Bard Song

[osxmallard]

Ok -- what exactly is bard song.

One group of people think it's a bard's dedication to song and a lifestyle which allows the voice to inspire their party in battle and it's completely non-magical.  Henceforth -- it works in no magic areas.  It is treated as a class skill and does not use magic to give the bonuses to the party.

Other groups think that (and I'm not picking on DS, this is just an excellent summation):

A bard's Bard Song is part of their greater connection to the Al'Noth - the magical force that pervades Layonara. Like sorcerers, this connection is innate - unlike sorcerers, Bards tend not to have it manifest uncontrollably, but rather through their music, Bard Song being just one such manifestation. At some point in his early career, [a bard] would've discovered that [they] could work minor feats of magic (cantrips).

[Lalaith Va'lash]

Bardsongs (and abilities tied to bardsongs) are not magic.  Bard spells are.  Many bards RP their spells as a kind of singing, which is fine, but these call upon magic, whereas bardsong is more of an inspirational sort of thing and work through the influence of sound/music.

The same applies to Skald abilities. While technically "supernatural" they're destructive sounds, not magical. The supernatural part is in the Skald's ability to produce those sounds, not in the sounds themselves.

I like what he said.

[Acacea]

Sure, a part of, but not drawing on it. Woven into the magical abilities - but not tapping them. Their spells, even when sung or played or some other musical form, is a tapping/drawing from the greater force that is magic. The "song" is the tapping/drawing from greater force that is within them, call it what you like. Inspiration, expression, soul, the force. Whatever. Anyone can play the guitar, perhaps cheer someone up, but the bard draws from something deeper and more powerful. Both skald and bard songs can be used in dead magic mechanically, and that fact has rearranged and solidified the opinion of "Bard Song" as what you see in Dorg's post. They work in dead magic and they are allowed to be used, and nothing especially magical is "drawn" on when singing, so it must be non-magical. Your ability to produce these sounds is perhaps supernatural, but you're not 'casting' to do it.

[darkstorme]

Some of the aspects of Bardsong I've always considered to be magical, which, admittedly, is mechanically tricky in a Dead Magic zone.

Most notably, extra hit points.  This isn't like a CON bonus which gives you a temporary boost to your vitality, only to leave you to drop dead of your wounds when it goes away - this is more akin to the Aid spell, or similar effects, where any damage comes first from the extra hit points.

While I'm willing to accept that a talented musician could play a song well enough to inspire you to greater feats of dexterity (AC, Reflex) or strengthen your resolve (Will, Fort, Attack/Damage), and I personally work better with music (Skill), the extra HP mean that, mechanically, while under the effects of a Bard Song, you can take damage which, after the Bard Song is over, vanishes.

Other than that, I'd accept Bard Song as just sublime skill with voice and instrument.  But those extra hit points have always seemed magical to me.

Regardless, in past discussions, I've always been told that what differentiates a Bard from a minstrel is not any superior skill, but rather an innate connection to the Al'Noth, as with a Sorcerer, but focused through music/song.

[Dorganath]

Well if you consider that HPs are more a measure of your ability to avoid damage rather than how physically durable you are, then it doesn't quite seem so "magical".

A level 1 Commoner and a level 40 Min/Maxed Fighter will both die just as quickly if you stab each in the heart, even though the fighter literally has hundreds more HP.  The difference is that the Commoner would probably not know how to to avoid that stab, whereas the fighter might twist at the right moment and come away with just a scratch.  Mechanically, that blade did the same "damage" but the fighter managed to avoid most of it.

Consider also the coup de grace in NWN, where if a target is sleeping, the next successful hit is an automatic death.  Why?  No possible way to avoid the damage from that strike.

Bards do have an innate connection to the Al'Noth, but it's for their spells, not their song.

So in that frame, the bardsong gives inspiration and even self-confidence enough to go through battle in a more agile way, thereby avoiding damaged just a little bit better than when uninspired.

