in a world that was created for RP only, a meeting place for a group of PNP gamers interested in the world that could be created in cyberspace where they could bring their characters to life. Layonara is a pnp world brought to life and modified and expanded for YOUR enjoyment and many want to remove all the boundries and almost to some extent do what they like. Make no mistake this world requires EFFORT to play and enjoy it here it's not the walk in the park some seem to think it should be.

8/ I want to see MORE WL applications, I want to see more effort put into character identities by players.

9/ I want to see more effort put into RPing diety relations

10/ I want to see so much more from the player base not just from a few individuals whose RP and interactions significantly stand out in a group of people.

11/ I want to see characters holding ranks, titles, positions of honour etc throughout the world. It used to be like that but over time this has flopped and thats perhaps a symptom of GM's fearing to give anyone anything for fear of upsetting Lore but its not impossible to do and GM's need to realise that.

12/ Less reliance on the mechanical limitations of NWN and more reliance by players on going with the flow and fun of a situation that can be handled by a GM. EG: PLayers kill everything in the Great Forest down to the bears and boars. A powerful Druid is dispatched to deal with the intruders. She stops them and speaks with them angrily at what happened. Half the PC's are sorry and agree to move onto somewhere else. One other is rude and argumentative, everyone else stands back and says nothing! The Druid immobilizes the trouble maker wondering whats happening to people in the world. The others wander off and the Druid approaches the trouble maker and tries to explain what she's doing there, how the natural order of the forest must be balanced not unbalanced. The trouble maker argues ooc that according to nwn she could have done this and that and the druid would not have immobilised her etc rather than going with it and having some real developmental Rp with the character. Both parties walk away unsatisfied both in and ooc because one tried to use ONLY apply nwn mechanical limitations and one tried to make for a richer and more interesting experience outside the realms of mecahnical limitations.
Another eg: Character is designing new clothes in the Crafting hall and a rat enters and starts chewing on the fabric 'left on the floor'. Instead of a positive and fun RP experience that may have developed the GM is abused significantly for interrupting someones time. That nwn mechanical system would not have allowed a rat to appear in the place so its out of place and uncalled for. Do you see what I am getting at?
For example: Character's both summon creatures to compare while standing on the docks in Port Hempstead. GM states 'people start running everywhere in fear at the sudden appearance of the creatures, guards cordon off the dock and send for reinforcements. One Captain nervously calls out "banish those creatures, this is not the place for them." The Characters abuse GM for interrupting them and that they were only comparing their summons and that who cares where they do it there is no one around, you cant see them, only the captains. Gm tries to explain that while you cant see them doesnt mean they arent their. GM is told they are stupid and to stop interrupting their fun. Im sorry but HELLO! Where are you from? Why are you even bothering to play in this world for???

13/ The Mayan lucky number is last (13). I want to see more players RP while they adventure. I've followed a number of groups as a GMand if I dont have time to run an impormptu I'll just watch them. I REWARD RP. Often I have to log off disappointed that I could not give them a reward bonus because they simply did not RP. Dont do it once and walk away disappointed cause you got nothing! Thats not the idea. Do it all the time and you will get rewarded! It wont happen overnight but it will happen! and guess what! You might even enjoy the whole experience even more! Now wouldn't that be something!

14/ erm...no I said 13 was the last one so I'll leave it there!

Sorry couldn't help myself! Signposts! telling you what Kingdom you are in on each screen.

[Pseudonym]

Originally Posted by Dezza

11/ I want to see characters holding ranks, titles, positions of honour etc throughout the world. It used to be like that but over time this has flopped and thats perhaps a symptom of GM's fearing to give anyone anything for fear of upsetting Lore but its not impossible to do and GM's need to realise that.

This can be player initiated - we can make this happen through our guilds and common-goal/deity sub-communities but it really doesn't come alive until it is recognized and supported by GMs. I asked (here and here) GMs to please feel free to incorporate the Guild that Ark began into any plots or quest arcs they had brewing on 27th Feb 2008. In the 20 months since that request .... nada. Not a single PM.

More support and encouragement and reward and recognition for player initiatives.

Edit: Dezza - please note this!! Ggggrrrrrrr.

[jrizz]

Originally Posted by Dezza

1/ Significantly Less Xp for epic level characters from creature kills, imo this has detracted from WL's since every other person has an epic level char these days without too much effort.

2/ The XP jump at level 20-21 doubled and the current XP jump at level 20 placed at level 30-31.

@Dezza, Are these two items just to deal with the handfull of grinders we have? Cause if it were any harder to level, 90% of us would have no upward movment at all. Doubling the XP jump during the 20 to 21 "green mile" would just securly doom all non-WLs to perma-death.

[Pseudonym]

Originally Posted by jrizz

@Dezza, Are these two items just to deal with the handfull of grinders we have? Cause if it were any harder to level, 90% of us would have no upward movment at all. Doubling the XP jump during the 20 to 21 "green mile" would just securly doom all non-WLs to perma-death.

The counter-argument being it might encourage those otherwise condemned to perma-death during the Green Mile to do something of significance during levels 1-19 such that they would feel comfortable applying for World Leader when they hit 20?

