MMO Objectives Discussion - The Constantly Lifted Level Cap

[Acacea]

((This isn't NWN related, but it's Layo related and is a discussion/suggestion, so I had to put it somewhere.))

In all games, the player must continue to have goals and the opportunity to progress their abilities. It's just a fact of life, most especially if it is a commercial game. High level content has made or broken other games in the past, surely, because no one ever wants to get to the point where they invest a great deal into a character, and it piddles off into boredom for lack of anything to do. I would say that for a long time, high level content actually broke Layo for a lot of people, because it just wasn't there. And then when it is added, you sort of wonder what you defeated the bad guys of doom for, anyway, when more are just going to be added coming from nowhere in order to keep you entertained.

In most games, satisfying the craving for advancement is the general expectation of expansions that will continuously raise the bar and add higher levels and higher level content to go with that. The ceiling will continue to get raised, because you are always in need of something to keep players interested, more shinies for them to keep playing your game for, etc. They want more ability points, more loot, more monsters, etc. So in most games, it will go up for as long as they keep releasing updates for the game. That's what we want in those games.

But in places like Layonara, where despite the commercial aspect of the new game some level of roleplay is surely going to be aimed for, how much sense does that make? You simply can't keep raising the bar after a certain point, it doesn't make any sense. You cannot tell us that a villain has the entire world in the palm of his hand to crush at any given time, run us through a circus of legendary trials to eventually, years later, defeat him...and then the next week release an expansion that populates all the cities with guards that could kick the former villain's butt. That just slaps everyone who bothered getting invested in your plot. There has to be a point SOMEwhere where "you win," a point where the cap has been raised and raised again but then you have run out of challenges in the world. Sure, then you go to the Pits, but after that? and that? And what about when you conquer all that, but the game is called Layonara, it's about THIS world, what the heck do you do? You need to win, sometime.

What? You can't win in an MMO, that doesn't make any sense, you have to keep making monsters more and more epic, add more and more epic loot, make horrible villains pointless and pathetic by making new villains even more horrible even if the former one was supposed to rule them all! MORE!

In my opinion, that's retarded.

*Ducks any flying objects before continuing.*

Ahem. The problem, in my opinion, is that in one version, the player constantly improves in power and items at the expense of realism, roleplay, and investment in a campaign (like most of the Korean translations)- and in the other, the player 'wins' and has nowhere to go and doesn't want to start a new character and is bored.

Both of those are very bad for this kind of game, surely. I agree that a player should never run out of things to do. That there should always be opportunities. However, there should be a point where you can no longer progress 'up' in terms of power, and need to progress 'sideways.' Instead of the usual safe route of constantly raising a cap, there should be alternate means of advancement. I'm not really a PvP freak and that's a whole 'nother huge issue to tackle and balance, but if a player gets to that certain point of power where he looks around and most of the enemies in his range are other players also wrestling for dominance.

When you get to a certain level of mechanical power, there should be nowhere else to go to learn to 'hit things harder.' Instead, high level game play becomes the realm of politics, of rulers, the underworld, possession of some item that all the world is constantly seeking to take from you, armies at your command, etc. (For the record, yes I think there is a great deal you should be able to do politics-wise without necessarily being high 'level', but that is a different subject)

You need to provide things to do, yes, but there comes a point where you just can't really learn to hit something harder. Instead of taking the easy way and just hitting that button that makes all PCs able to now gain the skill to wipe the floor with Bloodstone with a sneeze yet still die to a city guard, involve them! Make them part of the world and use their power to compete in it.

Some games claim to do so, but I would like to see that Layo is wanting to still be some game that involves players in the world and shapes it around them, rather than plopping them in a place, trotting them around on a lead, and constantly lifting the carrot higher to satisfy the "me want hit hard" crowd.

[jrizz]

*looks up* Well you really did point out the challenge of goal based systems. But I think there is room and even a craving for something different then the current "goal" based systems. A system that is more story driven without classes and levels, with only skills that grow with time used or by doing tasks, where "grinding" gets you nothing. In a P2P game we wont be able to set and enforce and bunch of rules. So we need a system designed to support the spirit of layonara and RP. A system that takes away the need for rules (well griefiing and exploit rules will always be needed) and is not goal driven. This is very doable as long as you set out with the right design goals in mind. NWN is a goal based system and really does not support the spirit of Layonara and RP.

[vgn]

I love you post Acacea and would like to point out a few things about the current Layonara and they also apply to future versions and other games.

For well over a year now, Leanthar and other world building people have encouraged GMs to incorporate Epic/World Leaders in their quests, not as part of the main party, but actually more as a resource and potentially even a protagonist. Few GMs end up actually doing this, but it has been done.

I think what is really needed is a few things:
1. An actual structure in place to make it worth everyone's time and investment. If an epic character is included in a quest in this fashion they need some kind of gain for it. I believe they get xp as usual, but perhaps this needs to be considered revisited a little. This also goes to your other post about the ridiculousness of epic level characters coming along on a quest that is "open level" but really geared towards lower levels. It provides a nice alternative and makes more sense.

2. For a very long time layo had no or very few evil characters. This is beginning to change, but except for some instances where non-evil characters had drastically opposing dogmas there was not enough friction to pull off political struggles and other truly epic issues. Now evil is actually an option and I think with it comes a lot more opportunities to see exactly this. A player can be a true villain.

3. With some GM support there can be power struggles between PCs as quests now become one powerful PC recruiting lower level resources to go after another powerful PC. There is no reason why at this point in layo's evolution that WLCDQs should not contain multiple World Leaders often pitted against one another and they cannot all "win."

Leanthar has always long been in support of players making lasting changes and differences in the world. I think he would be very excited to see his GM staff run with some of these ideas and through team work (GM pairs, etc) actually breath some realistic life into the world of Layonara.

