PvP - Getting Hit Mechanically vs. Realistically/RP-Wise

[ShiffDrgnhrt]

Alright. I'm bringing this up cause of a PvP I was in, and lost. But, it might help for others to think about this.

Fighter A and Fighter B get mad at eachother and A threatens B over something B said. A and B go to the Arena to fight.

A is the better "fighter" (Fgt/Wm), B is... (Rog/Fgt). Forget feats and Such (like Epic Dodge >.>). But, B has on a "shirt" with +3 Soak 10 Damage. A's greatsword smack him in the chest/head/arm but its only +2 so no mechanical damage, and this happens and happens and blah blah blah.

A loses. (me)

Now the question. Whats the realism of that? No broken bones, bruises, anything on B's side. A got ruined. In an RP sense, I would Imagine even getting hit would hurt in some way/shape/form.

Why do I ask? Cause it's an RP server, and I woulda imagines two skilled fighters having a real throw down, not a one sided .... whatever you call that...

Any comments, thoughts... ? Dms?

[miltonyorkcastle]

Magic... it's a... ahem... yeah... magic has the ability to make an awesome warrior look like a ninny (in this case, the magic of the clothing)... why do you think 90% of dwarves at least distrust magic if they don't outright hate it?

If you want to imagine what the fight might have looked like "close" up with all the effects our game can't render: Shiff's sword is bouncing off an almost invisible barrier before ever reaching ..err, B.... the barrier only becoming slightly visible as Shiff tries to break through it. "B" would have felt nothing as he was never actually hit.

Of course, that's only one way to imagine it. One way or the other, the magic absorbed Shiff's attacks so "B"s body didn't have to.

P.S. Advice from one killer to another: Before you throw down discover your opponents weaknesses so you can exploit them; don't trust your own strength.

[Gulnyr]

The way I see it, hit points represent more than just how many cuts you can take. They are also a measure of training and endurance. The tougher you are, the more hits you can take and keep going. The better your training, the less "X points of damage" really hurt you. The better your endurance, the longer you can last in a fight, keeping up your guard properly to deflect or dodge or whatever you do. It's an abstraction and doesn't always make perfect sense, but it works well enough.

Damage that causes hit point loss is meaningful damage. If a magical shirt prevents some weapons from doing damage, then the wearer isn't being meaningfully hurt. They may be sore later, but at that moment there's no real problem. Think of football pads. There are people slamming into each other, and that probably should hurt, and they may be sore later, but right then on the field they are fine.

So, in my opinion, Fighter B may be tired and sore from the exertion, and may have a few minor bruises or such that don't really cause any difficulties or pain (y'know, for color, if you like that stuff), but didn't lose any hit points so didn't suffer broken bones or serious bruises or major wounds of any sort. He was fine. Magic is wonderful like that.

[ShiffDrgnhrt]

Then Explain Adamantium or Cobalt Or Mithril... Or the leathers? I always saw the metal armors as too hard and taking some of the blow, and the Dire Bear or whatever as too tough to really get through. Think about it. A suit of armor made of dragon skin isnt tough from magic, its tough cause dragon skin IS harder then hell... But hey, if I smack you with a tree and your i Addy Full Plate, yer GONNA move, even if the armor takes all the damageg

[miltonyorkcastle]

Actually, unless Ed tells me otherwise (and he just might. I'm still learning how dragons work in Layo), dragonskin is magical, as dragons are inherently magical creatures.

As for the non-magical armors, or reinforced clothing, you're right. They "take" some of the blow. But in the case you cited, that's exactly what the magic is doing: taking some of the blow. In essence, it's "too hard", just like adamantium is too hard, for many physical attacks to break through.

When a mage casts Shield or Mage Armor, they are literally placing a hard, invisible barrier around them that are designed to absorb or deflect physical blows.

[Gulnyr]

In a way, the training and endurance concepts of hit points are much more important than the cuts concept. It's a fantasy world, but there's nothing magic about flesh, really. A good chop with an axe and you're done, right?

