Dark and Gloomy

[Pseudonym]

Just a random thought.

As a long time PnP player, I have always liked campaigns and game worlds which were dark and brooding. Where the PCs as heroes were few and far between but the foes were powerful and numerous. PCs were little pockets of light barely flickering against an immense darkness of omnipresent evil.

It's part of the reason why I (and millions of others) went off the Forgotten Realms as a campaign setting .. there were just too many heroes. Too many stories where good had triumphed over the bad guy and cleaned up the world a little. In the end .. that world just got too clean. I suppose it is one of the perils of running a world for such a long time with so much lore, so many quests in so many areas. What is left for heroes to do? I think Acacea has addressed it elsewhere, you cannot keep making new ever more powerful enemies spring from nowhere.

What is my point? I really am rambling.

I want the new MMO to be dark.
I want to feel threatened.
I want the bad people to outnumber the good.
I want my character to always feel like the underdog.

I'm sure I want to see other things too, just thought i'd throw in this random thought before it flew away on the breeze that sweeps through my mind every few minutes.


PS. I also want poison to last longer on weapons.

[Leanthar]

"....I want the new MMO to be dark...."

Can't happen. Not for us at least. During our Dark Ages we went from 100 players being logged on (at peak) to just over 10 being logged on at peak. A few weeks after we left the Dark Ages we are back where we are now (which is still low). Point is, you can't make money in a real dark world....to a degree (and with our resources). I hear you and I agree, that is why I "tried" the Dark Ages, it was glaringly obvious on the outcome.

"....I want to feel threatened...."

So do I.

".....I want the bad people to outnumber the good....."

Not realistic (overly much), but I do understand where you are coming from. This would be nice that is for sure. See #1 above.

"....I want my character to always feel like the underdog...."

This is possible, but only to a certain degree. It is far more possible when it is a GM run world that is for sure. Tough one but one I would like to see as well (within reason).

[Gulnyr]

Originally Posted by Pseudonym

I want to feel threatened.

Do you now, and if not, why don't you?

Think of the world and how it's all but impossible to get from one town to another without passing through the territory of something that's trying to kill your character. That seems like a lot of bad guys and a lot of threat and danger to me (and it seems like the kingdoms are little more than lip service and paperwork, unless all these monsters are taxpaying citizens, but that's another topic altogether). Spawns always appear in the same places and are easy to avoid if you know the area, but that's NWN and not the MMO. And maybe a lot of the spawns near the more civilized areas aren't really much of a threat once you have a few levels under your belt, but doesn't that make sense? The area is civilized because all the really serious threats have been cleared out.

Now I'm rambling. I guess I'm curious if I've misunderstood what you mean by "threatened" and what could be done to make things more threatening.

[ycleption]

While obviously I can't speak to Pseud's intent on the matter, I think there's a difference between large scale, plot style being threatened, and being threatened on a personal level.
In the current Layo, my personal feeling is that the bad guys (Rael, Fisty, Milara, the dragon cult) are plenty threatening, and instill in most characters a healthy fear that their cities and countries are not all that secure.

On the other hand, players don't fear that they're going to be ambushed while traveling on the road, beset by pirates while sailing, or detained for questioning while crafting in Prantz.

The second is the type of feeling threatened that I personally would like to see more of.

[Acacea]

Not to cause trouble, but the "Layonara Dark Age" is totally not even remotely applicable. The NWN world was not dark. No one suffered. No one starved. No one struggled 2 cents more than they ever did, which is not really very much.

Yes, the NPC population went through their heart breaking perils, but the module was untouched except for clouds added. The PCs were still happy little do gooders crafting thousands upon thousands of foodstuffs to donate to the poor. The concept was truly not backed at all save for your occasional DM exposure, which would always end up rather sudden and out-of-place seeming in contrast to their every day adventures.

"Dark skies" really have nothing to do with Pseudo's point of struggling I'm not against the concept, or arguing numbers or anything, just suggesting we not use this as a measuring stick, because it's not really comparable as far as representation goes. I've been on dark quests, and I've been in the dark ages. The former are scary and cool, the latter just kind of frustrating due to the inability for it to be represented, constantly trying to remind people that there are more than clouds, etc... I was sooo ready for those to be over.

