MMO and character approvals

[jrizz]

Sorry if this has already come up.

I feel that the CA process needs to stay in some form. I think lowering the barrier to entry by allowing (legal) PCs to start with no approval or bio but then require one to go beyond some point is a good way to go. This will get people "bought in".

[Marswipp]

[rough, speculative idea]
basic fighter/bowman/spell caster (none to few requirements)
priest/priestess (the player must have read and understand the requirements for the deity of choice)
druid (the player must have read and understand the requirements)
most seriously complex builds (complete character introduction)
[/rough, speculative idea]

[jrizz]

Yeah I think some kind of structure of this kind is good where the more complex the PC the more is needed. Ranging from nothing needed to a CA.

[Marswipp]

I feel like elaborating on the rough outline I thought up...

Basic fighters and archers may have little to no use for magic.

The basic fighters: Halberdiers, pikemen, spearmen, swordsmen, axemen, martial artists (That's most of them, right?)

The basic archers: bowmen and crossbowmen

The basic spell casters: wizards and sorcerers

[EdTheKet]

Originally Posted by Marswipp

I feel like elaborating on the rough outline I thought up...

Basic fighters and archers may have little to no use for magic.

The basic fighters: Halberdiers, pikemen, spearmen, swordsmen, axemen, martial artists (That's most of them, right?)

The basic archers: bowmen and crossbowmen

The basic spell casters: wizards and sorcerers

Please don't forget that we're skill based, not class based

[Marswipp]

I'm not forgetting. I'm providing the terms for soldiers trained with specific weapons. (Excluding the magic users)

[Thak]

I think the concern some share is the possible negligence towards rp without the char apps in place.
But are char apps needed to have an rp environment? In the NWN version, possibly because everyone is on the same shard.
In the MMO there will be a very clear divide between the RP shard and the more lenient open one. To put diffrent types of gamer mentality into each environment they feel more comfortable with.

The problem with char apps in the skill based system is who has to be approved? Everyone that wants to get skill points in spellpraying for instance? Checking every player what kind of skills he's improving after being approved would be very tough. You can learn almost any base skill at any time.

Just my personal thoughts on the subject anywho.

In any case, Layonara is about role playing and we will make every effort for people to enjoy their time rp-ing.

[Eight-Bit]

Just going to put two cents in here...

...actually I might keep them in this case.

My point is people are not going to pay money to go through anything that even resembles the current character approval process. There is a whole lexicon of information that is necessary to know if you do not want to be Johnny Farmboy.

Don't even forget the logistical ramifications of having to go over every approval. There are going to need to be people reading these applications to ensure that they are valid, while the applicants wait to play the game they're playing for. People who are going to have to know everything there is to being a character on Layonara. Heck, I did it for a few weeks before I felt like I was taking another English course that semester. I'm not trying to be negative, in fact I am being reasonable. When you factor in money into any equation, people are going to want a share.

If there are character applications (of any kind) I doubt people will be so willing to part with their money. That is the cost of going so public like this. Layonara, as a small-time PW could maintain the level of control that was necessary to keep things in line.

[ycleption]

I'm sure you're right, that it will be difficult to sustain a large population and retain the same kind of scrutiny we have now for character approvers.
For many of us, however, the character approval process is a big part of why we came to this server. It's the first level of screening, to let players know what they are getting in to. This isn't an elitist "keeping the undesirables out" attitude, it's a way to impress on potential players the level of RP that is expected on Layonara, and giving them the tools to be able to do that. Someone who can't answer where they came from, whether they have living parents or siblings, who thinks that they can claim they have slain scores of dragons, will never be able to RP, and may in fact become more discouraged than they would have been by the approval process in the first place.

Some kinds of compromise are certainly possible, as it's been suggested above, allowing a fast track entry for those who want to skip the approval process, but limiting them to only a few skill lines, and making it very clear to them what will be allowed as far as what they can claim for their character. If even that is considered too restrictive, maybe just offering character approval as an optional service. While not required to get a character in play, those players who wanted to ensure their story is consistent with lore and who want help fleshing out a personality could have a character approved (I know I'd still want the approvers to go over my backstory, even if it wasn't required)... maybe some sort of ooc mark could be shown on approved characters, to give them a sort of cache, and provide an incentive for the approval process.