Finally I'll pose a few thoughtful questions for consideration by both GMs and players:
1. Is there any reason why a player could not assume a true political role in the world? Titles, realms, etc?
2. Is there anything stopping a GM from instead of randomly making up some powerful quest giver (you know the ones, the convenient folks that have a problem only the adventurers can solve), using a powerful PC to play this role and perhaps working with him or her find out some real motivations for something to occur?
3. Is there any reason why an evil character of any level cannot be used as the villain in a quest?

[miltonyorkcastle]

Mhhmm, yes, right on. Keep it coming.

PC's have become/are political entities in Layo. Mostly in the clergy, but a few in secular politics as well. It has been one of my goals to work a character into a place of political power, but it's a significant undertaking, because failure is a very real. Plenty of other folks would be just as happy to take the position from your PC. But that's the fun of it.

[Shadowblade225]

I would really like to see WL characters be used more as a quest resource. One or two characters have been used fairly frequently in the past though I do get the sense that some GMs can be a bit timid to ask a player. All WL characters are a resource. They've established themselves as having a truly meaningful reputation. Please use them.

I haven't played much and my attitudes are somewhat pessimistic with certain facets of the game so perhaps I'm not so apt to judge here. But epic means little. To me it does. An epic character? What's that? I don't wish to open a can of worms here (although I probably have). I like the comment about growing to new traits (sideways as I think it was put) as opposed to continually raising the cap. I love how it was pointed out that city guards are more powerful than some of the older "world dominating" villains.

I think often times its easy to forget how the world once was. How easy it is to raise the cap. I think that new players don't realize how there have been many characters that have come and gone over the years. Players very vocal on the forums with established characters. Players who have been here for only a few months or even a year now have probably never even heard of some of these great RPd characters that have contributed much both in and out of game. Characters of all types, shapes, and sizes. So there's sort of a humility aspect to all of that.

Character progression has never been easier, rapid, and in some cases, hollow as it is today. I think this is just a fact of an outdated gaming system coupled with an overworked administrative staff focusing their time and energy on the new game engine as opposed to entirely on NWN Layonara. We need to commend the staff for their time and dedication and always continue to do so. The NWN version however is far past it's prime. Yep - I'll wait till folks scream that it's not. It doesn't have to be. That's true.

There is some sympathy that I do have with some characters who frequently log on to the tune of 10 people. This has also been beaten to death. It's tough. Still though....the frequent and often pointless looting trips are discouraging to see. Some times there's a need and hey, it can be a lot of fun. I only say pointless however because I continue to hear comments that there is still little RP going on during quite a few of these trips. There are characters that really shouldn't be a part of these trips. There's that balance thing again though. Fun versus realism. Tough...to me, tough. And yah - some will be vehemently defensive against the world "pointless."

Regardless of all of this, engaging PCs that have earned their reputation in various quests - villian, herald, leader, etc... is a great way to continue to really flesh out the world, it's characters, and keep the development true, meaningful, and long lasting. For the new version, threads such as this one, will continue to serve as a source of guidance and insight when designing the new game engine.

[Acacea]

I agree on using WLs as a resource in NWN Layonara, as right now most of the time they are a bit of a failed potential in that regard, I think. I've argued a few times that WLs should be used just like the World NPCs, but it's a mixed bag and a lot of GMs prefer not giving PCs information and using their favorite NPCs to do it, instead.

So actually opposite of GMs being timid to ask a WL to be used as a resource on their quests, I've seen WL abilities pretty waved aside and demeaned depending on what DM is running the quest. If I go on one DM's quest, we might end up running to a prestigious WL for help in something none of us can accomplish for best result, or I might go on one in which they are given little to no information about their field of expertise, with little to no influence. So unless this has changed recently, it's still a mixed bag.

It would probably be less of one, however, if there were more guiding roles available and less ones available in main party. I think the best results I have seen were when a WL was outside of the quest but was a valuable resource to its success, vs a WL in the main party and getting their abilities/positions ignored because the DM doesn't want to break the quest.

[Chongo]

Great sentiments.

I don't think that they can realistically be applied *at all* to the NWN Layonara. That effort is futile, it was futile when the initial visions circling this sort of thing were voiced for v3, which as we all know was an effort that somewhere decided: 'hey, we can do this better if we start from scratch'. There's a pool of folks that look at the core of the NWN engine and the core of Layonara and frown. Luckily, those folks are the ones that have gone on to developing what *could* be the unrealistic rarity that you hope for in your initial post. I hope for the best, it takes an entirely fresh look on gameplay with a very renegade and risky thought process on the business side of actually sustaining a server, a game, or even just an idea. I'd put my money on the fact that the percentage of sustaining dollars come from individuals that want the 'me hit harder' as you so creatively put it. Based on that model, which we see everywhere, it'd be an interesting sight to see someone be so bold as to create a game mechanic that sought asymmetric progression. I honestly can't think of ways to do it.

Why do you stick with a character? Advancement. Nobody can argue this, and if you're doing the overly typical 'shout for roleplay' against advancement, you just don't get it. It happens in different mediums. There are of course the numbers. That's what the anti-progressionists denounce as the evil of the lands. There are the social relationships, progressions therein that establish a wanting to continue in the advancement of those relationships. This is what you call good roleplay. And yes, it's a personal advancment that keeps you logging in. There are the intangible 'I am an approved god' progressions. Things that people typically can only roleplay towards in application quests humorously. Where they can gain favor in a section of the community through divine (GM) intervention and approval. Something that a single digit percentage of our GM to player ratio will ever see. There are all sorts of advancements. And again, it comes down to the creation of a game mechanic that fosters the latter intangibles in a fashion that doesn't require a GM organization so vast and so organized that it by default could take over planet earth in less then a year due to its efficacy and motivation.

