Hiding Faith - Divine Relation Opposing Ability

[Acacea]

The whole Divine Relation thing comes up a lot, just query it and see the angst. In the General Discussion today it was asked that it basically only work on the dead to know who to raise or who not to raise, which I don't really agree with and in general think it doesn't make much sense.

However, the topic does warrant some thought for the future incarnation, because we will not be limited by NWN mechanics. Since everything starts from the ground up, we have the opportunity to think, not how does it work, or why, or how could it work with our current limitations... but just ideally, how should it work?

I think what might be a good compromise is the ability for certain deities to allow clerics to mask the divine links of their followers, the better to blend in when forced. Perhaps even only certain sects of particular faiths, and maybe not even strictly evil. While I don't think it should be as heavily used as some threads seem to wish ('enemy' is enemy, and that's all, not evil, and for the vast majority of cases a good character trying to convert an enemy means an opportunity to do the same), it would still be neat with some restrictions. Not 'at will' and being unable to change the specific relation, for example...just the equivalent of temporarily blanking your deity field. Perhaps for gods with the trickery domain or leanings in that direction? Since we won't have the domains... still it applies.

A Hound would have great use of it. A Corathite in some situations, as well, though not as often. If the Guardians were not being disbanded, even Lucindites of the Cerlyn Wethrina would have this ability fit perfectly in with their ward of shadows and secrecy.

An enemy follower may become the wolf among sheep with such an ability, and Divine Relation could then be used as an opposed spell to it. A herd of acolytes and lower level priests of Katia may be taken in by the 'neutral' enemy, whereas Plenarius with his strength of faith would not only not be fooled, but recognize the attempt to hide it. Someone between may see the truth without seeing what was done to hide. It would depend on who was doing the masking, and who was doing the detecting. Who is stronger in their faith?

I don't think all faiths should have it, but for the trickier ones I feel it would be a really good addition to avoid detection being a matter of certainty, while still being a real and constant danger. Branderback, Shadon, Corath, extinct Lucinda (trickery version), even Beryl (more for their safety and sanctuary than infiltration) would all be examples of deities I think it works well with.

It would be useful for getting past deity faction specific NPCs in a pinch, for sure...

[darkstorme]

I would argue that this would be tricky, as Divine Relation (as it stands in an RP sense) is asking your deity for their opinion of an individual. So any counter-spell would have to fool a god.

I would suggest that rather than blanking out one's own "aura", the spell do something like nullify the Divine Relations ability for a given radius/period of time. Rather than ally/neutral/enemy, all the priest asking would get is "no answer". This would, of course, make people suspicious.. but a clever individual might even be able to use the ability to throw doubt on another.

[Acacea]

I didn't say anything about fooling a god. The god is quite clear. A level 1 priest does not hear as well as a level 20 one, however, and is more easily confused.

I would argue the nullifying the divine relation ability to be actually much worse, because you are not just confusing the opinion of one person but actually canceling out a priest's ability to seek guidance from his god, as the Divine Relation itself is not a spell itself. That seems a much bigger deal to me and requiring something of a much greater scale.

[Dorganath]

Originally Posted by darkstorme

I would argue that this would be tricky, as Divine Relation (as it stands in an RP sense) is asking your deity for their opinion of an individual. So any counter-spell would have to fool a god.

Well no, I think she means a person would as his/her deity to fool the other deity. No character could hope to fool a deity on their own.

EDIT: Or what she said. *points up*

[Acacea]

Right, yeah. Deity vs deity or character vs character, but never character vs god.

[Eight-Bit]

Sounds cool. Do it up.

[Krell Himmler]

Oh, the thing about knowing their god was pulled from the Raise dead in DnD, pnp. When raising them and in contact with their spirit a cleric could tell what their alignment and or god was. As it had to be in direct contact with the spirit.

[lonnarin]

Too bad one can't raise the corpses of enemy faith as zombies. That would so be perfect for Corathites, make the poor little toranite do a zombie dance in the middle of town square.

