NPCs and Bindstones

[Gulnyr]

Though nothing about the death system of the MMO has been reported to the public, it has been stated that the Soul Mother and bindstones are an integral part of Layonara, and the work done on the new cosmology and (so far mysterious) consequences of binding would seem to be wasted effort for the remaining months of the NWN incarnation if something else were going to be created anyway, so it seems they have a good chance of being carried over into the future of Layonara. That concept - that there will always be bindstones or something equivalent - is the basis for this question:

Can we expect to see bound NPCs?

I thought about this while considering all the renewed perma-death chatter. Our PCs are actually amazingly lucky to have so many chances, but none of the enemies we ever fight ever seem get another chance, unless they happen to rise as undead somethings later. No NPCs ever seem to be bound to the stones. I don't know what the consequences are so it's hard to judge, but if all these hero types and adventure-seekers have bound, how bad can it be? Why aren't there more villains who just never seem to stay dead? It would be a lot easier to accomplish those evil plans with a pocket full of round-trip tickets instead of a single one-way ticket, y'know?

I understand the concept of defeating the final baddie and bringing closure to the story arc, but, when NPCs are never bound, it seems to make the bindstones seem like an OOC mechanic for the benefit of the PCs more than an integrated part of the IC world that various people take advantage of.

I posted this here because it seems more important to the future than to the present.

[Dorganath]

But there are named foes in NWN that do keep coming back.

All the dragons, for instance.

[darkstorme]

And yet Ozlo takes one good shot and he's down for the count! There's no justice!

// Sorry, couldn't resist.

[Dorganath]

Either he was on his last...or he chose not to return to life.

[Leanthar]

"....And yet Ozlo takes one good shot and he's down for the count! There's no justice!

// Sorry, couldn't resist...."

Let me just ask this very simple question. How old was Ozlo? How long has he been around? What do you know of this critical character?

Most assuredly your character (or ANY character in NwN) would have not known him until his ancient ages. And that is an understatement.

Quit thinking in the "near term", that includes players and GM's.

The world is "young"...but goodness, your characters are much (MUCH) younger (no matter the race). You (the player) do not know everything that has occured, not by a long shot.

[darkstorme]

*sigh* And now I've gone and derailed the thread.

But yes, I realize. It was meant as a joke. Just 'cause Fisterion's got an "in" with a God, he gets to keep coming back, but poor Ozlo, after all he did!

Though, for an old dragon, he really had some fight in him.

Anyway, back to NPCs and their bindstones...

[Leanthar]

"...but poor Ozlo, after all he did!..."

Yep. I will say this was absolutely the sadest time in NwN that I have been faced with. It was a difficult situation for me to handle in an RP way... sucked. heh

[Gulnyr]

Originally Posted by Dorganath

But there are named foes in NWN that do keep coming back.

All the dragons, for instance.

First, let me go ahead and say that I understand maybe there's no answer to this question yet. I'm cool with that.

Now, to the quote, do you mean they are recurring characters that pop up in various quests, or that they die a lot more often than any of us are aware? If it's the former, that doesn't seem to be on topic, since death and bindstones have nothing to do with that. If it's the latter... I'm not really sure what to say about that. Or did you mean something else entirely?

My question is specifically about multiple chances to be killed and come back. There is a difference between meeting an NPC in various quests and meeting an NPC in various quests when you have personally seen that NPC die several times, y'know? And, as I said, from an certain OOC perspective, seeing only PCs make use of the bindstones can make it seem that they are not really an integral part of the world.

[Dorganath]

I meant more generically...

The dragons in NWN, like Fisteron, for example, will come back after being killed, if someone manages to do it.

Also generically speaking, NPCs have the same access to bindstones as PCs do. Some may choose to use them, some may not. As for how GMs use their NPCs on quests...for the most part, that's up to the GMs, but it's entirely possible for NPCs to have utilized bindstones. It's also possible that killing them on a quest resulted in their final strand loss.

[lonnarin]

I'm still waiting for Sinthar Bloodstone to file a Blood Well reimbursement request.

Now if only Milara lost all his silver vials to a bank chest bug and forgot to take screenshots. heheh.

But aye, sorry to slide off topic there. I wish there'd actually be MORE reoccuring villains in quests with bindstones. When you build up a good badguy, it's kind of a shame to see him vanish after a quest. But if they escape, the party feels like it wasn't a real victory. The best of both worlds is to let them rip him apart, and have him come back later to everyone's suprise that villains use bindstones like anybody else... heh. How many times have we read a copy of X-Men to see Magneto ripped in half, shot into the moon, lost his powers, etc, just to see him pop up again? Clones too! You can't deny the dubious fun in having stasis clones. That's what made fighting Manshoon in PnP Forgotten Realms so memorable.

