Divine Favor

[Kirbiana]

I apologize if this came up before, but in a quick glance through the threads I didn't see it. I think the current temple donations idea is a great way to soak money and excess craftables out of the economy, but for a larger community (especially on the non-RP shard), it might be nice if you actually could get personal, tangible benefits for donating to your faith. Specifically, that might be a way to connect the "Spell-praying" skills to a character's 'work' as a member of a faith, as measured by the offerings given to your deity. The offerings could be specific quest-type items or general donations or gold .... whatever fits the new MMO best.

One possible way to do this (I'm sure there are many) would be to create something I'll call divine favor that could come in a whole range of ranks or levels. A higher rank wouldn't mean you were actually a higher functionary of the deity (that would all be handled through RP), but would give you a tangible benefit that relates to your divine gifts. That could translate into different things for different deities: better or more healing spells for Aeridinites, better luck crafting gems for Berylites, better or more battle spells for Voraxians, etc.

Folks might also get a kick out of having an in-game way to check and show off their ranks. Perhaps a book in each temple that lists the "Ranks of the Faithful" and had dynamic updates to show where folks stood in their quest to advance in faith?

[Honora]

It's a nice idea, but it does feel a little like medieval papal absolution - by which I mean it's an expression of the favor of the church/god(dess) tied to money. However, presumably the god (let's use Aeridin) knows if his follower is out grinding 24/7 and killing hundreds of creatures a day. By doing that PC XX has tones of items and money he can donate, but he got it by breaking church law left and right . So in my opinion tracking donations is a nice idea, but to reward someone for them would have to be taken into account with their activity in game.

Just my 2cp!

[Eight-Bit]

It has always been my understanding that donating to a Church is one of the ways someone thanks God X for being God X and blessing us with their Heavenly (or infernal) powers. So really, before the idea of benefits from donations come up, we need to ask if the very presence of the God is the benefit we receive.

[Kirbiana]

Inside our RP'd world, of course we should be donating to our deities simply because we are portraying faithful characters and we are all sharing the 'fictive reality' that our divine powers as clerics and paladins come from the gods of Layonara (rather than from the chunks of computer code that create our virtual reality.)

But what about the non-RP hack and slash shard? If all the skill lines (including spell-praying) are duplicated there, it would be nice if players had a way to earn not just generic XP to improve them as with other skills, but specific deity-related XP. I am thinking of the Guild Wars model where 'Sunspear' points must be earned through killing specified monsters/enemies in order for your 'Sunspear' skills to become more effective. This has no effect on any of your other skills or character levels; it's a separate track and gives players some additional in-game goals to strive for.

Of course, this may be much too difficult to code for, but since the 'spell-praying' skills seem to still be under development, I was just tossing some ideas out for the MMO team to bat around. However it's done, let me just say that as a dedicated clerical type, I would find it very satisfying to have some concrete way of seeing my dedication measured and reflected in the new world, even if that's just "Ooh! A shiny new leaf for my cloak!"

[Acacea]

I do agree that having church donation systems be something other than a gold sink is nice, but I don't think that it is limited to clerics (ie spellpraying investors), because there are many ways to be devout...and more importantly, it would be good to establish some perks and penalties to those wishing to be in service to a god, whether a cleric or not.

People that actively choose to walk the devout path in general will have a pretty hard time of it, with no real reward for their service save the cool roleplay that can come from arguments and occasionally traveling with a cleric that can raise them for free. However, there is also no real penalty, no real reason "not" to follow a deity, except that you can avoid the dogmatic drivel and avoid meeting enemy clerics that can't raise you at all. For anything meaningful you have to either be a cleric or be traveling with a cleric and thus feed off of their interaction Either that, or follow a rare god and be really, really lucky on a quest!

So having something more ... maybe not tangible, but at least more inclusive to all members of a faith if they are devout, including anything that comes of the tithing system, seems like it would both a) give more reason to be involved and supportive of a faith you have chosen, and b) give more reason to pick no deity at all rather than just filling in fields, as well as leaving the inactive and apathetic in the lip service category.