As Dorg stated, I know this is not a debate thread - but that thought occurred to me as I was pondering jrizz's post.

[blonde]

I agree with most of what have been said already, but I will try a few of my own as well.

1) I want more avenues for progression for characters to pursue besides new levels and crafting. Titles, positions within hierarchies, success for your home kingdom (through conquest, defense, trade, diplomacy, etc). Everyone wants a place in the world.

2) I want more players on the servers. This is the easiest and most direct route to making the world come alive.

3) I want to embrace the new players. New blood will keep the server fresh and alive. I hate to see a new player be stuck in character approval for 3 weeks and then give up and leave us, never even having seen the server. (Sorry CA team, a ton of respect for your amazing work, not so much for the current strict process). When I started here I was such a noob, both with nwn and Layo lore. I learned from playing and RP'ing with others, and still do

4) I want characters to be defined by the person as opposed to the class. Make the class requirements (not the mechanical ones) more bendy, and allow the player a chance to fit his/her character's personality into the class.

5) I want it to be easier to meet other characters. A looking for group list? It's a big world today, and often with few players. 4 years ago the world center was Hlint and the max level was 20 (except for a rare few). This led to a much higher concentration of like-level characters in the same areas. Lifting of the level split rule was a big step in the right direction!

6) Lastly I want there to be room for all player types. Even the loner who prefers to solo and keep to himself enhances the server in his own way.

[Kirbiana]

Speaking as a player who no longer spends as much time as I once did on Layo, I thought it might be helpful to share the one thing I would have liked to see inform both the rulings of the LORE team and the behavior of my fellow role players during my time here:

Please don't make other people's characters into caricatures.

We the players are asked to commit ourselves to creating and inhabiting a believable character for others to interact with. We are given the rules of the world's religions, politics, and races and then with the guidance of the CA team, we create a character that we find entertaining to play and that fits into the world of Layonara.

However, it is much LESS entertaining when your chosen role gets pushed to a cartoonish extreme either by the way that fellow players presumptively treat you (paladin = prig, rogue = scum, dwarf = drunk, etc) or by the role-playing rules that seem to inexorably tighten around certain religions, classes or races as time goes on. An abiding respect for the circle of life on the part of Aeridinites, for example, gives players the leeway to create interesting characters ranging from committed healers to committed slayers of evil. When that rule got tightened down (as it did during my time here) to 'don't kill anything at all, no matter whether it's the most evil monster in the world', then my interest in my main character (and in Layonara overall) pretty much drained away. It just wasn't fun to role-play such an extreme caricature of non-violence.

I remember long ago, someone asked on the forums, "Where have all the good characters gone?" If you look around, I think you'll notice that many of the best RP-ers on the server have gravitated toward a neutral and deity-free existence. I could be wrong, but I suspect that's because role-playing those kind of characters means they don't have to inhabit a strait-jacket of expectations on the part of their fellow players and of the team.

I hope this viewpoint from a mostly-retired player is helpful, Dorg. I'm really impressed by the commitment you've shown in this thread to getting the balance between rules and fun just right. Thank you for reading.

[Masterjack]

Personally I kind of like things the way they are. The one thing I would like to add is that I prefer to have an RP reason to go exploring. I cringe at the thought of bashing my way through the same area over and over again just to gain levels. So I can do it all over again in a harder area? Some like that but I do not.

Now if I had a reason to try and exterminate the Redlight Goblins, Giants on Dregar or the inhabitants of the Misted Village things might be different. One of my characters has a reason to protect the Misted village. All I know is that they are Goblins, Giants and Rogues. Nothing has been mentioned anywhere (outside of Quests) on what bad they may have done to deserve such actions.

[lonnarin]

I want the rules, submission standards and allowable character/dogma/deity/weapons mandates trimmed back to where they were about 4 and a half years ago. Since then the red tape that started as a single string has snowballed up into one big tangled ball of frustration and character refusals. Fantasy realms depend and rely on imagination not only of the creators, but the players. Please relent in the 3rd degree inspections of every little thing in a character's bio, advancement path and belief system and let the players play the game with a minimum of restrictions. Dogmas should be a guiding light, not a bell jar. There should be ample room for various sects of the same faith to coexist.

[Masterjack]

Originally Posted by lonnarin

I want the rules, submission standards and allowable character/dogma/deity/weapons mandates trimmed back to where they were about 4 and a half years ago. Since then the red tape that started as a single string has snowballed up into one big tangled ball of frustration and character refusals. Fantasy realms depend and rely on imagination not only of the creators, but the players. Please relent in the 3rd degree inspections of every little thing in a character's bio, advancement path and belief system and let the players play the game with a minimum of restrictions. Dogmas should be a guiding light, not a bell jar. There should be ample room for various sects of the same faith to coexist.

Let me to start off saying that I did not do that well in High school English. I like the way the character submissions process is, it helps me flesh out my character more and bring it to life. It may take me a while to get it approved but in the end I'm happy with the result.

Let me expand on this. My first character Beli Tenker was made with a basic background and was to be a Monk in the Brother's of Battle. If I was told at submission what was to be expected of him I might have changed my submission. It was not till level 7 that I found out what he needed to become a Brother of Battle. I found out at level 21 that the monastery was not connected to the Vorax church. Now I have a level 22 monk I do not know what to do with RP wise.