I think many of us have a legitimate fear that this could become another "mmo where rp occasionally breaks out," and that the lack of the approval process could have a detrimental effect on the community here. I've stated, and I intend to do everything I can to cough up the cash to be able to play the mmo when it comes out, but I will have a harder time justifying paying if the RP starts suffering as the result of unapproved characters over-running the game.

[Skywatcher]

Another option might be to have multiple servers that all emulate the Layonara world environment and have certain servers have the requirement that you have an approved character. Sort of like how Layo is a NWN persistent world you could have subsets of the Layo servers that require more review to get access to. These servers could be the ones that have more affect on making world changes so that would encourage people who really want to make a difference to keep tight RP and go through more wickets while others who just want to hack and slash could still enjoy the environment and the world would still change around them so they would be a part of it but just not being the primary movers of world events. If the infrastructure was there you could even have servers dedicated to training new players on RP and helping them move from the average Joe servers to the Elite or Epic servers if you will. Just some thoughts that occurred to me as I was thinking of how to balance people getting fun for their money but stilll encouraging RP and adherance to the standards that have made Layo great.

EDIT: You could also save the GMs a lot of trouble enforcing rules and such if you had some servers that were not GM'd at all and some that were but to get access to GM time you would have to go through some screening. Say if you wanted a CDQ you would have to request it and meet certain requirements like having an approved character bio and such. Players could use the "non GM'd" servers for testing concepts and raw hack and slash but to get a "real" character in the world you would have to start at level one with an approved bio on one of the supervised servers with higher standards.

[miltonyorkcastle]

Maintaining the various servers is what I'm worried about. The cost, essentially.

But I would really prefer exactly what Skywatcher is suggesting. Say, 70% of server space for the general populace who pays and just wants to explore/hackandslash, with no approval process or GM questing of any kind, and very little GM monitoring. The other 30% is reserved for those few who are willing to possibly pay a monetary fee and still go through all the approval processes and general RP req's we currently maintain. The advantage then would be the GM run quests and the ability to have a tangible affect on the world (not to mention the generally huge, open-ended possibilities of an RP environment).

For some reason I kind of think the MMO team has already mentioned implementing something like this, but to what extent, perhaps, is the question.

[orth]

Originally Posted by miltonyorkcastle

Maintaining the various servers is what I'm worried about. The cost, essentially.

But I would really prefer exactly what Skywatcher is suggesting. Say, 70% of server space for the general populace who pays and just wants to explore/hackandslash, with no approval process or GM questing of any kind, and very little GM monitoring. The other 30% is reserved for those few who are willing to possibly pay a monetary fee and still go through all the approval processes and general RP req's we currently maintain. The advantage then would be the GM run quests and the ability to have a tangible affect on the world (not to mention the generally huge, open-ended possibilities of an RP environment).

For some reason I kind of think the MMO team has already mentioned implementing something like this, but to what extent, perhaps, is the question.

This is the direction we're heading. One world where anything goes, not as monitored, free for all. One world where roleplay is center stage. Your characters must be approved, they must fit the lore of the world. Roleplay will be actively monitored, quests will be ran much more often on center stage then on the free for all.

Anything that happens on Layonara 'Prime' will effect the free for all shard. For example, some players on Prime do a quest that caves in a copper mine. We update and the players on the free for all are no longer able to get to the copper.

This will encourage the drive to get your player accepted to center stage, to be able to make differences and be the one responsible for the world changes. Understanding your actions have an impact on the state of the world.

This is our intentions, but as you immediately stated, costs are our concern and if we can't sustain both servers we'll have to find a happy middle ground.

--

On Eight Bit's point, I really don't understand why a lot of folks think just because you pay for something you should get things exactly as you want and with no work whatsoever. Try to get membership at a country club, its more then just forking over the money.