So, a hit doesn't necessarily mean that a wound was caused; it could be that it happened to hit the shield or deflect off the armor. The defender "spent" some hit points to reflect his training, moving with the blow to reduce its effectiveness, getting just a bit more tired with the maneuver. That's a hit mechanically, though, and hit points are lost.

Adding fancy materials just makes it easier to avoid taking damage. They combine with training to make the combatant "tougher." Blades slide off more easily and arrows have more trouble penetrating. Add magic and anything is possible.

[osxmallard]

Why is a greatsword hitting for less than 10 damage?

[ycleption]

I waffle between the magic explanation and a more RLish one...
Think of some historical examples...
When attacking the Aztecs, Cortés got a locally made tightly woven cloth armor because it stopped arrows better than the European steel armors.
In one of the British colonial uprisings (can't remember which) The Brits complained their swords couldn't cut through the wool jerkins the peasants wore.
Just because metal full plate is mechanically much stronger than leathers and cloth armors doesn't mean that a well-made lighter armor can't stop blows. We don't have much experience with thick leathers and cloth garments nowadays, so we tend not to think of it though.
As far as the reinforced clothing, maybe the damage reduction is kevlarish... spreads the force of a cutting blow across the wearer, so you're right, it's still going to hurt, but you aren't going to be able to cut someone wearing them in half.
And if you don't buy that, there's always the "it's magic" explanation :-)

[ShiffDrgnhrt]

The Magic Explanation is for those that don't have a brain like you Clepy

But seriously, I agree more with Cleppy here then anything "magical"...

I dont see Kobal Casting Shield on his Mithril Armor when he makes it. Lord of the Rings is a great example. Mithril "Light as a feather, Hard as Dragonscales" stops a huge spear from stabbing Frodo, but KNOCKS HIM OUT in the process. Sure it didnt go throw him, but he still got hit with all that Force. Every wear kevlar and get shot? It still freakin Hurts, even if you arent gonna die.

[Filatus]

Ahh, but Frodo got KD'd!

[Gulnyr]

The Frodo example is an excellent "real life" fluff-text conversion of the mechanics of damage reduction. Frodo's low level, but wearing this fancy-pants armor. The spear would normally have killed him (or anyone, probably - spear through the chest, ouch. Even King Arthur died that way), but the damage was reduced so that he was only knocked out (zero hit points) and was able to recover.

[Fatherchaos]

As was mentioned earlier, and is often brought up in various other forms of discussion for DnD, hit points are less a direct representation of how much direct physical punishment one can take in combat and is more representative of the overall combat dance. Essentially, ever traded blow, parry, miss, glancing shot, dodge, roll, etc., is what Hit points are truly representative of.

Of course this all falls apart when sitting at the table and scoring "a hit" or observing another avatar poke your avatar squarely in vulnerable places. From my perspective, I would assume that character A hit character B a few times - glancing blows, sliding past a parry, etc. - but was never able to successfully penetrate the armor. At most, character B then got nudged about due to his protective armor, the likes character A might have never seen.

Before I forget, don't forget your dicebag - you could always do a called shot to the face which tends to generally be rather unprotected by copious amounts of semi-magical chain mail. Face, hands, exposed tail, all are fair game if you play it smart. You may want to dicebag future pvp combat - ignoring potentially event breaking things such as + x / soak Y - but that's all between the combatants. I don't think the mechanical nature of NWN's combat system was designed for anything more efficent in pvp then to measure one's electronic-pencil.

For me, pvp is a dicebag only affair. It gives both sides to properly act with their characters abilities.

[ShiffDrgnhrt]

Balin's Tomb - The Lord of the Rings

Ignore the Bad music, but towards the end you see my example. Frodo gets hit with a HUGE spear and gets only knocked down and out. (not up ) Aragorn even says "That Spear would have skewered a wild Boar" so don't tell me getting hit "and living" Doesn't hurt.