How do you create something that harnesses advancement in this fashion? I know that the founding fathers of the next generation of Layonara have some interesting concepts of course. But we'd all better believe that it's uncharted territory. And hey, the SIMS works. It is an advancement/ interest scale that exists almost solely on the advancement of the aforementioned social relationships. This is actually a good baseline to work off of. It works! I know, it's wild to me too. It's an interesting world we live in these days. The psychological implications of wanting advancement in relationships that don't directly impact you or your real life persona are becoming more and more socially acceptable. And hey, in my strange opinion it's this sort of thing that enables world peace, though we need to get by the initial stages where you have a vast population that desparately wants to burn bridges and have their own empowering 'emotional nukes'. Moving on though...

Where do you build up on this concept? Alright, the SIMS is roleplay. It is our proven chart of social advancement bringing in a playerbase. There is an absolutely massive gap to fill between this and D&D. Granted, it would appear that Layonara intends to disable the classic D&D advancement tables that we all have wound tightly in our little heads. But where does it take us? I honestly don't know. I hope for the best but I acknowledge the worst where every other proven game mechanic has incredible difficulties hitting any sort of middle ground. When you start talking about advancement on the scales that you mention below... this is a vast undertaking. First admitting that there will never exist a player-serving base of management type 'game masters' under a standard operating procedure set that pretty much would require it to be a full time profession by entities so consistent in behavior that they may as well be machines... you end up with only game mechanics to fall back on. So you bring in social structures and advancement. This is a feat by itself. And by itself it, at best, ends up a multiple PC version of Civilization. Common goals, advancement based on social structures or economics. And I have to be honest... where does it end up differing? Social advancements amongst kingdom based ideals? Does anyone here think that there's any difference in how an individual 90 hour a week player with skills (with a z of course) will advance in the old system versus this? It'll be the same scenario, only more organized and more gang based. We'll see the same 'evils', any way you can slice the current angles of gameplay evils. And on any progression that is scripted into the game, we're bound to witness this. So at the core, the only natural and true dynamic of progression falls back to a social only atmosphere. And again, the SIMS got that one. But... we don't play the SIMs, so what is it? Well there are a lot of answers for that which we can all answer to ourselves.

I honestly don't know. I found myself playing NWN 2 the past couple of nights because I've yearned to see the engine. And I was standing on that costal cliff city near the beginning just thinking how wonderful this setting would be for a start point on a PW. And it's a wonderful setting for multiple reasons. It's downright beautiful to sit under the stars in a community startpoint that is pleasant to simply sit there and do the SIMS thing. The town offers the opportunity to build in some sort of infrastructure, professions, things to become engrained in as a character persona. The immediate scenery evokes a sense of wonder and mystery as it's a coastal town and can yield a wondrous number of mysteries and adventures beyond the horizon of where the ships may take you. And I'm thinking, that in all of our SIMS style social progression, it's the fact that our eyes can keep wandering towards that horizon. The unknowns of adventures. How do you scale these adventures? How do you create progression where you don't simply retire after figuring out that you *can* in fact kill and eat that grizzly bear in the vast woods behind your house that you were always afraid of. People will inherently desire to find that life has more to offer them then the one fearsome challenge. That the greatest war of their life isn't the end-all of life changing events. That there's no reason to retire to their homes and sleep 24 hours a day because they know that the adventure will never be as impressive as they witnessed when whatever their real life version of Bloodstone falling at their hands may be. People are always going to seek this horizon, and so far... a d20 system of neverending advancement is the best source I've seen to let these horizons continue. The SIMS is there. We all cite it everyday in our 'real' or 'bench' roleplay allusions towards what's at the 'core' of Layonara. Or many do at least. It's just there, for anyone to make use of. How do you create a mechanic that creates gravity towards that horizon though? XP and me vs. the evils villains, PvP and us versus our enemies, kingdoms and political/military/ economic struggles and intruigue against our neighbors. It takes the social aspect, and then creates a massive dynamic off the tangible horizon that keeps the social aspect entertained with subjects that aren't entirely empty barstool chatterings, or worse, formed out of the horizons of one's theoritical ID. But we'd better believe that this dynamic is pretty darn complicated. Look at D&D. I mean... it's all there. The horizon's are vast and ever growing, and meanwhile there are so many opportunities for individuality and diversification to maintain interesting persona's that there is utterly no excuse for complaints on the theme not allowing for a fantastic dynamic. It's how it comes out in the game mechanic.

I personally haven't figured out a system along those lines that I'd take to a venture capitalist. When someone does, and finds a way to make it work in a sustainable environment, I'll pay my monthly fee.

[stragen]

Character progression has never been easier, rapid, and in some cases, hollow as it is today.

I would disagree with that. From my observations the layo community has shrunk. I would suggest that all the power-gamers have left. The quality of character-submissions needed to play, and the quality of resubmissions needed for prestige classes reflect this. This can easily compared to some of the first character submissions and prestige class submissions to more modern ones.

What is increasing is our perceived standards. Which may not be a bad thing.

Cheers,

Stragen

[Acacea]

((Bedtime. Less coherent. Author wishes to avoid responsibility for contents until a respectable hour, at which point she can actually read what was typed.))

I don't know, it seems like there is a bit of defensive monstracizing over one style of play than the other, or an assumption made about what one crowd deems as ideal or not that wasn't actually spoken.

