Death and Memories

[vgn]

I was going to make a poll, but couldn't figure out how so instead this is just a request for opinions.

Layonara and many RPGs allow characters to die and then they are brought back, either through spells (raise dead, resurrection) or through the magic of the bind stones.

The question is, how much do you remember of death and the moments leading up to it? Does it depend on how you were brought back to the land of the living?

Do you keep all of the memories up until the moment you are at 0 HP?
Do you keep all of the memories up until the moment you are at -10 HP?
Is there perhaps memory loss of those last few moments?
Does it depend on how sudden the death was?
Do you know how you died? What if you are conscious when the death happens?

Ultimately, what I'd really like to know, is in a world where anyone can breath life again after practically any death (except that final soul strand) is it possible for an assassin or serial killer to remain unknown?

In the real world if someone decides to secretly kill someone, it's quite possible the perpetrator of the crime may not be known for a long time and sometimes not ever.

In a game with life after death however, do you always come back knowing that person who did you in? Does an assassin have to wait until you are sleeping? Does he have to make arrangements to render you unconscious before his presence is known?

Curious and twisted minds want to know what you think?

[stragen]

Originally Posted by vgn

Do you keep all of the memories up until the moment you are at -10 HP?

At zero HP the character falls unconscious. So anything done to a character that was 'bleeding to death' or 'stablised' would not be sensed by the character.

I won't comment on the other stuff.

[Acacea]

I don't think there is any hard answer either way, as I think it depends and should largely be open to interpretation. I think there are situations where a person's memory of recent death will be haunting and unclear, yes. I also think there are situations where they may very well remember nothing BUT the face of their killer, the image burned into their brains with the murder. Likewise when your HP is in the negatives, everything may be lost in a haze of blood, or in some particular situation everything may be starkly, frighteningly clear and yet you are unable to move, unable to speak...

I do think that assassins always seek to eliminate their target without being seen. Bindstones don't really affect this at all. The only assassins I would say it makes a big difference to are hired thugs and Ca'duzite assassins, and all evil gods have similar problems anyway. Ca'duz is all about the long-laid revenge and the final knife twisting reveal. With the bindstones, you just have to adjust it. Cause death repeatedly, if necessary! Without being discovered. Be a trusted friend. Don't dress in black and skull masks and hurl insults and glorify your deity. Come to their aid on the last strand, cut it, and smile and be the only one that knows. That's the best Ca'duz can do with bound souls when it comes to the reveal, unfortunately - final strands. Hired thugs are usually brutish enough that they never bothered hiding themselves when giving a beating, anyway. Intimidation is a good friend.

For normal killers and assassins though, paranoia is your best friend. No one but the most egotistical should want to risk any accidents, and should take all possible precautions to avoid being caught out even if the knife slips. At the risk of sounding creepy, there are a variety of ways to kill someone without them detecting your identity.

So... in my opinion, while there may very well be times that someone brought back from death has but a muddled recollection of what occurred, no would-be assassin should ever rely on that, because with magic and people gifted with the healing of the mind, even unwanted memories can be dredged from nightmares. How many assassinations take place face to face for there to be a memory of? That's just silly.

The problem is not really the bindstones, but the fact that PCs have more defenses than commoners, and have to be open to the concept. Poison their food and have them roll a fort save... aha, dying! Oops, cleric. Bah. Thrown dagger in the night! Arg, deflect missiles. Sneak up behind... ack, it's a ranger. Like most evil characters, you will rely on the goodwill of your fellow players to let you have your fun. That's how several more evil characters climb up the ladder, really - players turning a blind eye to even the obvious to avoid ruining it for others.

So really, respawn would be the last on my list of concerns about my identity, unless I am an extremely sloppy murderer. My concerns are more like "Can I actually BEAT anybody?" The death attack from the PrC is useful for incapacitation, at least. So... assassin sure, serial killer, probably not. Most serial killers seem to very much like their victims knowing their murderers, which doesn't fly with respawning. But you can always be creative with it. Er, well, not too creative. Ratings and all that. But creative with the particular...mindset and methodology of a killer. Masks, games, whatever. There is no reason for bindstones to ruin an identity if PCs let you play secret and you don't suck at it. It will just be less 'satisfying' and less profitable, as any assassin hired to pick off a PC will find payment is a long time in coming if it is not meant as a one-time threat.

((Regarding resurrection, that is a very powerful spell and not all THAT common outside of the playerbase... there are a few select and uncommon poisons that can prevent a corpse from being raised with the lesser form of the spell, but not resurrection unless it was a final strand that was cut with it, I believe. Any evil villain is pretty much guaranteed to not last forever, though - the best to hope for is that the goal is achieved and that they leave a mark before they are revealed. The ultimate goal is to be the one that was never caught, but that is a rare thing indeed.))