[Falonthas]

just like in the clubs as well

we have a daily cover anyone can come in pay the cover and enjoy every part of the club thats a pay as you go area

now when they ask about a skybox or balcony area they are told those are for card holders only and their are various packages to be a cardholder

not that the package levels would apply but its the same concept
everyone can run about downstairs and watch the show

but the best seats are above with an unimpeded view of the stage

[miasma_hemlock]

This kind of worries me. I always thought I was a decent enough roleplayer, but the character approval process just kills me. It kills my creativity, because I know if I take any chances besides the most obvious choices for her story it will raise red flags. Even now I have an idea for a halfling cleric I'd love to be playing here but I just can't bring myself to spend an afternoon writing her back story, then hoping for approval. So I just lurk in the forums instead. I can't imagine I'm the only person who would be turned off by not only having to go through and approval process, but paying for the privelege.

The thing is of course most people playing here now would like character approvals, but really, isn't that a chicken and egg thing in some ways? As in no one who wouldn't go for an approval process like this would be here, because they've already passed on Layonara. I know I've tried to get a few real life friends to play and they've all said forget it and "why should I go through that", and these are other improv actress/renaissance faire freaks like me who may have been a lot of fun here. I resisted too, it's only because an old boyfriend was a player here who insisted that I give it a try that I got hooked (and to be honest he wrote my original character application..!)

I would imagine there's lots of others who don't come from a tabletop D&D environment like so many people here seem to who are turned off by the paperwork. And being exclusionary and creating a private club environment works for a free server with limited capacity like this, but I don't know how far it can really scale up. As excited as I am to play the next version of Layonara I don't even know if I would want to pay if the approval and CDQ processes are like they are now.

I don't know, I really think peer pressure might be enough, as well as guilds and religions and any other in game organizations having rules and requirements for their members, and other in-game things that serve to flesh out the world, bring people together in groups and set high standards. Anyway it's not like all of World of Warcraft is going to immediately rush over who you open your doors... Or will they?

[Pen N Popper]

I personally find the approval process a bit of an annoyance. People that have been here for a while know how it works: Submit your PC concept but stick to the middle-of-the-road. Why rock the boat right out of the docks, eh?

Once ingame, no one gives a rat's behind what you submitted for your PC. Do you play well with others? Yes, great! Do you make life entertaining for others? Yes, great! Does your PC have some weird stigmata on his left toenail that might be dragon induced? Sure, sure, whatever!

All that said, I know I would have brought some non-LORE-spur-of-the-moment obscenities into the world. Once your ingame, though, things are what they are. Whether I had the common sense to avoid mentioning these quirks in my bio or not, creative people play the way they play.

I, for one, am curious to see what transpires.

[Dorganath]

The current approval process is in place for a reason. That reason is not to stifle creativity, but simply to make sure the character fits into the world. Beyond that, there is a very large amount of latitude. Your character bio is not the absolute "gospel" by which all future character actions must be made, but rather the foundation for who your character is at the time he/she is created. Naturally, like real-life, one's character can grow and expand beyond their more humble beginnings. We expect and encourage this.

We do, however, seek to avoid people who claim to be fallen celestials, once the Right Hand of ((insert deity here)), or any number of other fantastic, interesting and completely unsupported character concepts. We also want to avoid Neutral Evil Cleric/Assassins of Toran who adopts and raises stray puppies to aid the blind (extreme example, but you get my point). Part, in my opinion, of what has always been nice about Layonara is that most people start out with humble beginnings, and then discover and grow into something much greater.

In any case, what about the MMO?

Clearly, the MMO is a different animal. Clearly, if we wish to appeal to a much larger market, then having a stringent CA process for all characters will make absolutely no economic sense whatsoever. Really, having any sort of CA process for the mass-market doesn't make much sense at all. That said, we will still have a focus on RP. The general plans at this time were outlined above by orth, and if you read them, you might get a sense of where we're going. We recognize that a lot of the people who want to play here may not wish to RP, and those who do may not wish to really participate in the plot of the world. That's fine, and the world will change around both, just like the real world changes around you and me, even though our individual influence is arguably negligible outside of our own personal circles of friends and family.

So rather than debate what is or is not good about our current process, let's keep an open mind about what the team is cooking up for the future.