For one, I love NWN in a thousand different ways, it's still my favorite game because I think of it as more of a sub-genre than a single game. I love toolsets, I love mods, and I love restrictions that I have to hack my way around because I'm some kind of masochist. I still check the vault every day, downloaded the alpha 1.69 patch, and would play NWN Layo for as long as it was up. I still bug Dorg and Pan with "what if we did this to get around this to accomplish this?" questions. I think it still has crazy potential that Layo did not even begin to fully crack, because I've seen the modules where people have gone nuts with it, and see the potential to enter mechanically some of this stuff they want people to just automatically roleplay. I'm also looking forward to getting MotB for NWN2, and I so wish some of the stuff there could have been in NWN, but I can't run it well and at the same time it is so far as Steelwind put it, just a game and not the genre of NWN1 for me. But NWN Layo is going away regardless, so I'm thinking on the next thing.

Regarding the sims, well, I see bench RP all the time, people sitting around talking about their kids and relationship drama, great. That's fun for some people, along with the buying a house decorating it and raising RP kids in it etc. That's not what I'm talking about, but it's nice to have for us like icing is good on cake. There are those that want to advance in ways other than combat without having to kill a thing too, like master craftsmen and diplomats, and that's cool too.

So is a group that is always on the road pitting themselves against evil and telling campfire stories. I don't care. Unlike as you probably took it Chongo, the "me hit harder" crowd wasn't that much directed at some in Layo compared to the majority of those who make up many other games, as the groups that are off bashing for the most part here are at least most of the time comprised of people who want to roleplay...adventurously, which is the whole point of the game. So what? That doesn't change the fact that at least to me, monsters in a single world can't just constantly get epic-er and epic-er to oblige you. The me want hit hards of Layo are pretty silly and small time compared to other servers and MMOs where they have little else to them and are somewhat glorified.

I deleted a huge paragraph here that is an argument for another time. Suffice is to say that I very much enjoy 'adventure roleplay', have never sought to punish people just because they have good builds, and have never argued the difference between 'bashing' and 'roleplay' as if people aren't expected to roleplay adventure here, have a lot of problems encountering good examples of it, understand that we should serve as examples of it, but think that's a completely different issue. There's room for a lot of different kinds of fun, but making sense in the world remains a boundary that a lot of creativity to keep pushing back, and even with that there's going to be a point where it seems like it will just be weird.

This whole pure combat adventuring be stretched out a LONG time, though! From continent to continent, to underwater ruins, to the many planar things waiting to be incorporated, there is a long way to stretch that road of "let's just go out and see what we can take," even though I think a lot of people would like to mix it up if the options were mechanically viable. I'm just saying, for the world/planet itself, it has to end somewhere. (We have a hard, permanent level cap here and no one has hit it yet...) Does someone taking over a city in an actual, mechanical way balanced somewhere between migraine micromanagement and RP figureheads automatically equate to the sims? I don't know, the sims make for pretty crappy stories, vs the long and winding stories that these games can have, even with the relationship drama talks.

Adventure doesn't have to be JUST always finding harder monsters to kill and I think it should account for different styles of play, but nowhere in my post did I degrade the killing of monsters or the people who seek to do so. That is ALWAYS going to be a huge part of the game, no matter what. Even in the alternate advancements and PvP you're still going to end up with raids and duels and assassinations. As well, the initial post was certainly not about NWN Layo and was never intended to be, it just sort of drifted that way. I think one of NWN's problems is that there was kind of a lack of creative options in the villain aspect of the game from the start - the ultimate villain card was played immediately because it was such a big campaign. Everything after it within the world itself should be less of a big deal. Not because we want everyone to feel that way, but because of the way it was brought to us since we were all level one. Personally, I think the dragons thing was kind of predictable and not necessarily a great move, because the ultimate villain card disabled and frightened the dragon card, so those who took out the former have a hard time wetting their pants at the latter. That kind of thing has to be handled carefully, I think, and is exactly the situation in which you start getting weird issues with the 'next big fight.'

The point was not "let's get rid of the raiding and bashing part of the game for social RP!" nor "let's not ever raise any level caps so ability progression never gets better and you have no choice but to try and rule a small hamlet!"

It's more that I think it is an actual issue (or rather, several issues that are all related), a point where someone would need to come down really finely in the middle to avoid screwing it up, hence trying to give both ends of the spectrum as a problem in terms of Layo; how do you satisfy everyone that is drawn to the sort of game Layo advertises itself as?

I was bouncing ideas off of myself for a long time today and often came back to musing on how one would create such a mechanically supported system (because that whole bit about divine GM intervention is tripe as any future system that still relied on "RP powers" and paper rules is doomed to failure and needs to be wiped out, far from numbers being the evil in the lands everything must be coded and quantified and visible IN game...you can't demand that things be followed or played in a certain way, you must create it that way! Don't want spawns memorized? Move them!) that at the same time would give things for people to do that weren't in the guilds deciding to rule the Rael kingdom or something insane like that, but are still playing every day and want to keep doing things.

I came back a lot to different angles on raids and alternate reward systems, as well as PvP, but I'd be an idiot and a liar to say I have the perfect solution - if I did I would be making a lot of money and not starting a discussion thread on ideas. I'm just not sure it's quite so stupid as it is painted above to consider how something can be done - and yeah, maybe I'd just make a poor business person and it's a good thing I'm not on their team, because I see zero point in trying to compete with all the money makers in games I don't play and would be more in it to see if hey, maybe we could do something different. The standard commercial model would never be good enough for me, even if the attempt at an ideal version ended up a smaller, niche game. I guess that's why I'm broke, though?

[Weeblie]

Just to make oneself stick out compared to all others... a short post here!

Well, I would also like a social advancement system, preferable not linked with the usual combat skills one. In other words... Player driven kingdoms, where people can have different positions and so that it actually has some meaning!

Ever read the Tom Clancy Net Force Explorer book (can't remember the title) about such a world?

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

I think the reason D&D, and the attitude surrounding it and its gameplay, is so suited to "Big Bad Nasty" who gets wasted at the end of the campaign... Is because there IS and "end" of the campaign. When you beat the big bad guy, you either find a god to kill, or scrap the campaign and start over with new characters and a different baddie.