As to Gulnyr's comment, I agree with ycleption... that's the wrong kind of danger. It's the atmosphere - not encouraging more skunk slaughtering, but atmospheres that feel more perilous, if that makes any sense. It's not really about CR. It's about not having new world villains every few years. :P

Don't hit me

[Script Wrecked]

As for Layonara not feeling "dark", there is plenty of oppression taking place:

• Rael, the enemy of dwarves everywhere, has risen from the Under places, invaded a sovereign land, oppressed its people, and there is seemingly nothing to be done to move him.
  
  
• Fisterion has partially razed Leringard and threatens to do so again to other cities.
  
  
• Another dragon has raised its scaly head; who knows what trouble may come from that.
  
  
• The Dragon Stealers seem to be steamrolling across Belinara. They've taken over Kuhl, have amassed this huge force from who-knows-where, and are about to board the fleet at Arnax and continue their steamrolling on Dregar and/or Mistone.
  
  
• The Hated One (Milara) still appears from time to time to cause trouble in Alindor; there is even talk of him trying to attain godhood.

However, unless you have bought into any of these situations (and others), unless your character cares about what is going on and is worried about these events, then things are the proverbial bunch of roses.

These events aren't day-to-day dark and gloomy (primarily because they require DM intervention to interact with), but Layonara is certainly not a happy place.

I'm actually feeling quite threatened by this immense darkness of evil, and certainly feel underdoggish.

Regards,

Script Wrecked.



PS. Have you tried poison since this change was made? A certain assassin was pleasantly surprised recently after she was reminded that things have been adjusted and tried it.

[Gulnyr]

Originally Posted by ycleption

On the other hand, player's don't fear that they're going to be ambushed while traveling on the road, beset by pirates while sailing, or detained for questioning while crafting in Prantz.

Sure, but that's not what I got from Pseudonym's post. These just seem like 'duh' additions once we're free of the NWN limitations. If there are bandits in an area, of course we should be attacked along the road there sometimes. If there are pirates, of course ships we're traveling on should be attacked from time to time. If you're doing anything even slightly unorthodox in Prantz, you probably ought to expect questions. While that can add to the feeling of peril, it doesn't seem to encompass what Pseud is saying; if "make encounters more random and unexpected" is the gist of it, why all the "dark and gloomy" part? More interactive and realistic encounters aren't necessarily dark, y'know? I thought the four statements belonged together as part of the whole idea.

I want the new MMO to be dark.
I want to feel threatened.
I want the bad people to outnumber the good.
I want my character to always feel like the underdog.

Those four statements.

In my opinion, 1 and 4 leave somebody out every time. If your character is always the underdog, then those who play the opposite sort of character have the sort of world Pseud's saying he doesn't want to play in. If everything is bright and good, the Toranites are kind of useless and have no big goals and the Corathites are the underdogs with a gazillion choices, and vice versa in a dark and dismal world. There has to be some sort of middle ground. Number 3 already exists, though within the limitations of NWN, which basically leaves us with the options of killing everything or trying to avoid spawns. We can't go anywhere without running into hundreds of bad guys. Good guys are totally outnumbered, but the bad guys aren't all friends in some monolithic evil organization (and that's as it should be). There is never any option of what to do in the case of CNR; if you want it, you have to kill dozens of things to get it. This actually gives me hope that everything won't be bad guys, so that in some (or even many) cases 'bad guy' is up to the player and character rather than forced by the game engine. Playing a Good character, I would love to be able to try to negotiate with NPCs or even befriend them. Why do we have to be enemies with that giant clan or those satyrs in that one forest?

Back to the Big Bad, what's supposed to happen when the Big Bad is defeated? I know it's screwy to have a newer, more powerful one come out of nowhere (where were they all this time?), but what's supposed to happen when Sinthar Bloodstone and the majority of his generals are gone? What's the new challenge for the old heroes? What's the driving force for the heroes who were right behind the top tier guys or for the new generation of heroes? If your character can help destroy the Big Bad, what's left to help you feel threatened and underdoggish on the larger scale? Should there be forced retirement? Is it just time to pull the plug? I don't know the answers to these questions.