Also, to some degree I would agree with 8bit and Honora... I don't think that donating should necessarily equate to reward, at least not directly from deity... but it would be nice if there was a piety system in which tithing contributed. By performing acts of the faithful, one collects a certain amount for, say, stronger blessing effects on your person, or maybe even as the original poster suggested, a sort of divine favor or "Prayer" ability that all faithful have, but only the devout can ever make use of. Rather than being instantly jumped on by DMs for buddying up with an enemy, you could simply be slowly losing those 'piety points,' whether in great or small numbers. At one point you could even fall from grace because of it, or in the case of the non-divine characters, have the deity quietly dropped from the field. If a cleric lost his deity, they would not be able to cast spells anymore. DMs that witness acts of the faithful (or unfaithful as the case may be) could add or remove such points manually.

Other than being included in the ways to be considered devout (a minor one, even, as after all, heretics and murderers can donate to a Toranite church) it seems that donations could just determine what services a particular temple could provide. After x amount of donations, they could offer better healing potions for sale, or faith based trinkets to the faithful appropriate to the deity. Housing for paladins (in the sense of a small room for sleep and prayer with a single chest), that sort of thing. In addition, if you have contributed a great deal to the church, there should be no problem in getting a blessing or remove disease for free every now and then if you don't have the funds. Money doesn't equate to faith, but it would be cool to have it actually help your temples. I think I'm kind of rambling, but you get me...perks and penalties, the latter of which I haven't delved much into but should be present. From those given much, much is expected, right?

[lonnarin]

I'd like to see the landscape speckled with shrines to the gods all over where people can pray for temporary blessing benefits akin to those deadra shrines in Oblivion. Perhaps one could sacrifice gold and items to them if they're good gods, and lure monsters to them for bloody evil sacrifice, ritually scar oneself for Grand, leave a gemstone for Beryl, leave crafted works for Dorand, wine for Xeen, sing to Ilsare (spellsinging check) etc... Dependant on the type of god, a different kind of sacrifice other than gold could be required, and the type of blessing could vary from religion to religion. Ilsare might grant bonuses to ranged weapons and spellsinging, Corath for darkweaving, Pyrtechon for fire based spells, Shadon for sneaking skills, AC from Toran, AB from Vorax, etc.

If the shrines and blessings of the gods kept in theme with the type of god they were, you'd see many players choose gods according to the type of skills they themselves venerate. So naturally archers would be ilsarians and Folianites, fighters would be Toranites and Voraxians, rogues would choose Branderback and Shadon, and so on. Given the skill-based system, one could really go wild with the archetypes of priests, whereas in Bioware we always had to diminish ourselves a bit in crossclassing. A god who venerates a certain type of tactic would give bonuses to it specifically rather than a generic attack bonus... for example, why would Aeriden bless anybody with bonuses to attack other people? More likely he'd bless you with healing at his shrines.

For the shrines, the art department could go wild making the models in the rough image of the dieties. Corathite shrines would be black obellisks with skulls adorning them, Pyrtechite shrines to always have a lit brazier, Shadonite shrines hidden well in dark and tricky places, Katian shrines being more like actual trees with holy imagery carved into them, etc. Their locations could be dependant on the deomains of the god. Katian shrines only in heavily forrested woods, Corathite ones in graveyards and haunted battlefields, Aeridenite ones near rivers and lakes for the whole healing waters theme, Toranite one's near the cities, Caduz and berylite ones deep in caves, Dorandite shrines in the crafthall.

I think in this method, the presence of the gods would surely be felt, and what it means to serve a god would be totally individualized per each faith. Given that the system is skillbased and no two clerics are alike, we'd see them follow trends as to the types of skills they chose since those certain dieties would bolster them... so sneaky shadonite priests with sneak blesses, fiery-spewing Pyrtechite priests with their prayers of mayhem, Voraxian battlepriests who pray for more damage and the like. It would behoove a shadonite priest to make a sneaky character, because those are the blessings his god gives, and his skills are the ones that his god appreciates.

We could even script shrines to be consecratable/desecratable... so that enemy clerics stumbling upon heretic shrines can nullify them or cleanse them if another cleric had them nullified. Then the laymen who could pray to the shrines would have to seek their faith's preists out to help go on crusades against enemies or heal their own shrines so that the gods can channel their powers through them again. That would totally change what it meant to be a priest... not just a healer but also a champion of his religion's holy wars.