File the character sheets away and start new ones, with new prospects.

I don't think most who play this sort of game (myself included) are really suited to doing that in an MMO environment. We don't all have a direct input on the plot, and don't all have a direct hand in the plot-related adventures. Time, location, all of these things can have an effect. But in the end, we're not all a big piece of the picture. So when the campaign ends, it can't just start over with something else. There are too many people who would be frustrated that it was over, who wouldn't advance and find "the end."

I think I could've handled making a new character after Bloodstone was killed, and scrapping Pyyran. I wouldn't have gotten where I have today with him, but I could've done it. But I wouldn't have been so happy, and neither would most others with theirs, I think.

I guess what I'm saying is that an MMO isn't suited for what we're trying to do with it; what we've always tried to do with it. We can meet it halfway, but we can't make it really work.

[Dorganath]

Originally Posted by Stephen_Zuckerman

I guess what I'm saying is that an MMO isn't suited for what we're trying to do with it; what we've always tried to do with it. We can meet it halfway, but we can't make it really work.

How so?

To further clarify... I agree the most common mode, or at least the most common perception of MMOs is hundreds or thousands of people running around and killing stuff...the power-leveling, "ding" chasing, loot hoarding throngs of characters with names like "n00bk1lla". Sure, a lot of games are designed around this "least common denominator", which is a fancy way of saying that they're trying to appeal to the broadest possible market...which of course makes perfect business sense.

On the other hand, they don't do anything to necessarily dampen the concept of RP, even if they don't actively encourage it. I've heard reports of random pockets of RP breaking out in MMOs all over the place.

Looking forward, would we be able to realistically have a high RP MMO and still have enough interest to remain financially in the black? Tough to say, but I'd guess it would be difficult to unlikely, as there would be more than just server costs involved. However, that's not to say that one MMO cannot figure out a way to cater to both the heavy RPers and the hack-n-slashers...to involve people in the plot who wish to be and to let those who just want to grind up to the top level do their thing. I can think of several ways this could be done, really.

Originally Posted by stragen

I would disagree with that. From my observations the layo community has shrunk. I would suggest that all the power-gamers have left. The quality of character-submissions needed to play, and the quality of resubmissions needed for prestige classes reflect this. This can easily compared to some of the first character submissions and prestige class submissions to more modern ones.

What is increasing is our perceived standards. Which may not be a bad thing.

Cheers,

Stragen

Yes and no. It's bigger than it was when I started, smaller than it was a year ago. It ebbs and flows. I think the NWN community as a whole is shrinking. Other large and long-time PWs close down and only a handful spring up to replacement. People move on to other platforms (NWN2, WoW, etc.) and so on.

Power-gamers still exist here and yeah, I think it is far easier and forgiven to level quickly these days and as been since we changed the system of "Epic" characters into "World Leader" characters and relaxed the cap on leveling past 20th. Is this good or bad? Depends. We had one character zip from 1st to 20th in about 2 months flat before we ever thought of lifting the level 20 cap. That character wasn't played much after that because he had nowhere to go...but I bet it was still kind of fun getting there.

Given the choice I still wouldn't zip up to 20th in a few months, because I had too much fun getting there in the first place. Others would have more fun rapidly gaining the power and ability that comes with that high-level status. I can't tell you though how many times I have heard people actually regret having gone so fast. That's not to say everyone will feel that way, of course.

And to touch on something Acacea said: Yeah, NWN is a really fun platform. It has some serious limitations, but also a lot of potential that we, and the community in general, haven't fully exploited. That said, there's something to be said about being able to really change the way the game works rather than continually fighting the assumptions and hard-coded systems that Bioware put in place. Layonara on NWN has two key problems:

The first is that it was designed, balanced and built back when NWN stopped at level 20. At some point later, Bioware upped it and as a result there was a lot of compensation for the Epic levels, but it was still balanced for those pre-Epic characters. We now have enough active Epic-level characters to fill a server and then some, which of course presents an end-game problem for those characters.

The second is that Layonara has a far different balance curve than NWN's original intent. NWN is heavily built around Forgotten Realms and a much higher magic level that what Layonara is about. The battles we have fought in trying to get vision and pre-compiled mechanics to play nicely have been, in some cases, epic in their own right.

Don't get me wrong...I really do like the NWN platform, and I'll be a bit emotional when we eventually close down the NWN servers. I've put a ton of effort into this version of things, as a player, GM and developer. At the same time, I'm really excited about the potential of the new game system and the complete control we have over things. No more pulling out our hair trying to work around someone else's bugs or limitations. We get to pull our our hair working around our own bugs and limitations, which is far less frustrating.

And of course this is the point in the conversation where I just grin mischievously at what's been said and offer no clues as to how we are planning on addressing these things in the future. So speculate away. This is a pretty good discussion, and rest assured we are actually reading this stuff and listening to the interests of our community.

I'll step back from this now and let it develop on its own.

[Chongo]

Acacea, that wasn't my token hack versus roleplay post. Or it wasn't meant to come off that way. The major point of the wordy statement was that we have an atmosphere that meets plenty of roleplay needs. We have a game mechanic that supplies a pretty wonderful d20 adventuring system. These are things that were either handed to us by bioware, or things that were handed to us by the long drawn out story that Dan started and Ed is running with.

What we don't have is that massive undertaking of the 'other systems' you are referring to (politics etc). And I have a few reservations with the idea that this will be any different then the xp, gold, cnr, or any other progression we have. It's either going to take a massive number of GMs, which is very unlikely, or it's going to take a new type of engine which supports it, which we can hope for but let's not forget that they are reinventing the wheel by moving away from d20 and probably have a lot on their plate. And then once we have it... what's going to change in the progression woes? I just think that in every facet of ranked progression that we're going to see the same exact problems you are mentioning. It will be a neverending progression that always has the bar lifted or otherwise altered to create something new, and it will of course be influenced by folks that attain their status off the hard earned hourly crunch. The only other way I can think to do this is a GM system that controls it, and I don't see this influencing more then a handful of select players on an MMO to the point where it's a separate and private little game while the rest of the world still survives off ranked progression.