[Hellblazer]

the extra HP mean that, mechanically, while under the effects of a Bard

 
 There is a lot of things in life that can effect the amount of pain, damage, hp (what ever you want to call it) that other people couldn't normally. I'll give you two example. Someone that is under adrenaline, or drunk, will have a highten pain threshold than someone that was sitting down right there and being hit the same thing.
 
 People have been concider drunk from bliss.. would it be far streched in a fantasy world to take it for that? The song touches the person so much, that it enhences their adrenaline level and give them a higher threshold to pain. hence more hp.

[darkstorme]

This is true, Hellblazer, except that those effects are akin to the CON boost I referred to earlier, in that they only postpone the injury.

When the effects of alcohol/morphine/painkiller of choice wear off, the body collects the bills you were able to ignore while under its effects - in extreme cases, this can result in death by shock.

If the body's under an adrenaline rush, yes, it can take more punishment, but again, it exacts its payment later, when the chemical leaves the bloodstream.  When Bard Song comes to a conclusion, any damage dealt... never happened.  No aches, no cuts.  No damage.  Adrenaline and other chemical aids just don't work that way.

@Dorg - the same argument applies, I think.  If you treat greater hitpoints as a greater ability to avoid taking lethal damage, and hitpoint damage as fatigue and glancing blows wearing away at that ability, why is this fatigue ignored after the effects wear off?

I remembered the "greater HP -> better able to avoid lethal damage" argument, and I still like it - as you say, it explains the coup de grace and similar attacks quite nicely.  But I don't buy it as a workaround for the Bard Song's effects.  If you take damage, it should buoy you up for the time that it's in effect, but to erase that fatigue/wear as it fades from your memory?

The other problem is a lack of proportion.  Say you're under the effect of a Bard Song, and thus, as you say, better able to avoid injury.  During that time, no one actually hits you.  The effect of the song wears off, and you're back to normal.

Later on, tougher opponents face you and your team.  The bard sings his Bard Song.  These guys, though, manage to get through your defenses and smash your arm with a club.  Nothing lethal or permanent here, but it slows you down a bit.  And when the song ends... you're back to normal.

I can't find any way of reconciling that, even with the different interpretation of hitpoints.

[Filatus]

Darkstorme, I think the problem is that you consider every hit as seen ingame an actual hit. The hitpoint system was never intended in that way I believe. The extra hitpoints can be considered a morale bonus so the PC doesn't suffer as much from fatigue.

240 hp doesn't mean someone has a bodyarmoured spleen for example...

[Hellblazer]

At that point, if it's strickly mechanical in nature, it should come down to rp. Might be it could be coded differently but if not, the person that receive that boost, could rp being soar afterward?
 
 Been a while since I created an area, but if I remember correctly there is way s of preventing certain abilities/boost to be created. Taking this temp boost to hp out, could solve the problem if it is viewed too much as being magical, instead of taking the whole thing out, that for most part would not be concidered magical in essence.

[ycleption]

Does that mean I have to retcon all that time Drexia has RPed as having been training her "Ki powered inner spleen armor"?

[Acacea]

Hey darkstorme, let's pretend for a moment we're in a fantasy world where some of the real world's most skilled musicians cannot even compare to the feats a bard is capable of *Adds another smiley just in case*

It is different than simply mechanical skill or good sounding tone - imagine a mundanely expert fiddler teaching a gifted but less experienced bard, surpassing him in actual skill yet lacking the almost supernatural gift to make it yet more? I have encountered that situation in game a few times - several characters enjoy having their characters play instruments or sing even if they are not bards, and it isn't fair to say they suck just because they don't have access to the perform skill. I have no problems with people having musical talents without the perform skill, just like I do not consider a duelist's perform skill to make her or him any better than a fighter without a perform skill at all. That's not what it's for, in that case.