[EdTheKet]

Can we expect to see bound NPCs?

The short answer: This is already possible in NWN.

I don't know what the consequences are so it's hard to judge, but if all these hero types and adventure-seekers have bound, how bad can it be?

Well, in yet to be released information, basically, binding can kill you, and you do not know up front if that will happen or not.

Of course, for Player Characters that is kind of a strange thing, because you would die permanently in your first minute of play (unless you chose not to bind, and go "hardcore" where your first death would be your last . If we implemented this for PCs, then the time spent on character submission and approval would be pointless for those unlucky enough to die upon initial binding.

So for convenience, no PCs die when they bind. NPCs need to decide if they want to take that chance.

[Acacea]

It does make a kind of sense that we have seen very few NPCs do it, though the whole dragons thing sounds a bit contrived to me, like they just got bound because they weren't tough enough to stand up to PC hunters... "they're bound, it comes back!" You know? I mean, there's nothing that proscribes anyone from making it so, it just seems...weird. Almost like it makes them too ordinary, does that make sense, or sound strange? That binding seems so ordinary? It just seems like they would have other ways, or something weird preventing them from being bound (lengthy discussion of the souls of dragons, fey, etc here), or that they just wouldn't stoop to using the same means or whittling away... As stated at least, I'd kind of rather they were just super powered to make it hard to kill, and had an escape hatch the big named ones could use to get away from groups, rather than binding...it just sounds weird, hehe. Except Fisterion, him I could see... though... would the flaming destruction of even Fisterion make Pyrtechon happy?

Anyway, I was going to say that it makes sense that few NPCs make use of it - remember they were inert until the war began and Ozlo started calling the 'heroes.' So if you held to the theory that what determined a Summoning was if the person could be bound or not, most of your random NPC population could not be bound - Ozlo was Calling all those that could, with maybe some missed here and there, but for the most part you end up with the big "PC" camp which is the Bound, and everybody else, who are not.

So Ozlo dies, there's nobody to point a claw at you saying "You can bind!" and people start finding their way over to try. I think there must be some kind of resonance or sign, despite the stated "gambling" because how many of the current generation of PCs would really have risked eternal death on the hopes they could bind, with no sign whatsoever? A priest of Aeridin for example, should be fairly certain and need to feel it was somehow okay from the god... not ala Moses and the ten commandments, but something you know? Not just "Hey! I'm going to risk death and my god's disfavor by trying to extend my life unnaturally with no idea if it will actually work!" So maybe there is just some kind of mental click, heh.

Anyway, so it hasn't been THAT long since Ozlo was separating out all those that could bind. It needs some time to catch on with villains, maybe. :P

I did see one NPC villain perm on a quest series, though. She'd been one for a very long time, rarely directly confronted but rumored to have died and lived at least a few times. Of course, I'm not sure she doesn't belong more in the undead theme...she wasn't undead, but she'd jacked herself up so much she wasn't really a normal organism, either. But I digress! I was just thinking about why it is probably quite appropriate to not have too many bound NPCs right now... some, maybe - maybe even now they are hunting kobolds - but not long established ones who have no reason to take the risk.

[Falonthas]

i know an npc who died and didnt return

he better not return after spending two years in a cell for his murder

[zenvidar]

I was thinking about a very realistic life involving npcs.

The man who asked you to get rid of the pack of kobolds terrorizing his farm dies the next day and never comes back. No other players can get this quest from him. His last thread was taken by the soul mother, or some other form of permanent death used in the future.

Procedural generation could be used to replace him with something simliar - maybe another farmer.

Or maybe he just gets logged somewhere as deceased. There could be a nice obituary script system that gets sent to gm/dev newspapers or player run newsprint shops, which would also notify the development team or gms of new opportunities to place fresh NPCs into the game.

The drawback to this would be an extremely realistic situation that could require more work. We're used to the same cotton, the same kobolds outside hempstead. The same woman walks around Hlint that used to when my first character arrived on layonara 40 years ago. At least, she moves, behaves and looks like her.

This would take more effort, but it would add an amazing in-character experience.

Those NPCs could die any day just like our characters and never return. Just like us, another character will enter the game who could be nothing like them or very similar and weave their own story into the world.