[minerva]

My thought is that an assassin would have to render you not only dead but keep you that way for the 3 day period to which you become unraisable.

Discussed that scenerio above with Ed when planning Vin's WL and the potential of him assassinating one of the key NPCs.

For PC's and bind stones I would think the person would have to have a good spot to know who it was without metagaming the floaty text of the person that did them in. If you were stabbed in the back or shot with an arrow or poisoned .. you might not know who it was.

To me -1 HP is knocked out...unconscious.

[Pseudonym]

I haven't got my PHB with me (being at work and all) but if I remember correctly, under the PnP rules, your character is unconscious between -1 to -9 HPs but regains consciousness if and when they stabilise and regain at least one HP back towards 0.

Edit: Mind you, that is not reflected in the mechanics of NwN but i'd imagine at least opens up the possibility - for RP purposes - that your character was able to perceive events unfolding around them at this time of watching your HPs slowly crawl back towards the positive.

[Gulnyr]

Originally Posted by minerva

My thought is that an assassin would have to render you not only dead but keep you that way for the 3 day period to which you become unraisable.

Regarding the part I bolded in the quote above, does that refer only and specifically to the usual spells PCs can cast to raise the dead, or to all forms of dead raising short of visiting the Soul Mother to negotiate? It seems like the latter, since the full text of Minerva's post was not specific to PCs, and NPCs may have access to resources PCs don't.

Would any spell or ritual performed after the three day period that returned some semblance of life to a body automatically create an undead being? Or, to ask it another way, the only way to return 'life' to a body after three days (not including a visit to and successful negotiation with the Soul Mother) is to create something undead?

Is the three day limit something characters would or could know? It just seems odd that it would be strictly OOC info, but I'd rather ask first than just assume and start tossing things around IC that I shouldn't.

[Dorganath]

Under "normal" circumstances, after three days, one's soul becomes irretrievable, having either been claimed by a deity or been set adrift through the Pits to be consumed by one of the denizens or drawn to the Thread (as given in the Cosmology FAQ).

Of course, there are cases (mostly with NPCs) where a soul is "stuck" for plot/story purposes, but in general this holds true.

The three-day thing is typically an OOC piece of knowledge, as not even those who are most gifted and knowledgeable about the planes and the Cosmology in general wouldn't know about the handling of souls, unless some Heavenly messenger spelled it out for someone.

[minerva]

well, when I was discussing it with Ed he seemed to think the 3 day thing was a known thing - maybe a cleric would not know WHY after a period of time a body becomes unraisable - the concept of soul strands and the like not a tangible piece of knowledge, but the time frame could be. Clerics with the ability to raise the fallen would afterall be a fairly uncommon thing in the ranks of local or common clergy ...

[Gulnyr]

Originally Posted by Dorganath

The three-day thing is typically an OOC piece of knowledge, as not even those who are most gifted and knowledgeable about the planes and the Cosmology in general wouldn't know about the handling of souls, unless some Heavenly messenger spelled it out for someone.

What I was imagining is actually shared information between those who can raise the dead. Regardless of how rarely the prayers for raising are used, it seems that some rough estimates would develop over the centuries whether anyone knew of what is beyond Layonara or not. I mean 'rough estimate' as in 'if he's been dead more than a couple of days, this might not do anything,' which just adds to whatever other difficulties come with that sort of thing.

For the rest, it would be generally true to say, OOCly and disregarding any crazy negotiation ideas, that no one dead more than three days has any chance of returning to life unless by DM intervention through a plot approved to conform to world lore, and even then, that would be some serious event, magic/miracle-wise, right?

[Dorganath]

Oh, well I suppose there might be some word-of-mouth base on emprical trials...priests and priestesses attempting to raise long-dead bodies and such.

There is of course a slight issue with time frames, as for a long time we operated under D&D standards, which state up to 10 years per caster level (for Resurrection) can pass before an individual cannot be raised, and I think there have been quest situations where this has come into play. It's somewhat disjointed having us translate things to a different cosmomogy and way of handling departed souls, so it is rather difficult to give a definitive answer on that.

Even so...if you look at RL time and translate that into game time, there's been quite a bit of time passed where someone might have start to notice a time limit, though they would not know why such a limit exists.

[EdTheKet]

Originally Posted by minerva

well, when I was discussing it with Ed he seemed to think the 3 day thing was a known thing - maybe a cleric would not know WHY after a period of time a body becomes unraisable - the concept of soul strands and the like not a tangible piece of knowledge, but the time frame could be. Clerics with the ability to raise the fallen would afterall be a fairly uncommon thing in the ranks of local or common clergy ...

Correct, over the years/centuries people would've come to the conclusion that after a certain period it's not working anymore.

[lonnarin]

Of course when you drink as much as Earl, one might lose consciousness at any time well above 0 hp, and "awake" means being consistantly in a semi-conscious state of wild hallucinatory delusions.