Anyway, I'm rambling - I'm just saying that not all musicians are bards, even if all bards were musicians (which of course they aren't, either). I would think that say, some place like the Ineffable Chord might have technically skilled musicians that were not "bards" in addition to their bards... they seem to have a lot of focus on mechanical accuracy and math and formal musical training, which does not always translate. Of course PC wise you would need to be a bard, but an expert musician NPC in their ranks, hey...! Someone could listen to them and think how amazingly impressive that was, musically speaking, whether they "get" it or not, but someone listening to a level one bard can be moved even though the skill is not as great. Moved to what, that sort of depends on the bard and the listener, but yeah...

I'm not saying that I want it to end up being defined as totally mundane - I think that is pretty silly for the reasons above, and takes a lot of the magic out of classes like that. But it does work in dead magic, both OOC and IC, to the point where whole areas are balanced for bardsong to be included in a party. Any explanation needs to include why it works, not how it should work-even-though-that's-hard-to-explain.

You're right, no matter how skilled real musicians are, they don't ignore damage (technically we aren't ignoring damage but avoiding it, though) and dodge bullets because someone was playing a tune. That is what makes them special - almost supernatural, if bards were the only arcane class. Compared to sorcerers and the like, what is the big deal, right? But it is a pretty impressive ability, perhaps born from their connection to magic, but not relying on it.

[Filatus]

Does that mean I have to retcon all that time Drexia has RPed as having been training her "Ki powered inner spleen armor"?

Naturally! Everyone knows that in Chinese culture the spleen is considered as the seat of one's temperament. Which would sooner make it the monk's soft spot.

[Drizzlin]

Having a higher con increases your fort saving throws as well. This has nothing to do with a coup de grace. More hitpoints can be explained as you put it Dorg, but it can also be explained as the difference between my father cutting half his thumb off working on a car one day, and then using electrical tape to hold his thumb together while he finished the work, before going to the doctor. I was 8 years old when I saw him do that. He never blinked an eye, muchless shed a tear. He has more con than the average bear when it comes to that =P

If this is the ruling made by the DMs then I of course support it, don't get me wrong.

[lonnarin]

Whenever I hear Danzig's "Mother", I know I get at least +2 to str and con and 1d10 temporary hit points, though whether that's actually a bard's song or just unlocking my repressed barbarian rage, I don't know for certain.  Just about anything on the radio these days demoralizes me on par with a cursed song too, bloody top 40s pop stations!

Radio needs more BOC.

[Dorganath]

@Dorg - the same argument applies, I think.  If you treat greater hitpoints as a greater ability to avoid taking lethal damage, and hitpoint damage as fatigue and glancing blows wearing away at that ability, why is this fatigue ignored after the effects wear off?

I remembered the "greater HP -> better able to avoid lethal damage" argument, and I still like it - as you say, it explains the coup de grace and similar attacks quite nicely.  But I don't buy it as a workaround for the Bard Song's effects.  If you take damage, it should buoy you up for the time that it's in effect, but to erase that fatigue/wear as it fades from your memory?

It's not about being "bouyed" but rather a sort of "supernatural high" where you're mind and spirits are lifted to a point where perhaps the pain of injuries don't bother you so much and don't cause the shock reaction to kick in just yet.  As the song fades, so does the inspiration it brought, and all those things at the edges of your senses start to come back, including the pain/injury response.

Hey darkstorme, let's pretend for a moment we're in a fantasy world where some of the real world's most skilled musicians cannot even compare to the feats a bard is capable of *Adds another smiley just in case*

Repeated for emphasis.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

Whenever I hear Danzig's "Mother", I know I get at least +2 to str and con and 1d10 temporary hit points, though whether that's actually a bard's song or just unlocking my repressed barbarian rage, I don't know for certain.  Just about anything on the radio these days demoralizes me on par with a cursed song too, bloody top 40s pop stations!

Radio needs more BOC.

Everything that I would've said having already been said in this thread, I'm just going to agree with this.