I have to agree those that are new need a quick way to experience the game. I think the character vault does this well.

[Acacea]

I agree on the less loaded questions. "Do you want it our way... or the way of EVIL!" leaves quite a lot in between

YAILWAP

There are a lot of things I think would help. I agree, low leveled quests. Actually, some high level quests as well - Like MJ (sorry!) said, giving reasons to explore and snapshots of what a place is supposed to be like. Always good. There are pros and cons to non fedex quests, I know. But then, those take development time to a server that frankly should be grateful for whatever scraps of updates we can get. Even volunteering to do it ourselves means that someone like Dorg needs to spend time checking and integrating. It might happen it might not.

Also for everyone to chill out a bit, that's good too.

But behind the whole list, what I really wish most to see is what is least likely to occur - I wish NWN would diverge from MMO lore.

What does that mean? First of all... take into account that as a player I absorb background information as well as I can. There are areas that I've come to know better than the GMs that created them, and other times where just the fact that I was asking so many irritating questions made for more information to be had there at all. As a CA I was more interested in inundating a new player with whatever information I could provide than judging their ability to play what they submitted. I also play a very information oriented character. All these things depend on the ability for the server to reflect its setting.

That said, if NWN is forced to be lock-in-step with the MMO it will (and does) stagnate, increasingly so over time. It doesn't take a druid to observe interesting things about the information released - such as that all the realm timelines shown end decades before the current year.

A few years ago, when the MMO was announced but not the setting, I almost begged for it to be set a couple centuries in the future - my reasoning was that it gives NWN a very good lead, plenty of time to live out its current plots whether or not they have RL time to be finished, and just as importantly, a good chunk of time for the current generations of characters to be gone with explanation. Set in some vague idea of the present, and a) if the MMO takes a long time, NWN will inevitably begin to outpace it unless NWN is shut down and b) all of the major and minor players in the present setting will simply be gone in the next stage. You may be a level ten or a WL in year 1434, have great influence or none, and if the MMO is also in 1434 you will be inexplicably gone. Why? We're not porting characters. Start from scratch is good and I strongly rooted for it... but give it a good amount of time.

I feel that we've outpaced the MMO already, and that it may well be a big explanation to some of the stagnation that is here. We are worried about making changes to something that occurred decades before. Rulers that were written for 1416, not 1470. Pseudo wondered, where are the WL mentions in the realm summaries? Well... good question? It's true there's more information elsewhere and yes, that most WLs aren't specifically involved in a particular realm, but how much room really is there in the world of text? You have to stamp it sometime, and the biggest draw of Layonara was the ability to impact and change it.

And that is what I would most like to see again. Please don't come back and talk about how changeable it still is... of course you can still do things, but there is a limit. Consider, for example - if some texts are already stamped finished, is your group or character really going to be appended to them? And even if so, would you not aspire to something other than a footnote? I wish upon a star that the GMs and players would get all the information that is available, and then be given the freedom to track mud all over it. Isn't part of the vision of layo to be a world setting? To imagine a Layo like FR, where DMs use it for all sorts of campaigns that diverge from the base setting? Where whole continents go up in smoke even though that is not what is Planned For The Main Game?

That is what I would like to see for the remainder of NWN, and I realize that it is a very controversial wish that is unlikely to speak for the entire playerbase. I wish for NWN to be merely a fond series of divergent campaigns in the world setting of Layonara... not tied to the MMO, nor held to standards they are not yet made aware of. Let both GMs and players dream big - make them start with all the things you plan as transparently as you can make it, but then let them shatter it to pieces with their successes and failures. There will then be no need to worry about how it affects MMO lore... you just ignore it if that is not where the next will begin. If you end up really really liking something, well - you get the best of both worlds, heh, because all the people writing and GMing have signed the papers - you can use both their content and their characters if you want. Pick and choose.

To some this will be sacrilege, but I have for some time very strongly believed that that is the best thing NWN could hope for. The MMO gets the benefit of only caring what happens in NWN when it's super important and desirable, and that people like Ed no longer have to spend so much time deciding what doesn't fit with the MMO or who didn't sign or did something happen that wasn't canon. NWN gets the benefit of the ceiling and timeline lifted off their heads, players and GMs alike, and the freedom to not worry about forgetting what part of their adventures are stamped and what not. Think about it - deities may die, rulers may be assassinated, and whether you make it into the text or not, you may, briefly, rule the world. Why not?

Let the players continue to take care of the server costs, be transparent about when it increases or when you need them in the future - perhaps setting a goal for another sets off a ponying-up drive - and let them then also use every bit of information you are willing to give them as a base point for their own adventures, not the ones you plan for them to have when you release the MMO. It is impossible to test-drive the main draws of the MMO with us - it is not mechanically feasible. Let us just run with your setting, instead.

((Yes that is a lot of acronyms.))

[Masterjack]

*points up* ya what she said..oh and MJ is ok to use

[Gulnyr]

Originally Posted by Dezza

3/ Double or even triple hourly XP for WL's who attend quests. Give them the importance they have earn't and the incentive to be out there amongst the player populations.