[Filatus]

If Tolkien had respected lvl requirements, Frodo wouldn't have been able to wear that mithril chain shirt. Just an example of an unbalanced magic world. Enough said.. *shifty*

[ShiffDrgnhrt]

Shut Up Hardy, he got the Group XP for Pwning the Ringwraiths AND the Balrog, AND a HORDE of Orcs!

Plus the Quest Reward Bonus for "Epic Battle"

[Falonthas]

hmm one sided where one fighter gets ruins and the other doesnt have a scratch

id call that wolverine in the cage fights in xmen 1

shiff have you been fighting mutants?

the b fighter should have shown some fatigue from the fight even if he didnt have a scratch just to make it more realistic

he may have thrashed you but i bet it took a while

[miltonyorkcastle]

I think what Gulnyr is explaining and what we're saying about items or magic taking part of the blow needs to be pulled together (which may very well be what Gulnyr is trying to do anyway).

The way I see HP is, if it hurts, you use up HP. It doesn't have to be an actual wound, like Gulnyr suggests, but if the blow is good enough, you must use some manner of extra effort to prevent yourself from being skewered. That extra effort hurts, but the pain of the bodily strain is worth it if you prevent your own death.

In the case of magic or exceptional armor, some or all of the attack may be absorbed/deflected without causing the wearer pain/effort. In other words, no HP loss, because they didn't have to summon physical effort to protect themselves. Something else did the work. Of course, now we could get into armor damage that doesn't happen in NWN, but when it comes to magic, you're not going to have that damage anyway.

When Frodo took the hit and passed out, he lost HP. The mithril may have prevented him from being entirely skewered, but his own body also absorbed a great deal of the blow. In the case of Shiff and the magic shirt, "B"s body wasn't absorbing any of the blow unless Shiff did more damage than the Magic barrier could contain.

P.S. knowing who you were up against, I suspect the real issue was AC, not the DR from that "shirt." In which case "B" was simply too quick for Shiff to hit.

[ShiffDrgnhrt]

Shiff's AB is +29, and "B" Ac he told me was 36? I didnt Roll less then 7 every time...

[Gulnyr]

What are you arguing, exactly, Shiff? That people should act hurt when they aren't? You seem to have gotten defensive suddenly about what should or shouldn't hurt, though I could just be misreading.

Act hurt all you want, I say. I don't think anyone will be upset. I won't. The next time a giant hits your character, stop fighting and fall down from the tremendous power behind that blow. Probably good stuff, really. Nice RP. I would cheer that as excellent, once, even as I thought you were kind of a dufus. And twice, there would be no more "kind of" and I would be rolling my eyes instead of cheering, probably. It's easy to overdo that kind of stuff.

Magic is magic, in the end, and there can't be any requirement for people to act hurt in a world where having a single hit point remaining leaves you just as dangerous and capable as you were when you started fighting. There are only abstractions, and nothing will be perfectly sensible within the system.

I've been on hit points so much because I think you have to know what they represent before you can understand how something might not hurt in a 'real life' consideration of the events. Milt's rehash is a good one.

[ShiffDrgnhrt]

The armor of B, who was Tobias btw (not using epic dodge), had on Master Adventurer's Armor with +3 Soak 10 Whatever Damage Reduction. I'm talking about If I smack him with a Freaking Tree, He's gonna feel it, even if he aint bleeding.

[Gulnyr]

And if a giant hits your character on Dregar with his tree-like axe? Or with that enormous boulder he threw? And if you have three hit points left, which is certainly a bad situation in which you should have broken bones and a concussion and a collapsed lung? How often should we RP these things?

I totally get what you're saying, but in the end, it's all an abstraction. If people RP that something hurt when it didn't do any hit point damage, great. If not, great. It can't be forced.

[miltonyorkcastle]

What I'm saying is, with enough magic, you might not feel the tree.

With just some "normal" armor, you'd feel the tree, certainly. With magic... well, it's magic.


EDIT: man, I must type slow.