[Dezza]

Can the casting of Divine relation become a DC check instead of an instant result?

[Acacea]

I don't really see why it should be the Divine Relation that must be adjusted to fight against a DC at all times. I mean, you get a feeling from your god that someone is an enemy. Where is the struggle? It is not a hostile action, nor something someone can even feel being done, merely an ear cocked to one side. There seems no reason it should fail unless the enemy has taken specific steps to prevent himself from being detected ahead of time, you know?

[Filatus]

Well, are gods really bothered to look at an individual each time their clerics ask? This is the only thing that seems to me as odd. Because I imagine gods are not omnipotent and surely they do not have an opinion about every single individual in the world without even looking?

So why can't divine relation be the act of the priest in some manner bringing the subject to his/her god instead of lazily calling for an opinion?

[Gulnyr]

Originally Posted by Filatus

Well, are gods really bothered to look at an individual each time their clerics ask? This is the only thing that seems to me as odd. Because I imagine gods are not omnipotent and surely they do not have an opinion about every single individual in the world without even looking?

So why can't divine relation be the act of the priest in some manner bringing the subject to his/her god instead of lazily calling for an opinion?

Do the gods mind if their servants help their enemies or not?

If the gods care enough about who their Clerics assist that they will punish them for assisting enemies, then they had better have an opinion ready on everyone when the Cleric asks, else they have no case against the Cleric.

I don't think the gods are omnipotent, but faith in Layonara is a real and powerful force that they can detect. Any character with a name in the deity blank is faithful enough that it shows, and the gods should be able to sense it enough to know whether they like it or not. And, if they really care about who their servants help as we have been told, then they should be ready to say what they think to their Clerics.

[Dezza]

Originally Posted by Acacea

I don't really see why it should be the Divine Relation that must be adjusted to fight against a DC at all times. I mean, you get a feeling from your god that someone is an enemy. Where is the struggle? It is not a hostile action, nor something someone can even feel being done, merely an ear cocked to one side. There seems no reason it should fail unless the enemy has taken specific steps to prevent himself from being detected ahead of time, you know?

I suggested a DC check because Clerics starting out are still exploring their beliefs and sensing their gods power. As they grow more into their roles and learn to recognise their diety's power and voice they can cast greater spells.

If a level 1 cleric comes up against the level 15 Dread Priestess of Corath who takes great care to conceal who he/she is then why should a level 1 cleric of Toran be able to say haha your my enemy.. I will notify everyone in my faith about you and they will hunt you down.... This just does not make any sense to me and the divine check ability gives them this what I regard as a terrific power to use at the lower levels..

If it was a DC check (maybe opposed level+concentration rolls) the level 1 cleric would have to be lucky enough (good roll) to focus his mind long enough to tell if the person was an enemy or not. Whereas the level 15 would more than likely be able to tell right away if the young upstart Toranite was their enemy.

This would just reflect the difference in the divine ability through levels.

[Gulnyr]

Originally Posted by Dezza

I suggested a DC check because Clerics starting out are still exploring their beliefs and sensing their gods power. As they grow more into their roles and learn to recognise their diety's power and voice they can cast greater spells.

...

This would just reflect the difference in the divine ability through levels.

I'm not sure level should mean anything. You are suggesting that level determines strength of faith, which isn't necessarily true. NPCs in the temples are surely very faithful and likely have some nice titles fitting important positions within their churches, but it has been said before that not necessarily all of them can raise the dead, which any mid-level PC Cleric can do.

More available and more powerful spells are not always a measure of faith. Would a pure Cleric of Branderback automatically be more faithful than a Cleric/Rogue, or a pure Cleric of Ilsare more faithful than a Cleric/Bard, or a pure Cleric of Vorax more faithful than a Cleric/Fighter, just because the pure Cleric would have more spells available at the same character level?

I don't think your example of how it could work is bad, but I do think equating level to strength of faith is the wrong way to go.