I am not convinced that XP is the main incentive for WLs. There are even a few WL characters who are already level 40, so XP is not an incentive at all there, really, right? Speaking for myself, Jennara is not level 40 yet, but is closing in on it in a hurry at the current XP reward level. I don't attend quests for the XP but for the story and interaction.

I'm also not convinced WLs aren't present and involved. The WL index lists twenty-one characters. Check out the list and you'll easily see two major categories and one important minor one. The first major category is absent characters, whose players are either absent from Layonara or busy on the MMO team. Lalaith and Plenarius are in that group, either never seen anymore or only rarely. The other major group is active characters, who are played by active players. Acacea, Storold, Connor. Arkolio fit here, too. The minor group is characters in a sort of flux, like Kobal. Harlas is here and very involved, but his involvement sometimes means he can't get his character into the game. Look at the group of active WLs. Are you going to get Fenrir to be around more by throwing more XP at him? (I don't mean to speak for you, s0ulz.) Look at the group of inactive WLs. Will increasing the payout make Rhizome show up more? Should it? I don't think so.

As to importance, I'm not sure how other WLs are handled. I only have my own experience of it. I'm actually pretty satisfied with the way Jennara is treated by DMs and their NPCs. It generally seems appropriate to the situation. I understand that Jennara's case may be easier to handle than some others, though, since there isn't anything particularly mysterious or esoteric about who she is or what she's done or where she fits.

Originally Posted by blonde

4) I want characters to be defined by the person as opposed to the class. Make the class requirements (not the mechanical ones) more bendy, and allow the player a chance to fit his/her character's personality into the class.

*nods* I have long felt that fluff text is more or less disposable and that a character should start as a concept and then be "built" into that concept by choosing the classes that best fit. Gulnyr the Grim was not a Rogue/Fighter but a tunnel scout who was best realized by a combination of Rogue and Fighter levels. Jennara is not a Monk but a very pious, drafted soldier who is best realized by the Monk class. The classes should bend to accommodate player imagination, though I am not opposed to specifically defining PrCs and giving them specific places in the world, e.g. the Purple Dragon Knight renamed the Knight of the Silver Shield, say, and associated only with a specific military training academy with its own traditions and oaths; if you want to have a Knight of the Silver Shield character, you have to attend the academy and accept their traditions and oaths (aka request and pass a CDQ).


Acacea says good things.

[G.Giant]

Hey, so I've been lurking around a little as I'm thinking of giving this server another shot... And this thread seems like a decent place for a new player to vent.

I really want to like Layonara, but the hurdle of getting started is HUGE. I can go to Arelith or FRC Cormyr with a new character concept and be up and running with a good group of quality RPers that afternoon. Not here, you have to wait for someone who obviously has other things to do to notice your submission, and then invariably there will be some minor changes requested that will delay you for days longer. I can absolutely guarantee you than many a great RPer has walked on by because of the bureaucracy.

My suggestion? Keep your character submissions, but if someone is playing a basic race and class let them jump right in. Meaning, let them submit and then create a character and get started right away. Work with them AS THEY'RE PLAYING to get the submission up to your Lore standards. If they want something off the beaten path (dark elves, etc.) of course keep the submission process as is; but if I want to play a human wizard please don't make me wait a week because I made a lore mistake. You have plenty of safeguards in place to protect the lore along the way (as well as other players and DMs to correct you.) Maybe a few will have to restart an occasional character, maybe you'll have to ban a (very) occasional bad apple, but that's okay.

I get why it's in place, and how things probably were a few years ago when this was a popular game, but I think the landscape is different today not that NWN is, like, 8 years old. Most new arrivals will be NWN veterans (they barely even sell this game in stores anymore, after all) and there will be far more good apples than bad. You need new players, you need veterans playing new characters. The other servers I mentioned, they're around all the time, and feel much, much more lively because of it.

I also think far too much "creative writing" is required as far as motivations and all that for even the most basic of characters. Role playing is about improvisation as much as preparation. Sometimes you don't realize your characters' motivations and personality quirks until you're in their skin for a while. I know I certainly don't. Some times you also realize you just aren't as into the character as you thought you would be (as in, realizing you just don't like playing bards or gnomes) and want a fresh start; again, that's by no means easy to do here.

Second.. I get the sense that this will be a great world especially when you get to go on DM quests, but the starting areas are absolutely unwelcoming to new players. In the main city the only appropriate quest (sewers) is somewhere no 1st level character will reasonably find on their own. The only real help is a captain who will give you a quest (the kobolds) that's absolute suicide for a low level. The crypts are a little easier to find in Vehl, but again you have no help from where you appear.

I get that you want to encourage experienced players to show the newbies around, but you can't rely on that, especially during off-peak hours. There just isn't a large enough playerbase right now, and it's kind of an unfair burden to place on established characters. From my experience I saw absolutely no traffic in Vehl when I was starting out to ask for help IC, I had one nice OOC offer for help but couldn't take it at the time, and when I tried to play again I asked some others OOC for help and they were friendly but too busy with their own thing to rush to wherever I was to show me around. I'm surprised I even stumbled upon the other city, frankly, as most of my explorations around the starting area led to quick death. Even a few more helpful NPCs to direct you would be nice. I know there's not much you can do at this point in the game to rearrange the maps or whatever, but I really wonder how much consideration was given to guiding the complete novice.

