Another Class Diversity Request

[Chongo]

Hopefully I'm not too far into the weeds on this one.

Obviously since it's a skill based system then it's getting away from streamlining - so that's great. I was just looking at a great fox picture in my bathroom though, and was thinking about shapeshifting and the like.

The thing that I utterly hate about NWN shapeshifting is how insanely streamlined it is. It is progressive flat stats on each form. So ultimately, with very little variance, everyone is shooting for the same thing at the end of the road. You can't progress as a badger specialist.

Why can't I plan on always being a fox - and getting better at being that fox? Why do I have to keep on upping the wicket with each level break? One can say that an iron golem is always going to be more inherently powerful then a fox, but I say that's bologne. I mean, if a halfling can get better at being a fighter, why can't a fox? If a gnome can become a dagger wielding dev critting weaponmaster of doom with 48 strength... why can't a shifter who focused on being a biting badger of doom?

Tough request I suppose depending on how diverse the skill system is, but it's worth entertaining if you agree that class diversity swallows people into an endless world of opportunity. You allow different shapes to progress on their own and all of a sudden you make one class type into 40.

[Aragon]

Chongo,

While I can not comment on the shapeshifting (mainly because I don't have a clue), I can say is that the system will allow for ultimate custimization of your character. That is the beauty of a skill system. You are not heemed into a predetermined character mold. Your character can develop any of the skills present in the game. Want to be Michael Phelps? Well get a tobacco(*smirk*) pipe and start swimming. As you do the activity more often, you will improve over time.

[Thief Of Navarre]

Hey thats a good post Chongo. But I must say that as tough as a fox may be at level 40 it will never become a fiendish DR40/-Cold iron, king of the underworld world with an adamantium endo skeleton :S

Some things are designed to be tougher than others, while you may not wish to be something different most people enjoy the diversity that the shifter class brings... just my two cents of course! We will have to wait and see what the MMO develops into

[Gulnyr]

Originally Posted by Thief Of Navarre

while you may not wish to be something different most people enjoy the diversity that the shifter class brings.

Diversity would come from choosing to learn the various shapeshifting skills rather than focusing on one shape alone, just like a typical warrior would learn to use a broad range of weaponry while a 'weapon master' would focus on one weapon alone. If you want to be the best longswordsman, you only learn longsword skills and take them all the way to the top; if you want to be the best fox, you only learn fox skills and take them all the way to the top.

There's no reason one character can't be a specialist in one form while another character learns multiple forms in a skill-based game (unless, of course, it's built like the NWN shapeshifting stuff rather than like the weapon skill sets that have already been described, which would be a shame). The player would choose to have variety or specialization rather than being forced into a mold.

[Chongo]

Originally Posted by Aragon

While I can not comment on the shapeshifting (mainly because I don't have a clue), I can say is that the system will allow for ultimate custimization of your character. That is the beauty of a skill system.

That's my hope. My problem with shapeshifting in NWN is that it hinges nearly entirely on preset stats, claws, and skins that do not progress with level. The stagnant presets kill me. It's like getting magic missile where at level 40 you only have one 1d6 missile firing.

Originally Posted by Thief Of Navarre

But I must say that as tough as a fox may be at level 40 it will never become a fiendish DR40/-Cold iron, king of the underworld world with an adamantium endo skeleton

I dunno... seems to work for small gnomes at least.

*Edit* All in all I completely disagree with this statement in addition to ycleptions below. You basically need to think of it in NWN terms. The halfling with 48 strength - higher then most dragons on Layonara. The dwarf with higher DR then an adamantium golem. The issue is that shapes offer no growth the way that DnD has designed all other things. I have high hopes for a skill based system, but I still fear the idea of fixed stats, skins, and claws. It predetermines your path. Dragon shape, maybe one of the others... but it ain' wolf. Layonara in NWN overcame this only through special scripts, skins, claws, and stats for WL rewards. Meanwhile you have ultimate versatility in other races that, at the end of the day, are just animals... sometimes smaller then a fox.

[ycleption]

Well, more to the point, the level 40 fox shouldn't be as tough as the adaexoskelunderworlkingfein thing...

It should, however, be the quickest thing on four legs, and be cunning and crafty and all that, which should make up for a certain lack toughness.

So I disagree that there should be so much flexibility that anyone/any shape can be anything... but I do think that there should be options to be a powerful in any form, even if the way that you can be powerful is somewhat limited.

[Aragon]

Chongo,

I suppose there are two ways to look at the whole shapeshifting idea:

1) the point behind shapeshifting is to essentially be that animal/creature and inherit its natural abilities.

or

2) the shapeshifting grants to the shifter the measure of his own natural abilities enhanced by the virtues of the animal/creature he assumes.

Obviously, you are in favor of #2. I would argue that if you shapeshift into a fox you should not maintian your characters natural abilities. i.e. no spell casting (no hands to perform the intricate patterns), not as dexterious (paws vs. hands), but you should gain an increase to your speed and ability to move silently. I do not think that the abilities of the new form should combine with your abilities. Just because you are uber Move Silently Halfling does not mean that you could do the same things on four paws. The character has trained in his natural form to do those things. Now things like intelligence, wisdom, and constituion should transfer and perhaps a measure of your strength.