I honestly just can't see an easy way to do it. So what I'm expecting, or hoping for at best, is game systems in place to support alternate routes of advancement - while fully acknowledging that it will still be the same old can of worms with the neverending progression ceilings. I just don't see any way to put a lid on that can and still have an MMO.

[LynnJuniper]

I don't know if "Reputation" or this politics thing is going to work without direct GM intervention, AKA feeling like you're important and there's another "thinking entity" making it matter.

I hate to bring up WoW as an example here, but I'm going to. In WoW There is a 'reputation' system. It allows you to gain reputation with the hard coded factions (Argent Dawn, Sha'atar, Aldor, Scryers), by completing quests given by the factions, by killing things the factions dont like (Example: Killing Undead in the Eastern Plaguelands gives Argent Dawn , the paladin order, faction points). In this system you work from Neutral (Or unfriendly) all the way up to exhalted. What this gives you is a chance for better items, opens new content in the way of instances and quests, and basically allows for you to do things you could not have done without it.

As a result...

people grind it like they grind levels.

Once they cant get any higher in levels, they turn around and grind reputation....

Not sure if this is what Acacea meant, or 'wants' but..I thought I'd add the example.

[Ar7]

I apologize up front for not reading the entire thread, I may repeat some ideas or speak of something already said, but after reading Acacea's post I just had to write something (even though I haven't played for a long while)

If I think back to my experience with Layonara and the people I interacted with, then many people experienced a change of goals after a certain amount of time had passed. Whether or not they experienced such a change depended on how much they valued RP, but for the example's sake we shall only speak of the ones that did, otherwise such a change never happened and people simply left.

After reaching a certain level, 14 in V1 or epic in V2, people began to ignore levels. They faced a situation where benefits from another "point" were a lot less than the effort it needed. Instead it became more prestigious to try and influence the various events of the world, through active participation on quests, creation of guilds or recruitment of followers. That way a character stood out from the majority and not due to having killed more monster or sat through more quests, but by having done something that none came close to.

It was this urge that made Layonara what it is - a rich and different world.

But one cannot break the logical development, due to the level based system of NWN there will always be a development of goals, certain phases that a character and the player go through.

Levels and experience -> to gain certain freedom in the world, to know that you aren't the weakest and won't be killed while gathering corn.

Crafting and social networs -> in order to make a living for the character and make him known in the world

"Soft goals" or influencing the world -> to lift a character above others in the world.

Such an evolution cannot be changed due to the nature of NWN and it is actually quite realistic, in some ways it resembles how a person goes through life.

What is the point of this blabbering?

If you wish to further enrich the world then offer more possibilities for the character to influence the said world. Of course in Layonara there are posibilities to do so, but they are limited, framed. Here is what I mean by that.

When we enter the world, the major roads are already created, there is a villian, a King, a high cleric, a god and so on. Players can only sway the development by choosing one of the predefined roads (e.g. either help the High priest or King), but they can never "create a new road", as such their role is to carry out orders, they do not create history, but follow a script.

Now a totally different situation of possibilites would arise if players would be allowed to create "new paths". Imagine if Blood was a PC, King of Dregar was a PC, High Cleric of Rofirein, again, a PC. They in turn would depend on other players, creating a rich network of roleplaying situations, people would actually be in charge.

This of course has the consequenses of going terribly wrong and ruining the world. But this is where the DM team comes in, their role should change from creating stories to creating an system of balances, a self-regulating environement.

This probably sounded confusing, I always have trouble clearly expressing myself, so I will bring an example. Imagine a planned economy and a free market economy, in the former the government controls everything, in the latter the government creates a system where people can act freely and acts as its guarantee. In Layonara the government is the DM team and it currently functions like in a planned economy.

I believe if such a change was made Layonara would become much more lively and vibrant, but one must remember that creating a self regulating system is extremely hard.

Hopefully I managed to get my idea across and not loose people in a lenghty confusing post.

Thank you

[Leanthar]

Naw, I understand exactly what you are trying to get at here Ar. It is what I had (and still do) hoped for in Layonara. It is just so much more difficult on so many levels.

"....This of course has the consequenses of going terribly wrong and ruining the world. But this is where the DM team comes in, their role should change from creating stories to creating an system of balances, a self-regulating environement. ...."

Systems...if we did it with sytems it would take 1000's and 1000's of hours to get right and balanced and it would never be right and balanced. I tried to go down this path and got less than 2% down the road with it, it just isn't going to happen any time soon that is for sure. GM's.... This could work but only to a degree. You have player ego's, frustrations, right/wrong accusations, rumor mongering, truth bending/breaking, and all kinds of other things that just ruin it for so many others on so many levels; this is very sad to say but it is true.

I hear you though. What you described is what I have/had always hoped for with Layonara....I am just not so sure it is even possible any more.

[Ar7]

Thank you for the reply L.

I must clarify though, that by system I did not mean programmed systems. I wanted to propose to mimic institutions, traditions, rules (how ever you might call them) that in the past and present regulated real life societies. It doesn't make the task easier, but it does not require any programming or computer power. Instead it looks towards the community to carry out the main work, I believe Layonara is one of the few communities able to handle it.

This is based on several presuppostitions.

First is that people generally respect other people's opinion more than they respect laws. If we look at corporate culture, if being late brings minor monetary sanctions, then people will continue to be late, but if being late makes others look down on you, then people generally won't be late in the first place.