Just a random thought but since you have so few new chars, I almost think you should just start new characters at a viable level (like 5) where they won't die immediately if they try to explore, and/or increase the XP rate to help people quickly get to a level where they can join groups and take part in quests (that seems to be somewhere around level 9 or 10?)

I certainly don't think people should get free epic status but the XP barrier to slow people down in the early levels might just be too much at this point in the server's life. Four years ago it might have made sense to keep people at level 5 or 6 for a month, but then I'm assuming you had many other people of that level around to RP and bash stuff with, and there were many years ahead to take your time developing that character. Neither of those is the case now, and it seems like you're just forcing folks to grind solo though low-content, low level stuff for busywork's sake because that's what you're supposed to do.

That's just my impression; this place feels like an unwelcoming private club, and I hope you guys give some thought to lowering the barriers. That is, if new players is even something you actually want; I'm not entirely convinced it actually is.

Hope I didn't step on any toes here, and of course this is all purely one outsider's opinion just 'cause you asked. Kind of. And feel free to take it all with a grain of salt, I don't mean for it to sound as preachy as it does but that's what tends to happen with one-sided writing.

Thanks.

[jrizz]

Originally Posted by Honora

The NWN Layo is very restrictive in character creation. What we seem to reward and encourage are basic classes played by the "big four"; human, elf, dwarf, halfling. Read through the character submissions and that's clear. And my point in another thread stands: in part because of this, we grow very slowly and have become rather alt-dependent to keep things fresh. And those alts are often much more challenging concepts, to keep the game interesting for people who have been here for years.

Originally Posted by blonde

3) I want to embrace the new players. New blood will keep the server fresh and alive. I hate to see a new player be stuck in character approval for 3 weeks and then give up and leave us, never even having seen the server. (Sorry CA team, a ton of respect for your amazing work, not so much for the current strict process). When I started here I was such a noob, both with nwn and Layo lore. I learned from playing and RP'ing with others, and still do

Originally Posted by G.Giant

I really want to like Layonara, but the hurdle of getting started is HUGE. I can go to Arelith or FRC Cormyr with a new character concept and be up and running with a good group of quality RPers that afternoon. Not here, you have to wait for someone who obviously has other things to do to notice your submission, and then invariably there will be some minor changes requested that will delay you for days longer. I can absolutely guarantee you than many a great RPer has walked on by because of the bureaucracy.

I said this was going to be an issue to player base growth more then a year ago. Now it seems to be an issue. So I would really like to see the CA process lighten up, a lot.

[jrizz]

Originally Posted by blonde

5) I want it to be easier to meet other characters. A looking for group list? It's a big world today, and often with few players. 4 years ago the world center was Hlint and the max level was 20 (except for a rare few). This led to a much higher concentration of like-level characters in the same areas. Lifting of the level split rule was a big step in the right direction!

This is such a key point and even more so when you have a big world with a small player base. How do you find other players? Simple, I would like the server status page to show where players are. Why does that have to be top secret information?

[jrizz]

Originally Posted by Pseudonym

The counter-argument being it might encourage those otherwise condemned to perma-death during the Green Mile to do something of significance during levels 1-19 such that they would feel comfortable applying for World Leader when they hit 20?

As Dorg stated, I know this is not a debate thread - but that thought occurred to me as I was pondering jrizz's post.

I would like to see WLs be truly special and held to extremly high standards. Of course part of this means that not every PC should have to be a WL in order to progress.

[blonde]

Originally Posted by Gulnyr

Acacea says good things.

She sure says ALOT of things, once in a while she is bound to hit a good one! Kidding! I liked it all.

Thought of one more thing though. I want openness and transparency and willingness to change and listen to the player base. So a big thanks to Dorg for opening the floodgates here. Lots of good things have been said in this thread I think.

[EdTheKet]

Originally Posted by Dorg

I do not plan to comment on anything said in this thread until it has run its course, and then only maybe. The primary reason is time, but also to give you all a chance to speak without my influence.

I can echo Dorg, but I can say already that many an interesting suggestion has been made already.

[cbnicholson]

Entertainment, a good story, more players really feeling the characters.

More opportunities for non combat XP!

I have other wants, but they sound more like rants when I type them out so I'll leave off there.

[ShiffDrgnhrt]

I also agree with the idea that Characters should not be defined by their Classes, despite the fact that some characters are based on the "Class" they Have. (Paladins come to mind). Having a Character that is a 5/8/7 Rogue/Fighter/WeaponMaster Split, one might not think that those 5 rogue levels have anything to do with the Character, but anyone who knows Tyra knows that she is slowly becoming a Ninja/Assassin type, despite her handicap of only have 5 "rogue" levels. I Agree with how someone put it (I can't reference who atm) said that class descriptions should not be what define a character, especially since we are stuck in a class-based engine, when we are moving toward are open skill based engine.