[Gulnyr]

Even with normal armor, though, if a character doesn't lose hit points, it didn't really do anything serious. I know that can seem screwy.

To try to tie in the hit point stuff from before, imagine that Terrence Treeswinger swings a tree at Stephanie Standingthere. If it's a miss, maybe Stephanie dodged it with little effort. If it's a hit, Stephanie loses hit points, but maybe she still dodged the tree. Yes, I did in fact say that she still dodged the tree, despite being hit. It just happens that this dodge was more strenuous, so it cost some hit points, which represent training and endurance as much or more than cuts sustainable. So mechanically, she was nailed, but 'realistically' she dodged with great effort.

If we're talking about swinging trees and throwing boulders, I think it's probably best to assume the 'effort to dodge' angle instead of the 'nailed by something stupidly enormous' one. Lot of assumption in an abstract system. It gets hairy.

This doesn't have anything to do with magic stuff. It's magic. It just works. Asking how or why magic works seems like an exercise in futility and frustration. That's irritating, I know. The scientist in me gets upset. I tell the scientist to relax about abstract systems and magical armor.

[miltonyorkcastle]

Well put, Gulnyr.

[Desicardo]

Along the lines of the magic bonuses referencing LOR, when Gandolf got hit with the flame lash whip from the Balrog on the bridge, he didn't take damage due to magical protection even though all he was wearing was his robes. The magic took the blow even though it strained him to hold up the shield against the force put against it. The drain of the combat was quite evident even though Gandolf never actually took physical damage from the Balrog. So would it be considered that Gandolf took hp hits due to fatigue from the combat (before the bridge collapse) or did he have full hp at the end and only drained of magical energy and in need of rest?

[miltonyorkcastle]

I'd say both. Drained in magical power and drained of some HP.

[darkstorme]

As for the Mithril armour forged by Kobal that you were talking about, Shiff, think about the level of craftsmanship going into that armour. This isn't just your average suit of scale mail, links forged together "close enough". This is going to be a masterpiece of the forge. Intricate cuts and sockets make it move easily with the body beneath it, but lock tight as a stone wall when a blow strikes it from the outside.

I'd presume that Master Adventurer's armour would have some spells built into it that account for that Soak 10 damage, or at least part of it. For the rest, imagine a suit of thick leather, impossibly well-made (bear in mind, virtually nothing ever developed in real life is designed to absorb the kind of damage these outfits do). If a magic field absorbed some of the hit, padding and thick leather could distribute the rest across a section of the body that would feel, at most, a minor blow. A punch on the arm, instead of a bone-crushing hit. Certainly not something someone accustomed to receiving wounds would allow to slow them down - nor likely even notice until well afterwards, when they're bathing and wonder where that bruise came from.

Plus, as Gulnyr put it, the randomness of the damage roll comes from the fact that your opponent is moving, and you're trying to take a swing at them while they're attacking you. You're not going to land the best hit you could, in that situation - or maybe you'll get lucky, and hit them somewhere it hurts (ie. Critical Hit). Most of the time, though, your blows will be glancing, not mortal.

Finally, the LoTR example - at that point, Frodo was, perhaps, level 4, if that. Probably a rogue, so not much by way of hit points. Troll comes in, and hits him dead on (a critical hit!) for fifty points of damage. However, Frodo's mithril armour is rated at a Soak 26, so more than half of that blow is absorbed. The remainder is enough to throw him off his feet, across the room, and knock him out... but had it been Gimli wearing the mithril, you can bet he would've grabbed the spear pressing into his chest, yanked it close, and given the troll a taste of Dwarven steel. If you're tough enough to survive the damage dealt you, then it's not likely to throw you much of anywhere. If there's no damage dealt - then you've not been hurt, simple as that.

[Gulnyr]

Originally Posted by Desicardo

Along the lines of the magic bonuses referencing LOR, when Gandolf got hit with the flame lash whip from the Balrog on the bridge, he didn't take damage due to magical protection even though all he was wearing was his robes. The magic took the blow even though it strained him to hold up the shield against the force put against it. The drain of the combat was quite evident even though Gandolf never actually took physical damage from the Balrog. So would it be considered that Gandolf took hp hits due to fatigue from the combat (before the bridge collapse) or did he have full hp at the end and only drained of magical energy and in need of rest?