The second presuppostition is to give people contradicting interests, so they cannot all band together and abuse the world. Take the medieval world for example, with the King, nobility, army, merchants, peasants etc.

This is where the DM team should design a system. If there are the positions of a King, High Priest, Black Wizard and High Druid, then these positions should all have certain expectation attached to them e.g

King is dependant on the support of town mayors, army leaders, clerics, they can oust him from power.

Black Wizard can make any decision he wants to, but risks coming up against the coalition of all others.

Druid is limited by neutrality and protection of balance or he might be ousted by other druids and even stripped of his powers.

The key here is that this system should not be deterministic, as in every position having an X amount of rights and an Y amount of duties and there being a Z amount of positions, quite the opposite.

There should be an undefined number of positions, depending on how the players wish to develop themselves, so even if a Paladin is chosen as protector of Northern Mistone during times of trouble the Corathies may try to bribe enough people to get rid of him and establish their tyranny.

Each position should also act based on what players come up with and how they will play it out, this being based on RP, with absurd situation being where DMs intervene.

Creating a world that mimics real life mechanism is by no means easy, probably even more difficult than coding 1000 hours of systems. It should be introduced gradually and tested. For example one should begin with three position that have minor influence and define the basic rules for them. Perhaps a head of a fortress, a minor noble, a high druid of a local area and so on.

This is a task of extreme proportions, but the way I see it, it is the only way Layonara can develop further.

[LynnJuniper]

But Ar7. We have a player that is the heirophant (sp?) A player that's the Bird Lord of Layonara. A character who is the high druid of Corsain. A character that is the Beloved of Lucinda, a character who is the Warlord of the Bloody Gate, A Character who is Striving to be the head of an ungerground abolitionist organization, high Illusionist of Layonara and one day RULE THE WORLD...er...ignore that last one

But you get my drift

[Ar7]

Originally Posted by LynnJuniper

But Ar7. We have a player that is the heirophant (sp?) A player that's the Bird Lord of Layonara. A character who is the high druid of Corsain. A character that is the Beloved of Lucinda, a character who is the Warlord of the Bloody Gate, A Character who is Striving to be the head of an ungerground abolitionist organization, high Illusionist of Layonara and one day RULE THE WORLD...er...ignore that last one

But you get my drift

Despite their magnificent titles they are not the ones making the decisions, look back at some of the quests (though things could have changed) in times of trouble a group of adventurers usually receives some choices. They are still pawns and not the decision makers.

The "trouble" was caused by a preset script.

The choices were given by a NPC

The main good guy and the main bad guy are NPCs

The characters are ultimately fighting for the sake of "world peace" and have very limited self interests.

High level characters simply have more influence over which choice to take, but they do not make history. Like said in some of the posts in this thread, when on a quest they are often kept in the dark in their own area of specilization, as to not brake the flow of the quest.

[Gulnyr]

The problem is not that the positions don't exist or that player characters aren't filling them, but that there is no system in place to make it matter that they do and are.

That's no one's fault; there just aren't enough DMs and other resources to make it work right now.

[Xirion]

Ar7, I think I got your point. As I read theought this thread I gor nearly the same idea and fully support this... and am aware of the difficulties.

But If the king, with the powers of a king would be a NPC and the clerical leader of rofirein had the power IG one would suppose him to have OOC and other church keader too... if the followers of Corath and his leader would have this powers too and maybe there are differrnt kings, there are intresting scenarios.

There would be opposing sides, not only the "good" and the "bad", but just different views.

maybe I am not long enough a member here toi juge in what degree it is established in layo but I'd bet it is not in that degree (not complayning here, really not!)

[lonnarin]

Many of these PC rulers/organization heads have also been absent in game for so long that its a detriment to the subordinate followers of their hierarchy who lack guidance and regulation. Key positions of political power should not be enjoyed in absentia. If however, there was a set level of expectation of active participation in the campaign world where their status could be revoked after 2 months, as is stated in our rules to be done for WL status holders, it might stir up some realizable goals for the players who are still playing. One does not lead or rule the world from retirement.

If we want PC-Governing systems to work, the team must resolve to persistantly govern those PCs in government. Otherwise rumor-mongering and egos arise from the active player community who doesn't understand why a person they never met who hasn't logged in for more than half a year has some team-granted power over them. (and if that person was a team member at any point... oh the rumors and ill sentiment that arise there) This solution too poses the problem of infuriorating the former kings, nobles, hierophants, high wizards etc who come back after being stripped of their titles and call farce. The team would have to be very very careful to enforce its expectations to the very exact letter of the law that's written, else there will be accusations of favoritism. "hey, this guy was absent for 4 months and still has his title, while mine got stripped in exactly 2 months... what gives?" or "how come I don't get a quest to be king but he does?" or "How come I can't get wings no matter what, HE got them?" etc. It's a very tricky and volatile tightrope to tread in either scenario... PC vs NPC governments.

I would far prefer removing all kingships, nobility, political positions of power and spiritual leadership from all PCs and having them all regulated and controlled by NPCs under GM control. It's so much of a headache for the team to keep monitering and regulating these systems and the riots that break out from inter-player conflict. Imagine the storm that would ensue if a high priest excommunicated a clergyman for OOC, or that a King's nation was sacked while he was on a summer vacation in Europe. Ugh... I wouldn't want to get involved in that level of conflict... especially when IC political conflict becomes involved which could spill over into OOC political conflict.

I suggest that we have very clear rites of succession, standards of active participation and regulation of political PC leaders if we do go that route. IG politics are a great way to add more incentive to keep playing for a goal beyon levels, but man it can be a headache to maintain that system.

[Shadowblade225]

Originally Posted by stragen

I would disagree with that. From my observations the layo community has shrunk. I would suggest that all the power-gamers have left. The quality of character-submissions needed to play, and the quality of resubmissions needed for prestige classes reflect this. This can easily compared to some of the first character submissions and prestige class submissions to more modern ones.