[Eight-Bit]

People need the bright and optimistic landscapes just as much as we need foggy moors and bleak grey wastelands.

I like both, and feel that implementation of both aspects would be the most logical choice on your part Leanthar.

Frag Haus Krynn was one of the biggest NWN servers back in the beginning of my time with the game, and it had both elements. There was an evil town, and a good town. The evil town, where I spent most of my time, was pretty fun. Lots of dog-eat-dog action, and that kind of gameplay is what people like me consider fun.

Obviously whatever goes will go, but I agree with psuedo on this one. I want a bleak and foreboding place for my character to exist, far away from the rolling meadows and smiling faces of helpful players.

I want people who I can take under my wing, and obliterate them when they no longer serve a purpose to me. While having them run the same risk on me.

There's very few online MMOs that really capture the brutal fatality of evil characters, and I really hope to see this.

[vgn]

I hear Pseudonym and a part of me nods. But part of me also wants further clarification and expansion.

Since I can play for literally 10 or 15 minutes and hit pause, drop everything, etc, I've been spending some of my freetime playing fallout 3. I love the fallout universe and always have. You can be good or evil or in between and the whole setting is dark.

I don't believe the entire MMO should be dark. I think it should have dark pockets. It should also have light pockets. It should appeal to as many people as possible.

What I think the MMO needs and really can have as it is an MMO and not limited in scope to shackles of NWN are:

Multitudes of factions with different alignments/agendas. This was already alluded to in the dev log. Done right, I think this can easily give a lot of what is being asked for. Imagine a dark pocket where there are dozens or more factions with their own agendas. PCs can choose to align with some of them. Alliances can rise and fall between the factions. Imagine walking from one town to the next and you see a group of goblins fighting a group of kobolds. They may stop and attack you, they may ignore you and fight each other. One may call to you for help against the other. Imagine walking through a shady part of town or a town that is itself unruly and a gang is fighting another gang. Same thing occurs as above. The very fact that you make the world more alive and not just a string of spawn points creates the option to have a dark feel or any other feel.

Expanding on factions, all actions should have lasting repercussions, not just when a GM is around to watch. By keeping track of your status with all of the factions you can have a world in which you can feel afraid or the underdog. All you have to do is make enough factions mad and you are always having to sneak around or fight. Or be selective and it still can be hair raising. In the above example, you side with one gang/org. You know the general areas where the other gang/org hangs out, but they could always pop up anywhere as people travel around. If you've made them mad enough they may attack on sight. Maybe you've alienated yourself from one of the major trade groups. They may not attack you, but they might not sell to you, or if they do sell to you they rip you off.

[Aragon]

Vgn,

Along with what you are saying, it would be really neat to come up on that gang war and see various PCs on each side fighting and receiving factional points based upon the side they support. Furthermore, that by supporting one side in the fight it expands the territory of Gang A causing merchants to flip so to speak. A world that your actions play crucial roles in the ongoings of the world. Not just oh I need to go kill Boss A for the "Purple Armor of Bunnies"

[Link092]

The world it self should be Neutral.... no good, no bad... then you insert those pockets of good and evil.

BUT, one thing to remember with having a dark environment, is that there will be lots of people who will want to play the "baddie". truth be told, the ideal environment would be to have an even split of good/evil PC's and a healthy dose of neutrals, each side with it's overall "leader" or rather, most notable. I say that because, not every one can be the "Big Hero" and not every one can be the " Big Bad Wolf". Just an idealization. that's all.

[Pseudonym]

Heh, there is no the world should be or the world shouldn't be ... there is a forum for people to express their ideas and desires, to be incorporated or not into the world that will be!

My desire (which I wouldn't dare say is close to anyone else's idea of what the world should be) is a tension, a threat, a foreboding more akin to Ravenloft/Masque of the Red Death than Forgotten Realms. I guess i'm saying i'd like the MMO set in a period when Milara or Rael have already 'won'.

PS. I enjoy reading everyone's thoughts. Cheers!

