Shadowdancers

[EdTheKet]

There has been some unclarity about the Shadowdancer class, or at least things have been left unclear. This post remedies that for the most part, although everyone should realize that a 100% fit is not going to be possible due to Layonara moving away from D&D.

In the new Cosmology (which is not that new anymore) there is no longer a Shadow Plane. In fact, there never was one.
This poses a bit of a problem for the Shadowdancer class, as some abilities of this class were rooted in the Plane of Shadow.

This post intends to clarify that situation, in summary, most abilities of the Shadowdancer will be seen as spells like how the sorceror class has spells (except in contrast to the sorceror, you can be trained to be an SD. Training can vary per individual and is up to the GM running the CDQ)). Others will be physical or mental abilities.

- Hide in Plain Sight: this is a combination of being good at hiding and using whatever is available as cover, as well as a form of invisibility (so a combo of magic and physical means)
- Darkvision: purely physical
- (Improved) Evasion: physical
- Uncanny Dodge: physical
- Shadow Daze: a spell
- Summon Shadow: a shadow is summoned from a lower frequency world, see here http://forums.layonara.com/layonara-...ology-faq.html
These are not undead (although NWN says they are). They are also not “shadow elementals” (i.e. they are not creatures of solidified shadow).
- Shadow Evade: spell, kind of like a concealment spell, but then more like blending in with shadows instead of becoming blurry
- Defensive roll: physical
- Slippery Mind: physical/mental

Shadowdancers who RP that they make shadows dance by making gestures with fingers and hands are merely good at manipulating light and shadow. They cannot make other people’s shadow move or something like that.

Note regarding The Veil: her additional powers stem from the successful completion of a WLDQ. Future shadowdancers will not necessarily gain the same powers, nor replace or succeed The Veil, nor necessarily deal with the same entities that gave her her powers.

[Alatriel]

So to further clarify, Shadowdancers do not step into a shadow and out of another. They can be shrouded by shadows to create an illusion of invisibility, but the strength of their illusion is based on how well they themselves can physically hide (h/ms). It is a mental ability that allows them to physically control the shadows, and while shadowdaze and shadow evade may be seen as a spell (mechanically in the game they have to cast for it to go off), it could be explained that it is a mental force of will that controls the shadows into a more physical and solid form? Or are you saying that it actually is a spell?

[EdTheKet]

Originally Posted by Alatriel

So to further clarify, Shadowdancers do not step into a shadow and out of another. They can be shrouded by shadows to create an illusion of invisibility, but the strength of their illusion is based on how well they themselves can physically hide (h/ms). It is a mental ability that allows them to physically control the shadows,

No, there's no physical control of shadows, no physical/solid shadow matter or anything. They cast an invisibility-like spell/illusion and use any cover that is available.

shadowdaze and shadow evade may be seen as a spell (mechanically in the game they have to cast for it to go off), it could be explained that it is a mental force of will that controls the shadows into a more physical and solid form? Or are you saying that it actually is a spell?

I am saying it is actually a spell, not solidified shadow.

[Alatriel]

thank you that helps a lot!
~E

[Hellblazer]

Aye it does.

[akata]

Originally Posted by EdTheKet

- Hide in Plain Sight: this is a combination of being good at hiding and using whatever is available as cover, as well as a form of invisibility (so a combo of magic and physical means)
- Shadow Daze: a spell
- Summon Shadow: a shadow is summoned from a lower frequency world, see here http://forums.layonara.com/layonara-...ology-faq.html
These are not undead (although NWN says they are). They are also not "shadow elementals" (i.e. they are not creatures of solidified shadow).
- Shadow Evade: spell, kind of like a concealment spell, but then more like blending in with shadows instead of becoming blurry

Can a caster counterspell these abilities?

[Thief Of Navarre]

Originally Posted by akata

Can a caster counterspell these abilities?

Extremely good question! I'd like to know a well

[Hellblazer]

well no need for counter spelling when you have the right spell to see through it.

[minerva]

Can a caster counterspell these abilities?

Good question - not only an arcane/divine caster but what about another SD?

well no need for counter spelling when you have the right spell to see through it.

Nipping it in the bud so that everyone does not have to have TS to see the sneaky one would be a great advantage..

[Alatriel]

What's the point of having a sneaky character if everyone in the world can see them?

[ShiffDrgnhrt]

Sounds like someone Nerfed the Shadow Dancer...