[Dezza]

Originally Posted by Gulnyr

I don't think your example of how it could work is bad, but I do think equating level to strength of faith is the wrong way to go.

heh I used that because no matter how much we would love for it to be a perfect and real based setting nwn is what it is and is mechanics based. How can you equate natural empathy through mechanic rolls..you cant. I agree a pious lay person of a faith (assume level 0 commoner) may very well be able to feel that someone is just not...a nice person but on the other scheme of things this is their 'personal' feelings. Clerics on the other hand have this ability (again game mechanics) to simulate their ability to ask their god if they should or should not tend to someone. Mind you how many times do people use this and still ignore the RP aspect of it and go ahead and work with those people anyway. So maybe this is all a moot point.

In essence I just question the power of a cleric new to the faith, still learning what these feelings they are feeling actually mean is able to walk up to anyone and without any chance of misinterpreting their 'feelings' can tell if that person is an enemy. Especially of said person has been around for a very long time and spent a lot of time and effort to conceal their true identity. It just does not seem quite fair.

[Gulnyr]

I was considering this topic this morning from a slightly different perspective, and I don't think opposing DCs are a good idea.

I understand a simple solution is an ideal solution, but it can't be so simple it breaks the accepted reality of the game world, y'know? Opposed checks would mean the one hiding his faith is hiding it specifically from the Cleric standing near him. The Cleric, though, isn't looking to the one hiding his faith, but to his own god for answers; he isn't examining the hider but praying to his god. It would need to be opposed checks between the one hiding his faith and a god, since the god is the one doing the examining.

The Cleric is praying when he asks for that check. All Cleric spells are prayers (and yes, I know Divine Relation isn't supposed to register as a spell, but it still is mechanically):

Originally Posted by Dorganath

And let's also be clear of another thing: the "spells" that clerics cast are the result of prayers. They ask, and their respective deities provide. Clerics don't cast spells directly like other casters.

Even though Divine Relation is a prayer we are supposed to pretend we don't see cast in-game, it is still a prayer, just a really private one. I would argue that it is the weakest prayer a Cleric has available; the Cleric asks his god for information and gets a single, vague word in response. It is nowhere near the power of other prayers that ask for healing or raising the dead or smiting enemies with lightning and holy fire, none of which ever fail to be answered. Yet somehow, there are arguments being presented that this weakest of all prayers should be susceptible to failure, that the gods will simply not bother to give their Clerics a vague notion now and then though they will still instantly grant their power and answer any other prayer of greater magnitude.

It's silly when you look at it like that. Unless Clerics need to make checks to have any prayer work, then they should not need it for the simplest prayer of all.

If there is to be any solution before the MMO, then it probably needs to be something on the side of the character trying to hide his faith, but I don't have any suggestions on how that could work right now. I would say it shouldn't be based on a skill since that would leave higher level characters who had not invested in that skill (but would have had they known) from participating in hiding their faith the way they might like. This one kind of seems like it goes in the "it's too late for that" category.

Alternatively, Divine Relation could be changed so that it has different requirements and/or effects, one of which could be failure to receive an answer. In that case, though, I would recommend making it more informative and less vague - the Cleric would get a god's name rather than just a word describing the relation of the two gods. I don't really like the idea that the simplest prayers can fail to be answered when columns of fire never are, but if the amount of information given can balance the possible failure, y'know, alright. I can imagine people playing certain characters might feel better about "enemy" than "Corathite" showing up on Clerics' radars, though.

[Nehetsrev]

Another option that hasn't been brought up, that I think could work to help those following evil dieties hide better would be to include Alignment as part of the reading. For example, a lawful good diety might wish their blessings withheld from anyone of diametricly oposed alignment, as well as those who just happen to follow the dieties whom are his/her enemies.

So, let's say the 'feeling' the cleric of Rofirein, for example, gets from his/her god holds to the same five degrees based on alignment as it does for faith. Our example cleric uses divine relation on both a follower of Mist and a lawful evil character not tied to any faith, in either case the 'Enemy' result or 'feeling' is received from Rofirein. The cleric then can be suspicious, but since being lawful evil isn't a crime he/she can't really choose to do anything except withold the blessings of Rofirein from both persons.