I also believe that WLs should be allowed to continue with aspirations prior to their WL. Unless you become a God, I think anyone should be able to keep going after ambitions, even should those ambitions conflict with whatever their WLDQ put them (e.wx Angela's new ambition conflict with being the Diet of Lor or perhaps with whoever Angela answers to/works with).

What else... IF you guys, as the Developers, could somehow give the players SOME chance at creating unique or inventive "items" for players to use. I don't know what can be considered unique or inventive. However, much like DMs offer up time to get Characters in costume for parties, or offer to enscribe things on items, perhaps offer some time to be various "specialty" merchants, selling things that players my want an existing "item" to represent it. Maybe things like a grappling hook, a whetstone, religious iconography, kingdom iconography... I donno... Just a thought

[Pen N Popper]

I'd love to see a way to encourage two to six hour per week players to play. Something to think about for the MMO perhaps but could be tested and refined here. (Yes, same old PnP wishing for a time-based leveling system.) Can I buy my way up?

You may think what I'm suggesting is violating some blood oath of RP. Keep an open mind instead and look around at today's gaming world. Lots of fun and profit to be had out there. Find a way to embrace the masses and encourage the core.

Social Games: How The Big Three Make Millions

You have the creativity to make it happen.

[SteveMaurer]

Here are a few other things that I think would help Layonara...

Reduce power-gaming incentives:

• Remove map level restrictions. Despite all the complaints about power-gaming, the world is set up to reward high level PCs. Right now, only a single one of my characters can even enter an Advanced Crafting Hall, for instance. And I have a terrible time trying to figure out what the RP justification for this is. - was told this was already done
• Revisit, and lower, many item level restrictions. Again, this focuses all the rewards to high level PCs. If you win a RP contest, you can't even take the best item unless you're willing to put off using it until you've power-leveled. Similarly, a lot of armor is effectively unusable because the level restrictions prevent it from being used until the PC is facing monsters that bypass it. A LR 22 item with a DR 5/+3 is silly, for instance. Actually, any items that requires you to be "epic" seems odd - how many epic characters are there?
• Allow Epic CDQs again - meaning CDQs whose intent is to change the world, but do not necessarily have WL status attached to them. Allow any PC to attempt such a quest before level 20. Otherwise, the incentive is power leveling.
• Change the out of game alignment restrictions to be based on playing hours, and not levels. "You must have a level X PC to have a CN PC" should be "You must have played for 20+ hours and gone on 3 GM quests", or something equivalent.
• Questing XP bonuses should not be strictly percentage based on the level of the PC, but graduated.
• Try to have at least one major plot line that doesn't have combat as its core focus. When you have to be a legendary combat caster or fighter to be involved in any major component of the Dragon Storm plot, it will lead to people desiring to level quickly.

Reduce bureaucracy:

• Make the alignment system reactive. Players shouldn't have to "apply" for an alignment. A GM who sees a particularly consistent roleplaying of a different alignment should be able to nudge the alignment meter.
• The above said, tell GMs to assume that most players are playing the alignment they signed up for, the way they see that alignment. Even "good" people have a bad day, even "evil" people may to something ostentatiously nice (especially in the presence of others, or the authorities). When a problem does happen, GMs should PM the player asking their reasoning first, and asking if they're looking for a change. Disputes would likely be rare.
• Rather than funneling the world definition all through Ed, he should delegate some aspects off to GMs, so that answers don't get held up for so long.
• Explicitly reserve the right to "redo", so that a quick decision can be given. The answer to a PC with some small, undiscussed, world definition in their bio should be "You are Conditionally Approved (we may have to tweak the background a bit)". Same thing for letting GMs try a new thing. Players are more forgiving of an 'oops' than you may think; certainly more than constant team delay.

World definition:

• The proper answer to a world question, from the team, should never be "I don't know". That seems especially odd coming from Ed. If you don't know, who does? Just make something up!
• World definition should be focused, not on obscure kingdoms in the middle of nowhere (which would be better left as some GM's playground anyway), but on places the PCs regularly frequent. The Lore has more explanaton of the politics and leadership of the Sun Kingdom than it does Port Hempstead or Fort Vehl! Why, if it's (reputably) illegal to use poison in Port Hempstead, is there a poison crafting station?
• For the love of all creation, please change CNR to be plausible. My sense of disbelief is entirely destroyed reading advertisements for boxes of chicken eggs listed in the thousands of gold pieces. How about cockatrice eggs instead? Instead of Yew, how about Magewood? (etc.)
• Focus in the world description more on things of dramatic interest, that would allow your GMs to create plots. Less on travellogue style descriptions.
• Make the world less "cartoony", especially in regards to deities. Other people have written more eloquently about this than I, but it is something to do.