[Gulnyr]

That makes me think of a new question that's sort of tangent and philosophical: is the world darker under the influence of a single enemy like Bloodstone than with no particular group in dominance like now? Global influence of a master villain is pretty dark, but it has the potential of bringing together people who would normally be enemies to fight the greater menace, which is kind of 'bright.'

[Link092]

maybe several baddies ruling the world, with lots of tension between them. lots of wars for power... sounds like a good recipe.

[silverblades]

Originally Posted by Aragon

Vgn,

Along with what you are saying, it would be really neat to come up on that gang war and see various PCs on each side fighting and receiving factional points based upon the side they support. Furthermore, that by supporting one side in the fight it expands the territory of Gang A causing merchants to flip so to speak. A world that your actions play crucial roles in the ongoings of the world. Not just oh I need to go kill Boss A for the "Purple Armor of Bunnies"

This sure sounds Like WOW. factions and gangs raiding and fighting one another.

[Aragon]

Silverblades,

Not sure if you ever played LotR, but the PvP section where you would attack and conquer different towers to take control. Along these lines, but on a smaller scale too. Shouldn't the world change as circumstances change? When ever one army defeats another and places themselves in charge they make new laws, change existing customs, and make things the way they want them. I am suggesting that the quests available should change based upon factional relations and global events.

[silverblades]

never played LotR but yeah sounds neat. I think L was considering something like this, A PnP area with just such a place. lords and battles over land and such from what I remember in a post he had made.

[Gulnyr]

I was considering a weird consequence of the d20 system, something I've thought about now and then while playing here that is even mentioned in the D&D core books: high-level characters are pretty much completely immune to and not threatened by lower level characters. I don't mean just one-on-one, where it makes some sense in most cases, but also five-on-one or twenty-on-one or even more, maybe. And that reminded me of this thread, specifically this part:

Originally Posted by Pseudonym

I want to feel threatened.

Consider the kobolds near Hemp. They're low-level. There's no reason to expect one or two - I'll even say five - to be any threat to someone like Jennara, who has exceptional training. Realistically, there's no reason to expect her to be able to fend off a platoon of twenty at once without problems, though. I mean, yeah, it's high fantasy, but Jennara can almost certainly take out a hundred or more at once without a scratch or breaking a sweat; she's literally immune to them. That's weird.

I'm hopeful that the skill-based system and the stamina stat (and maybe even a lower hit point count?) will help keep everything in the MMO threatening to some degree. Three kobolds? You may have the stamina and the training to take them alone without getting hurt. It might be a good idea to have a potion or two handy, though, hot shot. Twenty kobolds? It'll take a miracle to take them out by yourself, and even then you'll be totally spent and probably need a healer to put your liver back where it belongs. Find some friends first or look for another way around. Or turn the concept around so it's not kobolds but townsfolk, with their pitchforks and torches, all amassed to run you of town for whatever it is commoners run people out of town for these days. Your character in NWN isn't concerned about any number of commoners coming at him, right? It shouldn't be that way, and the stamina stat (etc) should help even things out.

[Falonthas]

should always read whole thread before commenting


dark is fun, but light is fun too

yes in faerun you had heroes on every corner, but for every hero wanting to make his name in the land you had a villian trying to make his place as well, and how best to do this, kill that do gooder.

i played on a server before i came to layo that had full pvp and evil guys and good guys, and the only restriction the evil guys had was if they were going to be openly evil was make sure the people who died, and some always did, had fun while it happened. that place is also one that on every death you lose xp, all your on person gear,and risk your killer being the one who now owns all you had when you fell, unless of course you were with a party who raised you on the spot or carried all your things to the temple when they raise you

now im sure some had fun being killed by a villian
but i know i hated it especially if it was collateral damage

i liked the dark ages somewhat, butit did make alot of people move to other things, and the part that makes layo so much fun beyond what dan and the teams have put together, is the people who bring it to life.

dark has its place, but so does light, and sometimes you need a big baddie to get everyone ed at so the goodies have a goal beyond the day to day goal of getting out of the cot and putting on that gleaming armor.

i hope the mmo takes the good of both types and mixes them so that no matter your taste, its fun, cause if we arent having fun, then why are we here?