Now as far as upgrading, I assume you mean that you could go from say a shapeshifted red fox to a gray fox to perhaps a dire fox? Or are you asking for similar to dragons, young fox, mature fox and old fox with an increase to the attack/defense/skills through the levels. I believe this is what you are looking for. Which makes some sense to me.

****This is just Aragon speaking outloud with no ties to future progression of the game .... what if your experience that you gained while in that form went towards your progression as that form. So that you leveled your Fox form and gained increased attacks/skills/ as you used that form?

[Gulnyr]

Originally Posted by Chongo

Meanwhile you have ultimate versatility in other races that, at the end of the day, are just animals... sometimes smaller then a fox.

I don't think the player races have "ultimate" versatility, at least not in the D&D style system. That would imply they all have identical racial stat modifiers and natural abilities, which they don't. The racial modifiers tend to give certain races an edge at certain activities and make them slow learners at others. These aren't insurmountable modifiers, of course, so a halfling can be a good Fighter and a dwarf can be a good Sorcerer despite having Strength and Charisma penalties, respectively, showing that there is versatility at a cost. I actually like racial modifiers and hope they remain in the MMO. They add flavor and variety. And it doesn't bother me that an elf might have a better aptitude - not ability - aptitude with bow skills than a human simply because his body is naturally inclined to it.

Similarly, animals have their strengths and weaknesses. They shouldn't all be identical or identically able, but should have some variation and variety. The choice of which animal form or forms to pursue shouldn't be purely aesthetic. That's just like choosing a skin to wear over established stats, making a snake the same as a bear. I agree that the forms shouldn't be static and identical from one character to another, but I don't think a fox should have exactly the same potential as a squirrel or boar or goat or frog, either. All forms should have advantages and disadvantages, even if there is a lot of overlapping.

I like Aragon's last idea. It seems to fit well with what Ycleption said and offers the ability of advancing a specific form.

[Chongo]

Originally Posted by Gulnyr

I like Aragon's last idea. It seems to fit well with what Ycleption said and offers the ability of advancing a specific form.

I like it as well, but in NWN at least, that means making a million and one different creatures. I mean, it'd be great if each form had 40 different versions for each level. Baby fox all the way up to a Legendary Fox for instance.

What I'm suggesting is some manner of progression so that the class is less streamlined. I understand everything Aragon's saying - and I agree in spirit... but I hope there's a way to not railroad everyone as much as NWN has. I do think that an accomplished epic shifter should be capable of creating a little bit more then a 1d4 claw on a badger form. I suppose it depends on Layonara's interpretation of how the Al'noth influences the shape. If there is any association (and I think Ed touched on the concept of this in regard to shifting in dead magic) then it is inherently something that can be altered with physical attributes and the like. But that'd require L or Ed for comment.

All in all, it's just an idea for more character diversity. With skill-basing a lot changes, but I'm still afraid of fixed stats and claws.

[Gulnyr]

Originally Posted by Chongo

I like it as well, but in NWN at least, that means making a million and one different creatures. I mean, it'd be great if each form had 40 different versions for each level. Baby fox all the way up to a Legendary Fox for instance.

Forget a million different forms. That wasn't the last idea Aragon posted. It was this:

Originally Posted by Aragon

what if your experience that you gained while in that form went towards your progression as that form. So that you leveled your Fox form and gained increased attacks/skills/ as you used that form?

The Progression as a Form idea sounds symmetrical with the Progression as an Archer idea to me. Use a bow, level in bow skills and get better. Act as a fox, level in fox skills and get better. A "better" fox might come as a package (which is what you are against, I think, and I agree) or could be broken into separate skills (improved bite, faster running, better stealth, whatever else) that would be gained based on what the character had done as a fox, just like every other character and all the other skills.

[Aragon]

Gulnyr,

Exactly, I would add to my original thought and say that to simplfy this across a skill based game or a NWN game would be to require the shifter to choose a specialized creature form. So you would be say a Shapeshifter - Fox Form. Which is not unrealistic since most would have a perfered form. This becomes basically a specialized class ... if you are using a class system. For a skill system it really doesn't matter you just inhibit the applying of certian skills and enhance the progression of others.

[Dorganath]

Shape-shifting and/or polymorph are not likely to be extremely robust at release, and there's almost assuredly not going to be a "Fox Shape" skill or anything of the like.

However, what I will say is that in at least some way(s), shifted forms and things like summons will scale in a meaningful way with the skill of the caster.

So for example if two Spellgrowers each take the form of a Red Fox (example...not necessarily an available shape), the Red Fox shape for the Spellgrower with more skill may be better, subject to the granularity of the progression, of course.

Something similar can be said for summons, as the level, size and/or relative power of the summoned creature will increase in some way with the skill level of the Spellcaller.

NWN's key limitation here is that every form and every summon have to be rather specifically defined in some way, whereas in the MMO, they don't.

[Marswipp]

I see code-based templates...

[Dorganath]

Well, sort of.

We still have defined creatures, but if we wanted to have a "lesser" and a "greater"...or a whole spectrum of like creatures, we can sort of "grow" them when they're created at runtime if we want.