General Gaming Style:

• Try to base decisions with the general idea that players already buy into Layonara as a roleplaying server, and that you do not have to act as a munchkin police. You make a lot of problems for yourself trying to prevent problems that are actually very small.
• Consider carrots rather than sticks in terms of RPing. Don't be afraid to be unfair in terms of wanding out XP. The PC who solved the puzzle, the one who came up with the idea that saved the party... those people should be rewarded above and beyond the normal XP bonus.
• In a similar light, understand that some players simply enjoy taking on combat challenges, and they are not at fault that NwN (through implementing DnD) gives disproportionate rewards for doing so. But rather than get mad at the players, simply tilt things in the opposite direction (*).
• Encourage GMs to run many smaller impromptu quests rather than massive server-crashing fests, where players can literally wait 10 minutes between a response, and the GM can't even read the chat log it's going by so fast. I think those drive people away from being a GM anyway.
• Focus on making GMing fun. Seriously, for the player base you have, you really need more GMs. This is the main reason there isn't as much RPing going on. People get bored, so they go crafting or bashing.

(*) In my own PnP game, of a game system of my own design, XP for "work experience" in a particular skill is limited, but you can use money to "buy training" (i.e. go to school, which also gives you XP). There is absolutely nothing that would prevent Layonara from cutting combat XP down, but having "schools" that let players trade Gold for XP.

[Gulnyr]

Originally Posted by SteveMaurer

Allow Epic CDQs again - meaning CDQs whose intent is to change the world, but do not necessarily have WL status attached to them. Allow any PC to attempt such a quest before level 20. Otherwise, the incentive is power leveling.

I'm not opposed, but there might be some misconception behind this one. The current WLDQs aren't necessarily about changing the world, normal CDQs can potentially lead to changes, changing the world doesn't require a CDQ at all, and "making a mark" to be eligible to become a WL doesn't necessarily have to involve making a change to the world. For example, nothing Jennara has done to change the world has been via CDQ. She's never had a personal CDQ, in fact, other than her WLDQ, which could have led to a world change had she failed, I guess, but basically just maintained the status quo by succeeding.

For the love of all creation, please change CNR to be plausible. My sense of disbelief is entirely destroyed reading advertisements for boxes of chicken eggs listed in the thousands of gold pieces. How about cockatrice eggs instead? Instead of Yew, how about Magewood? (etc.)

First, just for a different perspective. Second, the economy is completely broken. There is no mint anywhere; instead, money grows on monsters. It's insane. With an endless supply of gold coming in, there's bound to be inflation. Among adventurers, who can just waddle out and beat coins out of pretty much anything like Mario punching bricks, gold has little value, so cartloads for eggs (and everything else) isn't really all that unexpected.

It would be nice if that weren't so, though, yeah. Or if there were a market to visit for common supplies (like eggs), though I suppose that would change some sort of balance in the crafting department.

In a similar light, understand that some players simply enjoy taking on combat challenges, and they are not at fault that NwN (through implementing DnD) gives disproportionate rewards for doing so. But rather than get mad at the players, simply tilt things in the opposite direction (*).

(*) In my own PnP game, of a game system of my own design, XP for "work experience" in a particular skill is limited, but you can use money to "buy training" (i.e. go to school, which also gives you XP). There is absolutely nothing that would prevent Layonara from cutting combat XP down, but having "schools" that let players trade Gold for XP.

I'm a little confused. If bashing gives less XP, and if school gives a new source of XP, and if school costs True, and if True grows on monsters, what changes? Wouldn't the bashers just take their gathered True and buy from the school the XP they "lost," coming out the same at the end? Would this not just increase the incentive to bash for the True to buy the XP? I'm just not seeing how this lowers the reward for bashing or improves the chances at XP for those who don't bash in comparison. It does seem a nice gold sink on the face of it, but I doubt people who can buy XP are going to lower egg prices, heh.

[jrizz]

Here is what I want - Actual balance please. The power balance between casters and fighters is way off. I know this is going to unleash all kinds of replys about how it is not so, but when you have mages soloing around places that even the toughest fighters on the server would be mashed potato's if they tried even one spawn, something is off.

[SteveMaurer]

Originally Posted by Gulnyr

First, just for a different perspective. Second, the economy is completely broken. There is no mint anywhere; instead, money grows on monsters. It's insane.

I completely agree. Inflation happens when you have too much money chasing too few things of value. Deflation happens when you have too many things chasing too little money. As typically happens in long-running persistent worlds, Layonara has both of these trends. The market for durable craft goods is deflationary, because once crafted, a +1 Iron Greatsword never goes away. The market for CNR is inflationary, because there is a limited supply, and gold is almost worthless in comparison.

Presently to combat this, there are outside controls imposed that have no in-game justification: PCs are forbidden to "Mull", just give their old equipment away. And to artificially reduce demand, the level restrictions have been jacked through the roof so that a starting PC can't wield or wear 90% of the items in the game. The pawners are a clever in-game addition, but they have the out of game restriction of being constantly out of cash. And "donation centers" are the trash barrels for good PCs, but there is nothing equivalent for neutral or evil PCs.

But I do not like outside controls. You can make things work more naturally with in-game changes.

Originally Posted by Gulnyr

I'm a little confused. If bashing gives less XP, and if school gives a new source of XP, and if school costs True, and if True grows on monsters, what changes? Wouldn't the bashers just take their gathered True and buy from the school the XP they "lost," coming out the same at the end?

It provides an in-game fix for the inflationary issues above. When gold can be traded for XP, is suddenly starts to be valuable again - even for high level PCs.

Originally Posted by Gulnyr

I doubt people who can buy XP are going to lower egg prices, heh.