[Dorganath]

Originally Posted by ShiffDrgnhrt

Sounds like someone Nerfed the Shadow Dancer...

Heh...no one nerfed anything. Ed made a Layonara-specific guidelines to explain Shadowdancer abilties given the break between our lore and standard D&D lore.

HiPS is a combination of hiding really well and a magic effect like invisibility. That's not saying they're casting Invisibility.

Speaking purely mechanically, no, you can't "Counterspell" Shadowdancer abilities.

Speaking in a more IC means, the art of Counterspelling involves knowing what is being cast and working against that. Even those few Shadowdancer abilities that are being described as partially or fully a magical effect are not, in actuality, the same as the spell to which they are similar.

Ed's guidelines above do not change the game mechanics at all, nor will there be any scripting or other changes to the modules as a result. These are just to tell people OOCly what these abilities are to allow so that those who play Shadowdancers can properly RP them, or perhaps more importantly, not RP things that are incorrect for our setting.

[ShiffDrgnhrt]

So in essence, unless your a Wizard Shadow Dancer, yer not likely to know how to "counter spell" HiPS? (In terms of RP I mean)

[Lord Dark]

Seems like people with Trueseeing up would not be able to see people in stealth since people in stealth usually have to resort to hiding behind some physical barrier to not be seen. But hiding behind a boulder and being caught by someone with Trueseeing would make that someone have X-Ray vision. But that's for regular rogues... I guess people hiding by useing the shadows would be seen with the sight.

[Dorganath]

No...There is no "counterspell" for HiPS.

Shadowdancers don't know "spells". They have abilities that tap the Al'Noth on a more instinctual level, which is why Ed mentioned Sorcerers in his parallel rather than wizards. So no, there will be no RPed "countering" of HiPS. True Seeing pierces through it, but that's exactly the mechanics we have had since the beginning.

As I said, Shadowdancers do not mechanically work any differently than they did before. People should not read any more into it than what Ed wrote above.

[Gulnyr]

Originally Posted by Dorganath

People should not read any more into it than what Ed wrote above.

To be fair, I don't think anyone did. Ed specifically said, "I am saying it is actually a spell." If it's a spell - not instinctual - then it seems it involves casting and could potentially be counterable. I'm not arguing with the response since it makes perfect sense - just like a Monk's SR can't be countered or dispelled because it isn't cast and isn't a spell, a Shadowdancer's abilities can't be countered or dispelled because they aren't cast and aren't spells; I'm just saying no one has read more than was stated.

[Dorganath]

Originally Posted by Lord Dark

Seems like people with Trueseeing up would not be able to see people in stealth since people in stealth usually have to resort to hiding behind some physical barrier to not be seen. But hiding behind a boulder and being caught by someone with Trueseeing would make that someone have X-Ray vision. But that's for regular rogues... I guess people hiding by useing the shadows would be seen with the sight.

In D&D mechanics, non HiPS hiding requires obstacles and True Seeing does not reveal such, but then neither can a hiding rogue walk out in the open and remain hidden. Shadowdancers can use any shadow to hide within under D&D mechanics and this is listed as a "supernatural" ability. The spell True Seeing does not, as I said, reveal hidden opponents, only those that are invisible or otherwise cloaked in Illusion magic.

NWN mechanics differ, in that the engine cannot support line-of-sight for determination of whether someone is hiding successfully or not, nor does it support the presence of real shadows (especially since you can turn them off in the client for performance reasons). Because hiding, whether HiPS or not, allows someone to "sneak" in the open, then True Seeing was altered by Bioware to reveal hidden PCs and other hidden creatures for reasons of balance.

So yes, while what you said "makes sense", it's not how NWN was implemented.

[Hellblazer]

Originally Posted by minerva

Nipping it in the bud so that everyone does not have to have TS to see the sneaky one would be a great advantage..

That is the point of having things that can not be counter spelled or seen easily. That is what give that class it's uniqueness. If every one could be able to see through Hips, which there is a very conventional way of doing that doesn't require spells. Then what is the point entirely? What would you say if, we took the ability of a wizard to learn spells, or the abilities of paladins to resist fear?

It's like if you gave every fighter the way to be able to counter spell mages every single time. Or every undead the ability to resist all clerics spells, if you get my drift. Not every thing has to be handed down to someone so they can have the upper hand in every situations. If so, then lets just all create fighters, that can cast all spells, and resist all spells, not get damage from anyone and have a very homogeneous and linear game.