Plus I'm just a really big fan of consecrated and desecrated holy grounds, heheh. Undead could be held at bay if one fled to an Aeridenite shrine, Animals pacified at a Katian one, Undead Bolstered near a Corathite one. The physical area within and around the holy land could shift the stats of battle according to the god's preferences. The influence of gods should empower their followers and strike utter terror in the hearts of their enemies.

Now if there was only some way to measure the level of devotion one has to the god and make the blessings scale appropriately. A priest or paladin totally devoted to a faith would get more out of it than somebody more casually associated. I would like to see cross-faith praying to some extent however, people should be able to pray to their gods allies in certain cases. Those who try to pray at enemy altars could be cursed or smitten by lightning or divine fire, and those who pray to neutrally aligned gods would only get a very light blessing at best... though they should get some since the god wants to win them over and doesnt hate them necessarily.

Ideas off the top of my head for shrine blessings

Corath: Darkweaving bonus, undead created near shrine are bolstered and last longer
Pyrtechon: Character does extra fire damage in both spells and melee
Aeriden: Weakens undead near area, regenerates HP as you pray
Lucinda: Bonus to all magic skills, Regenerates mana as you pray
Goran: Boilsters constructs, equipment is temporarily improved or repaired
Grand: sends character into a blood frenzy and bonus dmg vs dwarves
Dorand: The only shrine which temporarily improves your craftskills
Vorax: Biggest bonus to attack and damage of all shrines
Toran: Biggest bonus of AC and DR of all shrines
Rofirien: bonus dmg and defense vs chaotic beings
Kitharian: highly noticeable bonus to running speed, regenerates fatigue as you pray, mostly near roads
Katia: animals docile to character unless attacked, even predators like wolves and dires (1 hour)
Folian: archery bonus out the wazoo (10 mins)
Shadon: sneaking bonus, shrines are always hidden from plain view
Mist: Dmg bonus and mana cost reduction for lightning based spells
Ilsare: archery and spellsinging bonus
Aragen: temp bonus to XP gained from being a fast and studious learner
Sulterio: Iconoclastic, bonus protection vs spells, especially divine ones
Grannoch: bonus to all spells involving fire, water, earth and wind
Branderback: bonus to sneak attack damage
Caduz: all weapons are blessed with poison
Vierdra'ira: bonus to darkweaving and summoning vermin
Azatta: lifts afflictions like disease and poison, can be prayed to by all without fear of being cursed
Deliar: bonus to mercantile haggling
Prunilla: bonus to harvesting herbal and crop CNR
Shindaleria: waterbreathing or waterwalking without spells and potions
Beryl: makes you invisible

And for curses if you happen to be of an enemy faith. One should also fear these if they try to desecrate the shrines

Corath: struck by negative energy, level drained (10 mins)
Pyrtechon: character spontaneously combusts
Aeriden: Cannot heal hp for short time (10 mins)
Lucinda: Prevented from casting ALL spells for 10 mins
Goran: your gear gets sabotaged
Grand: orc spirits are summoned to attack
Dorand: craftskills diminished for long time (24 hours)
Vorax: dwarven spirits are summoned to attack
Toran: smitten by a huge holy light
Rofirien: townguards become hostile for an hour
Kitharian: encumbered and runs painfully slower (10 mins)
Katia: animals go berserk and attack character on sight, even peaceful herbivores (1 hour)
Folian: marksmanship diminished greatly (10 mins)
Shadon: a big splash of green slime covers the character and you hear a snicker on the wind, not so much damaging as it is embarassing
Mist: lightning strikes character in the head
Ilsare: cant carry a tune, spellsinging impossible for 10 mins
Aragen: Can't learn/gain xp for 10 mins
Sulterio: spellpraying impossible for 10 mins
Grannoch: character is shrunken for 10 minutes with half physical stats
Branderback: strange halfling spirit picks your pocket
Caduz: poisoned
Vierdra'ira: attacked by swarm of vermin
Azatta: doesnt judge or smite, she just prays for you to be nicer
Deliar: negative mod to haggling for 1 hour
Prunilla: vines spring up and entangle you for 2 minutes
Shindaleria: cannot swim for 1 hour, character walks on river floor and drowns quickly
Beryl: gems in inventory shatter