Hmm....don't know if I can explain better, but let's say depending on how close/differing in alignment someone is from the alignment of the cleric's god they gain/lose points on the Allied/Enemy scale. So in our example maybe our lawful evil but otherwise not affiliated character gets points in Rofirein's eyes for being lawful, but loses lots more points for being evil, and a few points for not being one of Rofirein's own faithful. Meanwhile the chaotic good character who follows Mist is seen as just as much of an enemy (or even more) for being a follower of Mist, regardless of the fact that they are good aligned. Because they follow Mist, an enemy of Rofirein, that supercedes any points toward friendly they might've gotten with Rofirein from their good alignment. Shoot, as far as reactions towards those with no faith goes, a good god would be more willing to overlook the fact someone isn't one of their followers, while a nuetral god might be a little more selfish, and an evil god would in most cases rather their faithful help only those of their own faith, so different point values could be used for that as well dependent on the diety in question.

*shrugs* Anyway, it's an idea. I do wish every cleric/paladin would make a strong point to check via Divine Relation though whether or not they should be using their blessings upon individuals, especially complete strangers they've only just met in passing. Either that, or perhaps it should be simply made mechanicly impossible to use their prayers (spells) to benefit those who are considered unfriendly or enemies by their gods. They could get a bit of text that said something like, "Your Prayer failed because your god refuses to help X." Where X is either a specific person for prayers that have a single target, or "someone that would have been included in the effect of the prayer" for prayers that affect an area or all in the party.

[Acacea]

On alignment, it seems to have been said a few times that gods look to their allies for aid and to aid, not necessarily those of same alignment...if they look kindlier on someone for being close to their alignment, they rate higher on the friend/enemy scale. If they don't, something about them was so bad that it canceled out the good they shared. Sometimes those of same alignment can be just as dangerous to what they protect. It's also been brought up that the god does not force something not to be used on someone, but that the use should be desperate. It just kind of seems like adding alignment calculations into it would actually make it even more complicated and difficult for evil characters...and then more complicated again because going completely away from D&D makes it unlikely that the alignments as we know them will exist.

In addition, Rofirein now has LE clerics to go with his LG paladins. Make what you will of a god that entertains both paladins and evil clerics...

Regarding DCs, I can't help but think that is backwards, regardless of faith growing or not. If Dread Priestess Chanda wishes to hide her faith, then she should have to actually perform an action to do so, just like someone wishing to go undetected must use disguises and stealth, not change their T-shirt, put on a hood and cry when someone recognizes them. Indeed, saying that they should be harder detect the more powerful in the faith they are actually seems backwards as well - small time beginners might register as a blip on the radar, where your level 40 destroyers and avatars of Corath are going to draw some serious attention. How do you even begin to hide that kind of dark power? Why should you, at the top of a CE deity's faith? Should you be blending in? In my opinion, no, but that's a different topic. I do think that those powerful cleric's would be trickier if they could mask the divine links of their lackeys and subordinates to go out and do their bidding, though.

So it just seems like a priest of an evil deity should actually have to perform some action or prayer to slip unnoticed, not rely on being a higher level without using that power to do anything to hide itself. Listening has been said to be a passive, undetectable action...hiding from listening is different, right?

[Leanthar]

"....If Dread Priestess Chanda wishes to hide her faith, then she should have to actually perform an action to do so, just like someone wishing to go undetected must use disguises and stealth, not change their T-shirt, put on a hood and cry when someone recognizes them. Indeed, saying that they should be harder detect the more powerful in the faith they are actually seems backwards as well - small time beginners might register as a blip on the radar, where your level 40 destroyers and avatars of Corath are going to draw some serious attention. How do you even begin to hide that kind of dark power? Why should you, at the top of a CE deity's faith? Should you be blending in? In my opinion, no, but that's a different topic...."

100% agree on all points. I am not saying what we can (or will) do on this topic but on those points I totally agree. Putting this in code is something entirely different though.