Could be either, or even something different that I can't imagine right now. Maybe, heh. The scene is a lot like the fluff text of a CDT where we can see the cool things that happened without knowing anything about the rolls behind it.

One way to imagine it is that he was totally protected by magic, but was exhausted after a while because magic takes a lot of effort. Another way is to imagine that he was protected for the most part, but still lost hit points due to fatigue and could have eventually been too exhausted (low hit points), maybe with a few minor injuries, to properly defend himself and avoid one more blow, which would have actually done serious physical harm.

That brings up Layonara magic. As far as I've seen, using magic in Layonara is not exhausting. It doesn't seem to take a lot of effort. A caster can cast three million buffs over the course of two minutes and run off like he just got off the couch. When casters are out of or low on spells, they aren't tired; they just say, "Nope, can't do that right now." So, if that LotR scene was on Layonara, without getting in-depth and considering the nature of protective spells here and whatnot, I would say he was losing hit points.

[Jaigan]

hehe, I knew gimili would end up in this thread sooner or later.

As for random rolls for attack think baseball, just because they CAN hit homeruns they don't hit them all the time sometimes its a grounder to first base and your out sometimes you catch it head on and its a hommer (crit)

[ShiffDrgnhrt]

Originally Posted by Gulnyr

Could be either, or even something different that I can't imagine right now. Maybe, heh. The scene is a lot like the fluff text of a CDT where we can see the cool things that happened without knowing anything about the rolls behind it.

One way to imagine it is that he was totally protected by magic, but was exhausted after a while because magic takes a lot of effort. Another way is to imagine that he was protected for the most part, but still lost hit points due to fatigue and could have eventually been too exhausted (low hit points), maybe with a few minor injuries, to properly defend himself and avoid one more blow, which would have actually done serious physical harm.

That brings up Layonara magic. As far as I've seen, using magic in Layonara is not exhausting. It doesn't seem to take a lot of effort. A caster can cast three million buffs over the course of two minutes and run off like he just got off the couch. When casters are out of or low on spells, they aren't tired; they just say, "Nope, can't do that right now." So, if that LotR scene was on Layonara, without getting in-depth and considering the nature of protective spells here and whatnot, I would say he was losing hit points.

To be honest, if I was writing a book on a Layo Quest, Sorcerers (Gandalf is "no conjurer of cheap tricks" but he has no spell book! he a sorc) would be worn out since they ARE putting effort into spells. Wizards are reading some words and making gestures.

[Tobias]

I think it does not matter what "B" was wearing because even in the second fight when "B" took off his clothing and but on a different set "A" still didn't score a hit due to a +47 parry! that "B" was using.

And its not the fact that "A" didn't hurt "B", "B" might feel a little sore in the morning.

Also you were fighting in expertise mode which hampered your attacking.


The battle could of gone differently where Shiff could of came out on top. Just think of it as Tobias err I mean "B" was more prepared for what he was getting himself into then "A" was that day.

Oh! And don't judge a book by its cover. *nods sagely and hides his bags of tricks*

[ShiffDrgnhrt]

Shut up you I'll get you yet *grins*

[Chongo]

Oh geez... here we were talking about how in real life blunt trauma the aorta does rupture and the apple really does fall off the tree branch (seriously folks, don't think the seatbelt can save you from everything)... versus the magic of the lands as well as the best explanation of hitpoints I have seen, from Gulnyr (despite the animations we unfortunately see).

And then the parry ego comes in. I'm tempted to say 'time to fight a real rogue'... but then I realize that ego is a vicious cycle... as I then look down the line at Kobal and Angela. And were there DT's in PvP... you'd see Ket swallowing and choking down some rotten Beryl dust along with his own ego.