Economics says you are wrong. When the value of gold goes up, how much people are willing to trade it for (in terms of CNR) will go down.

But thank you for reminding me that I missed a suggestion for the other half of the equasion:

• Crafting should be changed so that each attempt has two rolls. The first is for gaining XP. If this roll is successful (and only if), a second roll should be made for getting the item. PCs can learn from failures, and it would reduce the massive overflow of items that leveling in crafting produces.

[miltonyorkcastle]

Reminder: Please do not debate the requests made in this thread. If you wish to debate a point or discuss a request, please do so outside this thread. This thread is for people to offer up changes they'd like to see, not to debate the merits of those desired changes.

Thanks and keep posting! There is a lot of good stuff in here!

[SteveMaurer]

• Rather than having overall max gold limits for pawners, pawners should simply have a maximum transaction value for anything they buy. Say: 50 gold for small market shops, 100 gold for large city shops. Not only would this eliminate the problem of some people crafting enchanted gems to make 10,000 gold in one quick sale (and rendering the shop uselessn for everyone else), it is actually realistic in the way pawn shops really work.

[jrizz]

One more request - I would like to see more mixed spawns at higher levels (@lonarins thought from another thread). So that once the mass death/stun spells are all cast there are still a good number of tough ready to fight angry bad guys to deal with. This would mean tweaking will and fort saves, adding some immunities, and adding some items. But it would result in the absolute need for a mixed party.

[jrizz]

Adding to my growing list of requests (maybe I should start to study the toolset and help make some of these changes instead of just asking for them)

1. More powerful magic items please that are Class, Race, Alignment restricted by OOC statements in the item description to overcome UMD being abused. Like how about +4 weapons since GMW now goes up to +6. And maybe the best of the armors (enchanted mithy) should be +5 and the best of the shields +4 now that vestments goes up to +6. How about some rings that are tied to deities and alignments that have +1 to +4 stats with some other things on them like pluses to saves or some spell affect x times a day.

2. I dont know if anything can be done about this one but the UMD needed to use scrolls is kinda high (25 + the level of the scroll). The cost of those scrolls is also very high so there is already a good boundary to over use.

[SteveMaurer]

OK, this one is specifically in regards to Ed. I hope he takes it in the constructive way it is intended.

• Try not to say "no". Instead, see if you can find a way to say "Yes, but it will be hard". Consider this especially in terms of deity relations, because from current writings, Ed seems to see religions as fundamentally authoritarian in nature, with little tolerance for variations in faith. And while that is true of some religions, it is not true of all.

I will give an example. This entire sequence of threads started out when Ed just flat denied Honora's PC, Genna Brendimeere, from taking Sacred Fist levels, not rerally based on much. In response, she withdrew the request, and stated "Nothing further will be done with this char".

I do not like that result. It just isn't fun.

If I were the loremaster, this is what I would have written instead:

Shindaleria is Mother Ocean. While capable of violence when necessary, she hates random destruction, such as the way the demon's hurricanes wreak devistation upon her beautiful coral gardens. Thus, study of combat for its own sake is generally seen as a path to debasement. It is the way she has lost too many of her people to the demon goddess, Mist. She has no Sacred Fists.

Not yet.

Genna is hereby approved to take Fighter levels. She should also sign up for at least two CDQs, for her to develop her own unarmed Water Style combat techniques (which must be unarmed), complete with her own katas based upon the nature of water. This will culminate (if she survives), in a WLDQ to persuade the High priestess to present her case to Shindaleria herself. After this she will be rebuilt.

Understand that Genna is by no means guaranteed success, even if she lives to see the WLDQ. In fact, there are at least four possible outcomes of this decade long quest. She could: 1] Fail to convince the High Priestess to offer her sponsorship, in which case Genna would be rebuilt into a 100% fighter, 2] Convince the High Priestess to continue the relationship, even when the Goddess herself has doubts, in which case Genna will be allowed a rebuild with all her current Cleric levels removed and her Fighter levels replaced with Monk levels (and become a special associate of the temple), 3] Convince the Goddess and be allowed a full rebuild as a Sacred Fist, or 4] Be taken in by a spiritual bond with Shindaleria, and rebuild as a full Cleric (perhaps with more of a martial focus than normal Shindaleria Clerics engage in). The most likely outcome is 1], but if she succeeded in 2] or 3], she would become Grandmaster, and founder of, the Water Monastery.

I already have in mind some of the things Shindaleria, and her high priestess, will, and will not, accept as katas (in game represented as skills and feats) deserving of sponsorship. It will be up to Genna to find these on her own, but I will instruct the GMs to give broad hints. And I will start with one hint here: at least one aspect of a water style kata that Shindaleria would accept, is not actually combat effective in Layonara for other reasons.

If the player decides to take it upon herself to do this, there is story there. Genna may not succeed. It may be a tragedy in the end, but there isn't so much of the out of game business that turns players off, and causes them to abandon perfectly good characters and stories.

[jrizz]

@Steve sorry to be so blunt-headed but, is there a request in there? Are you asking for more unique ways to build up unique PCs? I like the idea of taking some base class levels and then rebuilding later on a successful CDQ.