just wondering about something

[bobby1361]

If the MMO stand alone layo fails/turns into something like WoW will we be returning to nwn?

[orth]

Bit of a confusing combination there "fail/turn into something like wow"

So it's 2010, Layonara is a huge financial success like WoW but not going in the direction we like? So lets cut off all the income and return to nwn instead? Wouldn't we instead make sure we get it in the direction we want?

I'm not sure what you define as failure, but if we were to get everything wrong and not appeal to anyone then I suspect it would be at that point that supporting a volunteer effort, asking for donations and emptying our own pockets again wouldn't be on the top of our list.

[bobby1361]

by WoW i mean, no roleplay, just go kill stab and kill some more.Will you keep just on that layo, or would you return to nwn layo aswell is what I'm asking.

[Dorganath]

Role-play has been known to break out on WoW...I've even heard some good things about it, but it's all a matter of finding it.

As for whether or not we'll go back to NWN, I think orth mostly answered this. We are striving to make a game that encourages RP. Clearly, not everyone who plays MMOs is terribly interested in that, but that doesn't mean there won't be any. In any case, reverting to NWN after a "failure" would probably not be high on our priority list, given the time and monetary expense involved.

That said, your question seems to assume that we'll release the game and then sit back and wait. This really would not be true. For example, if we see that we need to encourage RP in more ways, then we'll work at improving the game rather than throwing up our hands and deciding it's a failure. This can come through developing new systems, new content and so on. Even WoW does this.

The game won't be just some release-and-forget thing. I'd expect it to be much like NWN is now, with continual updates and improvements.

[bobby1361]

ok then, but is there any chance layo could possibly return to nwn incase of the shelf game being eaten by hack and slashers not interested in rp?

Keep the layo that the hack and slashers enjoy, but let the people who enjoy roleplay return to nwn layo.

[darkstorme]

While I can't claim to speak for the dev team, I can't see why that would happen. The NWN Layo has been (and will likely continue to be for its lifetime) a financial drain, and a system that is tricky to maintain.

The MMO is designed, as I understand it, to promote positive, not negative, cash flow, and to provide a whole new framework for the world of Layonara, to boot.

Additionally, if those people who enjoy RP, those that currently populate the world of Layonara, are playing the new MMO... then you have a core group of people who all enjoy RP - playing the new MMO. You hardly need a separate game to join up with these people. From what I understand of World of Warcraft, while there are those who don't RP well (or at all), they can easily be ignored by those who DO.

In answer to your repeated question, though, I'll summarize what Dorg and Orth have said. Will Layonara return to NWN? Probably not. There's no good reason why it would.

Edit: Speaking of finances - remember, it's Donate Your Level Weekend! Help contribute to keep the NWN server alive!

[Acacea]

(Edit - defeated by darkstorme and the "Fingers never stop typing" disease!)

I really think the reason this is going to a commercial venture needs to be better understood in order to understand the responses to your question - because it was answered the first time.

Yeah, for some becoming like WoW would be sucky, because "RP server" in most MMORPGs means "there are occasionally sporadic bursts of roleplay here and there." But we're not leaving NWN and going commercial because hey wouldn't it be cool if they poured even more time and money into Layo without getting a fraction back? Nor even "isn't it going to be great to provide all our players with new homes and even shinier things?" Because our players don't pay. While I sure they would love to carry over a strong RP base (I would think that perhaps steps should even be taken to give the current ones a 'try' at it in order to encourage it and set the stage for other incomers), really they're not going to have a clue how many people are going to migrate until it happens. How many have played here? How many have donated?

For one reason or another, most people cannot or refuse to pay for what is offered free. There are lots of reasons, and not just freeloading. We are seriously lucky that the servers are running right NOW. They could have been shut down a long time ago because preparing for a commercial game requires a lot of investment in time and money... and putting time (tons of administration) and money (server costs) into volunteer work is not top priority when everyone is also working day jobs.

This isn't about just making a happy new home for all of us, as much as they would like for everyone to migrate. They are also people that have all at one point or another put a lot of work and love into a project and then got the hope that maybe with even more work and more time they might someday be able to make a living off doing what they love, which is what everyone really really wants to do and few really ever get the chance. Even if it turned out to be a hack and slash server (which is as dependent on the players as anything else), becoming a commercial success at it means you can provide all the tools and encouragement possibly available to encourage RP... and you're still in the business. All they can do is provide the framework and advertise in the right places - it's always going to be the players that decide what is populating it.

I think becoming a commercially giant success with less RP is much less a worry for them than fearing they will cater to only a very small niche that will not attract enough people willing to pay to even come close to making up for the investment.