What is increasing is our perceived standards. Which may not be a bad thing.

Cheers,

Stragen

Certainly the character approval process is far superior and better controlled in terms of quality than back when I submitted a character. I still stand by my statement though and keep in mind that I never generalize. There's always exceptions. As for powergamers - it seems this term is becoming more relative as far as definitions go. The community has shrunk and development threads are still being churned out. Character progression is still considerably more rapid than it's ever been. *shrugs* just a fact. It's impossible to police it all and so you offset from time to time that increased quality of submission. People run wild. Hence the diety relations issue brought up not so long ago.

Originally Posted by Acacea

I agree on using WLs as a resource in NWN Layonara, as right now most of the time they are a bit of a failed potential in that regard, I think. I've argued a few times that WLs should be used just like the World NPCs, but it's a mixed bag and a lot of GMs prefer not giving PCs information and using their favorite NPCs to do it, instead.

So actually opposite of GMs being timid to ask a WL to be used as a resource on their quests, I've seen WL abilities pretty waved aside and demeaned depending on what DM is running the quest. If I go on one DM's quest, we might end up running to a prestigious WL for help in something none of us can accomplish for best result, or I might go on one in which they are given little to no information about their field of expertise, with little to no influence. So unless this has changed recently, it's still a mixed bag.

It would probably be less of one, however, if there were more guiding roles available and less ones available in main party. I think the best results I have seen were when a WL was outside of the quest but was a valuable resource to its success, vs a WL in the main party and getting their abilities/positions ignored because the DM doesn't want to break the quest.

Oh and ya, I still think in some cases, GMs can be a bit timid. Certainly the above is very true though.

[Pen N Popper]

A very interesting thread. Hope you don't mind me digging it out from the dustbin.

I have always been of a mind that the ideal world is one that the players shape by their actions. Layonara is partly founded on that premise: The players have some leeway to make things happen ingame via RP with one another (guilds, housing, etc), but the true mastery of Layonara came with how the players dealt with the team's story arc (scheduled GM quests).

The alternate career track on Layonara has been, "Work hard at RPing your career and the team will help you out with small things along the way." For example, a guild may buy a place to meet, a religion may expand a church, a tavern, a paperboy, etc. However, this is an ad hoc system that not everyone figures out how to crack open and take advantage of.

I agree with the sentiment that scripting a system to support player-driven Sim City kingdoms would be an undertaking of enormous proportions. However, as with any project sometimes small steps can lead you where you want to go.

Let's take a bored WL that wants to start a new town up in the snowy northern isles. What if you gave him a spreadsheet representing his efforts. As an epic PC he might have an initial budget for castle construction, household staff, guards, etc. He may have some farms, etc. What I am saying is that the rules behind the system are more important than the scripted frontend. Put this in front of one of your creative WLs and that gives them the basis for building a kingdom.

Yes, for each kingdom there are team resources required. The primary one being an area builder to implement the build requests in the kingdom. These requests could be once per ingame year to represent the time involved. The key, though, is that the WL would know that they had the resources to make things happen. (They can spend time on RPing with their PC minions instead of grinding for gold to fill their coffers.)

Some balance between XP levels and WL levels might keep your higher levels entertained and engaged with the younger ones, and keep them entertained.

[Pen N Popper]

Just so you don't think I'm too crazy in my thinking. This is from a NWN2 PW's site: http://www3.telus.net/Riddoch-De-Di-...pies-Small.htm

It's their crafting recipe spreadsheet. The thing is that it includes recipes for stone walls and cottages. That's kind of what I imagine is missing in many of the player-driven quests: Recipes for success.

[Falonthas]

ok now that i have thought about what i have read

maybe the pc run system part would be more valid if it was seen as evolving

yes we have people with titles and are the chosen of the gods and godesses, but wait
these characters still face something never brought into effect
they age
they grow wiser but cant hold that mace that high anymore
or since when does this armor make me stoop over

perhaps in the perfect world those with titles will see they need an heir
or a chosen sucessor to follow them

i recall in anne mccaffrey's books about the heptite guild
the guild members would live to great lengths of time, but eventually even they got too old for their symbiont to regenerate their bodies

the guild master was guild master over a period of a hundred years or so and then he started teaching his chosen replacement
and in time then he died as well

the cycle continues

will there always be a bird lord, no because they are the chosen of the goddess, but it doesnt mean that one cant have a goal to be bird lord or animal lord
or heirophant, or high druid of the isle they grew up on
or high priestess of their church
or shining hand

you always have titles but you cant expect one to simply succumb to being that once achieved without them having a further goal themselves

im sure those who reach those heights want to be closer to their god or to the oak or retire on another plane or dimension

or perhaps if they are truly that good or that evil
ascend to the heavens themselves

bottom line is if everything is a cycle, then even the lowly altar boy can see himself in his prime as a shining hand with the fancy armor and glowing weapons
why cause he will have his time as his predecessors have and his followers will after him as well

[Blackguy]

I think this comic realy sums it up what Acacea meant.

MMOG Comics

[lonnarin]

Originally Posted by Blackguy

I think this comic realy sums it up what Acacea meant.

MMOG Comics

Lol, Yeah... the thing I really couldn't stand about WoW was that you'd be this awesome powerhouse orc, slaying demons, headhunters, huge basilisks and stuff, then all of the sudden you go out to the sahara plainslands and some zebra or giraffe winds up killing you with one herbivorous nibble. Then once you best those and go further past the crossroads, you wind up fighting a wee spider about 1/16th their size and about 20x harder. Then how one guy soloing at level 50 can somehow lay waste to a whole screen full of monsters who always rip to shreds a party of 10 level 40s.