It's a vicious cycle Toby... dont' get sucked in!!!

[LightlyFrosted]

I think the words 'abstract system' have to be said here. Sure there's a little animation that we shed blood every time we get hit, but Gulnyr said it best - just because we got 'hit' doesn't mean we're hit. It just means that our capacity to resist or avoid damage has been lowered, and we're getting closer to going into shock.

Realistically, the human body can only take so much punishment. No matter how strong or tough you are, we're practically riddled with areas that, if you get a good jab at them, can lead to major complications and death. It's possible you get cut up saber fencing, or it's possible that you don't actually start bleeding until 'badly wounded'. The trick is, you're not able to dodge blows quite as quickly, because maybe you got nicked, or maybe you're getting tired.

If someone swings a big, BIG sword at you, and connects, you're going to be pretty badly hurt. If someone fires a crossbow at an unarmoured bit of you, it's going to hurt. A lot. A lot of the time, when we get hit, we don't get hit - we just barely manage to avoid getting hit, or we get grazed. Our armour ablates the blow, and we lose a little bit of the energy, the vitality, the dumb luck or divine favour that our hitpoints represent.

Another way of looking at it is hitpoints as the ability to avoid going into shock. You aren't bleeding out until you can't stop yourself from bleeding out, after all; when your body has taken so much, or you've lost just enough of that spark that you're rendered helpless and dying.

What this says about healing potions (heavy narcotics?) and healing kits I'm not sure I want to know....

[Tobias]

*Scribbles on on some parchment "Need Beryl dust"*

Toby's is not the best fighter, heck I wouldn't even call him a decent fighter. Does Toby know that yet? He will once Hardragh drags him to the arena and completly owns him with a single chant. Or a level 10 mage casts fear that sends poor Toby screaming for his long lost mommy.

So no.. I will not be sucked in by ego! And I will go looking for that rotten Beryl dust today!

[ShiffDrgnhrt]

Shiff has some *snickers*

[DMOE]

Originally Posted by LightlyFrosted

Another way of looking at it is hitpoints as the ability to avoid going into shock. You aren't bleeding out until you can't stop yourself from bleeding out, after all; when your body has taken so much, or you've lost just enough of that spark that you're rendered helpless and dying.

I like that!

Having spent various amounts of times around re-enactors.....who try and beat each other to death (as safely as possible) in full plate and using real although rarely (note I say rarely) sharp swords.....

Adrenaline.....

Pure and simple....

I've seen these guys fight like demons, win, laugh, joke, enjoy their victory and literally collapse as the walk off the field and the adrenaline goes

Let's be honest guys.....If your fighting for your life, instinct and training will take over......at least until the danger passes and THEN the broken arm is gonna hurt like hell!!

[EdTheKet]

That brings up Layonara magic. As far as I've seen, using magic in Layonara is not exhausting.

Using magic in the NWN version is not exhausting, but that's a system thing., you just get your spells based on DnD rules and that's it. If NWN came with a mana or stamina thing, then it would of course drain from that. But it's NWN, so it doesn't.


As for dragon scales, they're tough, and they're magical (i.e. some dragons have fire resistance, others have acid resistance etc.).

[ShiffDrgnhrt]

Ed, may I ask another question since you are the Lore Master?

The metal armors, Adamantium, Cobalt, Mithril... Magical or just super strong?

[Hellblazer]

Originally Posted by EdTheKet

If NWN came with a mana or stamina thing, then it would of course drain from that. But it's NWN, so it doesn't.

( i know your speaking of sriptin there Ed)

But ingame rp wise I qualify the fact that after using up your amount of spells and then having no magic left, is the "mana" part of NWN. And basically you get more spell with level ups so your "mana" goes up too.

a small edit:

about freldo, he did not get hit straight on with the spear, instead he got hit with the guard of the spear (the part that stops a body from going past the point it self)

more like a half hit if you ask me (the spear itself hit the wall in between his arm and the body, the guard crushed him on the wall taking his breath out)