Author Topic: Protection from spells (Read 384 times)

Skywatcher · « **on:** August 06, 2007, 05:46:16 pm »

The description for protection from spells says it gives +8 on all saves vs spells but I have noticed in some cases this is not so. The two cases that I noticed recently were storm of vengance and wail. In both cases I only got the base save as the bonus to the roll while in the same time period saving against a greater thunder clap the +8 modifier was included. Should I report this as a bug or is there something going on that I don't understand?

Pibemanden · « **Reply #1 on:** August 06, 2007, 05:49:22 pm »

There is a +20 max to all saves that might be what you are getting into here. That means, you can't get over +20 from your base saves so you might cap your saves which is why you see no change with the protection from spells on.

Skywatcher · « **Reply #2 on:** August 06, 2007, 06:17:46 pm »

That is good to know but I don't think that's what's going on here. Here are two lines from my log:

[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Sun Aug 05 23:12:43] Clarissa : Reflex Save vs. Sonic : *success* : (13 + 31 = 44 vs. DC: 29)
[CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Sun Aug 05 23:12:47] Clarissa : Reflex Save vs. Electricity : *success* : (2 + 25 = 27 vs. DC: 26)

The first save was against a thunderclap by a party member. With 16 levels of Paladin and 5 of Champion I think my unmodified base is +9 which is weird if +20 is the max since the save shows +31. The second line is from the storm of vengance cast by a troll shaman. The other wierd thing here is that the difference is 6 points. If I miscalculated my base and it is really +11 then the 31 makes sense if my buffed save was +25 at the time. But none of that solves the problem of why the protection from spells works on some spells and not others. I hope these details help someone explain the behavior. Thanks

Pibemanden · « **Reply #3 on:** August 06, 2007, 06:20:07 pm »

Ehmm.. It is not like you can't get your save over 20, it is because you can't get more than +20 to unbuffed modifier.

Skywatcher · « **Reply #4 on:** August 06, 2007, 06:29:42 pm »

Right. I understand what you are saying. The +31 on the first reflex save is probably base +20 maxed. But why is the second save only +25 if 4 seconds earlier it was +31. The difference is whether or not the Protection from Spells is being applied. In one case it is and in the other it is not and they are both saves against spells.

LynnJuniper · « **Reply #5 on:** August 06, 2007, 07:07:17 pm »

This is not meant to sound stupid or undermine you, but were your wards in that seconds fading?

Filatus · « **Reply #6 on:** August 06, 2007, 07:09:17 pm »

Some spells' effects are considered non-magical.

Storm of Vengeance, combust.. the secondary effect of Meteor swarms. And since it's basically a natural effect from that point, like your pants being on fire you won't get sc bonus.. or protection from spells won't work.

Halfwit Genious · « **Reply #7 on:** August 06, 2007, 07:26:55 pm »

Well in answer to Lynn's question: no the wards weren't wearing off. I was there with them and was actually the caster of the PFS. We rested often enough that none of the wards ran out beforehand. Just my two cents.

LynnJuniper · « **Reply #8 on:** August 06, 2007, 07:28:20 pm »

Alright then, fresh outta ideas Sorry

miltonyorkcastle · « **Reply #9 on:** August 06, 2007, 07:35:52 pm »

What Filatus says is right on. It is the correct answer.

Skywatcher · « **Reply #10 on:** August 06, 2007, 07:55:50 pm »

That makes sense then. Is there a list of all of the spells that PFS doesn't count on? I would hate to assume I could make a save vs a particular DC and then find out I failed because the PFS didn't count. Maybe this could be added to the spell description of PFS to clearly define what it protects against and what it doesn't. Thanks everyone. I knew there was something I was missing.

miltonyorkcastle · « **Reply #11 on:** August 06, 2007, 08:07:04 pm »

There isn't a definitive list, no. I could ask for PM's of known spells like this to make a list. I could then update LORE. I wouldn't update PFS, as it's description is accurate: it protects against spell-effects only, not natural or supernatural effects. I might, however, place an addition to the spell description of, say, Combust, explaining that after a certain point the magic has finished its work and natural effects have taken over.

Skywatcher · « **Reply #12 on:** August 06, 2007, 09:58:29 pm »

I would suggest a general statement in the PFS description. As it is it says, "receives a +8 bonus on all saving throws against spells." Adding a comment that the bonus does not apply to "effects" from spells that are natural in origin like fire or an earthquake... would make it clear that it is not a universal save bonus against anything a caster can throw at you.

ycleption · « **Reply #13 on:** August 06, 2007, 11:37:24 pm »

To make the issue easier, do Protection from Spells and Spell Resistance have the same "exceptions"? That is, if I am looking to see whether a particular spell is affected by PFS, can I just see whether SR applies (and there is an applicable save, obviously)?

Skywatcher · « **Reply #14 on:** August 07, 2007, 12:06:53 am »

That was a good thought but I checked Storm of Vengance and it says it sees spell resistance and in fact sometimes SR stopped the effect but PFS doesn't apply to it.

s0ulz · « **Reply #15 on:** August 07, 2007, 12:46:36 am »

Oh come on where's the fun in that, if you have lists for everything. A little excitement is good and spices your boring adventurer lives up at least a small bit.