I don't want NWN to go away. I love NWN. I don't think anyone has even begun to bleed the game of everything it could have done. But even without the commercial thing, it was not staying. The NWN2 migration was in the planning before that changed - the playerbase moves on, the tools become obsolete, etc. But running two separate games just isn't going to work. Despite all the maybes and probablies, let's just be honest - the NWN server is not going to continue forever. It might bleed over into the launch and carry on a time, but I think we can probably be pretty confident that if they are giving ita good try for a year or more and it doesn't work, they aren't going to revert back to the now-even-older NWN to put their time and money back into it.

All of that rambled and said, I think orth's response might seem as though the stance bobby's question originated from is not a valid source of uncertainty for most of the people around and make the people that share the sentiment even more nervous about the ultimate goal of it. We've all played other games, new and old, and we all stick to this old thing because we find something here that does not exist in the other games...and it is that very vague and intangible thing that has always been more easily found in small labors of love than as paying customers; not because of the money but because of all the baggage that comes with it and the target audiences. So most of your players here are going to be biting their nails and just hoping and praying that whatever it is that makes Layo for them (the people) survives the move, in order to keep the niche audience and make it a financially feasible option for those that put the work into it. It is not unnatural for someone to have the hope that maybe if it's not we could keep the old toys, too?

But yeah, I think everyone should just think about it very carefully and instead of freaking out about it, really make it a point to migrate when the time comes and give it a good try for some time, even if it isn't liked at first... stick with it. This thing is clunky and old but the players make it a fun place to play and the people who bother sticking around to dev work for those who stick around as players. It will most likely be pretty rocky on first release and whether or not they want or expect everyone, the ability to start out with a base of people devoted to preserving what they found here should not be underestimated. They make the framework, all we have to do is be there. There will most likely be beta-hoppers wanting the trials and so forth going in and out if there are any, and people that don't know anything at all about roleplaying. But we have them here, too, in smaller, proportionate numbers. We just talk about helping out people and showing them what to do, so... make it happen :P

[Eight-Bit]

The best way to encourage RP is to ask people what they need to RP. If there are some essential elements missing, then essential RP goes unRPed. (made up a word!)

I think the best thing for the New MMO in terms of RP is avoiding the Hlint-Centered feel of V2 and before. Its hard to RP in a crowd and about the same amount of conversation can happen in a crowded MMO area as in a rock concert. Multiple and meaningful towns should be able to host any assortment of players.

I remember Star Wars Galaxies, before it went to die in SOE's Home for Senile MMORPGs, had you go from town to town doing dungeons. This not only gets people out and around, but because certain dungeons are near certain towns, and the dungeons are focused on specific level groups, people tend to group up with their level. People can spread out and mob RP doesn't happen.

[Hellblazer]

Well for having plaid a few mmo's here is my suggestions.

There are some mmo's that offer the possibility to choose different "talk channels", general, group, rp, etc. And in this in essence you can also select which channels you want to see on the screen itself. If you un-select a channel you don't even see it on the main screen all you see is people going around. That in a way can help the people from the childish nonsense I have seen on other mmo's

What I find most intriguing about the idea is this and would probably help with the rp a bit more, is if you are going to keep the character submission. Daunting task at best, but I think it is the best way to show, and promote the fact that he mmo would be about rp first and far most.

Now as Acacea said so wonderfully, I think what would make that mmo a place that the players here would love and stick around, is if the things they are used to are there, but embellished. You have the possibility here to know directly from your future core of player base, what they loved, and disliked, and the wonderful tool of the polls. It would be a good thing that you survey them to see what they loved and would loved to see implemented in the next generation of the game.

This way you don't only make something new, but you ensure that what made it so great for the vast majority, will still be there when they hop the band wagon to the new mmo, and not only that, but they will feel an even greater attachment to the new "thing" because they know that they will have been listened to and see that their opinions and wants were drafted up in the new mmo.

[Dorganath]

Of course our intent is to use what we've learned in NWN to make the new game, both in terms of what kinds of systems work as well as what kinds of features and things were most liked/used/appreciated by the player base. As with NWN, suggestions are of course welcome and may even be implemented (if not already planned).

However, the one statement I'll make here is that we simply cannot design and build a game based on polls. There's all sorts of sayings that go along with this...like "too many cooks" and such...my favorite being "A camel is a horse that was designed by committee."

Anyway, it is in fact our goal to encourage RP as much as possible in the new game. Clearly an MMO introduces other dynamics, but this is something we are keeping in mind at every step.

[Hellblazer]

Originally Posted by Dorganath

There's all sorts of sayings that go along with this...like "too many cooks" and such...my favorite being "A camel is a horse that was designed by committee."

hehe yeah i fully understand that but it still can give you a pretty good idea of what system was truly enjoyed by the player base.

what I meant was mostly, to see which system were loved the most, giving you an indication of which to prioritize and which could be simply dropped. But i guess every one has different ways of doing things. My fellow sound tech might not have the exact way to go around mixing a song, but the end result is often as good.