Stockholm · « **Reply #16 on:** August 07, 2007, 06:47:30 am »

LoL.. Easy for an Epic Dwarf to say with an fort save near around 30 since I do belive that what people fear most are deathspells that only a foritude save can save from. Its different to not make a Reflex save in a storm or having a perhaps 20-50% chanse of making an fortitude save and die if failing..

I do belive it will add some extra dimension to the world/game if people in general knew more about the different saves.

-For example people would stay out of places that they don't realy have any buisiness in.

- many craftable rings/amulets and items that gives +1 upp till + 3 on different saves would be much more atractive on the market. As it is now the only jewelery people wear are +1-3 ability scores.

lonnarin · « **Reply #17 on:** August 07, 2007, 12:38:27 pm »

Quote from: Filatus

Some spells' effects are considered non-magical.

Storm of Vengeance, combust.. the secondary effect of Meteor swarms. And since it's basically a natural effect from that point, like your pants being on fire you won't get sc bonus.. or protection from spells won't work.

Which is why Bjornigar is so bloody flammable! I wish water elementals could be tamed to constantly hug Bjorn every time he goes east, heh.

aragwen · « **Reply #18 on:** August 09, 2007, 10:08:03 am »

Quote from: Stockholm

I do belive it will add some extra dimension to the world/game if people in general knew more about the different saves.

-For example people would stay out of places that they don't realy have any buisiness in.

- many craftable rings/amulets and items that gives +1 upp till + 3 on different saves would be much more atractive on the market. As it is now the only jewelery people wear are +1-3 ability scores.

The question is not whether you as player should know this, but rather would your character actually know this and be able to make decisions regarding this?

Would a your character know the DC save for a wail for example and therefore know to avoid certain things or not? Or would your charater chance it and find out he is not affected and therefore continue to chance it.

Just my own personal opinion but knowing what creatures use what spells, and how they affect you and what the DC to save against them, is very much metagaming.

Granted that if you are a wizard with years of study you would know what a certain spell is and what the effects are. And you might have a good chance to guess if you can survive or not.

I am with Soul on this, it is way more fun not knowing what to expect and always be prepared for the unexpected than to analyse every piece of the game and make it a totally known factor.

Stockholm · « **Reply #19 on:** August 10, 2007, 04:32:00 am »

Quote from: aragwen

The question is not whether you as player should know this, but rather would your character actually know this and be able to make decisions regarding this?

Would a your character know the DC save for a wail for example and therefore know to avoid certain things or not? Or would your charater chance it and find out he is not affected and therefore continue to chance it.

Just my own personal opinion but knowing what creatures use what spells, and how they affect you and what the DC to save against them, is very much metagaming.

Granted that if you are a wizard with years of study you would know what a certain spell is and what the effects are. And you might have a good chance to guess if you can survive or not.

I am with Soul on this, it is way more fun not knowing what to expect and always be prepared for the unexpected than to analyse every piece of the game and make it a totally known factor.

I can totaly understand and in some ways I agree in what you two are saying.

On the other hand if you as a person know this and always are unprepared for the expected isn't perhaps so fun if you got 9 DT.

To point fingers and telling a 9 DT character that he/she is metagaming for knowing thees things and say.. charge!! or be a bad RP and metagamer is a little harsh.

Its two simple ways of avoiding that ofcourse and one thing is that just travel into complete safe areas.. Or sitting on a bench, but how fun is that?
The other is to have a "powergameparty" First of all a Cleric, 2 spellsingers, 2 fighters and perhaps a bard. Then you can just run into pretty much everything and fear nothing and just hack and slash for nice XP.

I know many that wan't set their foot on east if don't having a cleric in the party O.o

Going to dangerous places whithout for example a cleric is more dangerous, takes more planning, a good tactic and are a fun challange. Knowing different saves and having them in mind helps alot when doing so and you can so much RP it. :p

*The rogue slips in his Boots that will make him act faster and react quicker. His reflexes are now so fast that he can dodge the fire from flamethrowing giants*

-Rogoue: Bjornigar! Can you please stay behind me and don't attack the giant untill he has throwed his fire at me.. I don't wan't to see you burn like a torch eh.. *grins*

I don't see this as metagaming and I would be surprised if someone reacted negative to it and says... // hey! thats metagaming!

This was just an example of one save but you could do similar for everyone ofcourse.. The fighter that have an easy effected mind and always drools..

- Hey mr ringmaker.. Say can you make a ring that makes my mind stronger so I don't just stand and drools when fighting those narsty snakes eh? it seems like They always get into my head and makes me confused..
- Sure I can infuse such a ring with that sort of magic for you sir fighter..

As I said I do see why and have no problem that many, perhaps most people don't wan't to know these facts and are taking their chanses, and thinks that it adds more excitment and fun to the game.
But I also do think it would be a bit unfair to say its wrong to letting your character knowing these things and use the knowledge.

My opinion though and sofar i seem to be the only one hehe