I'm rather pushing it here yes I know. But really, don't take away what makes a class unique, because it pauses problems to the other classes. If someone really intend to train his char to be a Sd hunter then there is skills he can develop at the expense of other skills to do just that.

EDIT:

I might sound a bit touchy about it here, and yes I may be due to the time invested into becoming a shadow dancer. But Hips is the only Real good thing a shadowdancer gets as an ability, beside shadow evade, which is in my opinion the Ultimate SD ability in a combat sense. And beside the Rp that can come from the class it self.

Originally Posted by Dorganath

In D&D mechanics, non HiPS hiding requires obstacles and True Seeing does not reveal such, but then neither can a hiding rogue walk out in the open and remain hidden. Shadowdancers can use any shadow to hide within under D&D mechanics and this is listed as a "supernatural" ability. The spell True Seeing does not, as I said, reveal hidden opponents, only those that are invisible or otherwise cloaked in Illusion magic.

NWN mechanics differ, in that the engine cannot support line-of-sight for determination of whether someone is hiding successfully or not, nor does it support the presence of real shadows (especially since you can turn them off in the client for performance reasons). Because hiding, whether HiPS or not, allows someone to "sneak" in the open, then True Seeing was altered by Bioware to reveal hidden PCs and other hidden creatures for reasons of balance.

So yes, while what you said "makes sense", it's not how NWN was implemented.

*blunted out and sprayed with digitalized liquid paper* //I misread what Dorg was saying there eh! happens.

[akata]

Originally Posted by Dorganath

No...There is no "counterspell" for HiPS.

Shadowdancers don't know "spells". They have abilities that tap the Al'Noth on a more instinctual level, which is why Ed mentioned Sorcerers in his parallel rather than wizards. So no, there will be no RPed "countering" of HiPS. True Seeing pierces through it, but that's exactly the mechanics we have had since the beginning.

As I said, Shadowdancers do not mechanically work any differently than they did before. People should not read any more into it than what Ed wrote above.

The question was meant purely rp-wise
But if shadowdancers tap into the Al'Noth. Then how are they effected by magic dead places such as The Great Rift?

[EdTheKet]

People seem to be missing this:

This post remedies that for the most part, although everyone should realize that a 100% fit is not going to be possible due to Layonara moving away from D&D.

HiPS is a combination of hiding really well and a magic effect like invisibility. That's not saying they're casting Invisibility.

Correct, else I would have stated that they would be casting Invisibility.

Speaking purely mechanically, no, you can't "Counterspell" Shadowdancer abilities.

Speaking in a more IC means, the art of Counterspelling involves knowing what is being cast and working against that. Even those few Shadowdancer abilities that are being described as partially or fully a magical effect are not, in actuality, the same as the spell to which they are similar.

Correct.

Ed's guidelines above do not change the game mechanics at all, nor will there be any scripting or other changes to the modules as a result. These are just to tell people OOCly what these abilities are to allow so that those who play Shadowdancers can properly RP them, or perhaps more importantly, not RP things that are incorrect for our setting.

Correct, emphasize added by me.

Shadowdancers don't know "spells". They have abilities that tap the Al'Noth on a more instinctual level, which is why Ed mentioned Sorcerers in his parallel rather than wizards. So no, there will be no RPed "countering" of HiPS. True Seeing pierces through it, but that's exactly the mechanics we have had since the beginning.

Correct. If you want to detect somebody who is under HiPS, then you can still try to listen for them for example (RP wise).

But if shadowdancers tap into the Al'Noth. Then how are they effected by magic dead places such as The Great Rift?

Abilties classified as spell shouldn't function there.

[Aerimor]

To clarify because clarity is a good thing.

In a magic dead area.

HiPS does work as you did not classify it as a "Spell". We can roleplay why its working if we like. But through some trick, the SD gets you to stop looking at them long enough to get out of sight. (Bluff, smoke bomb, throwing something at the target to get them to duck, ducking behind a rock/building/fighter long enough to let the SD do what it is they do.)

Shadow Daze, does not work.

Summon Shadow continues to work if summoned before entering the magic dead area, but can not be summoned within one.

Shadow Evade does not work.

This aptly sum it up for functionality?


And another class that uses HiPS, follows the same rules as above. Thus can also use their HiPs in magic dead area, and can role play why it works in a believable non magic way.


Thanks in advanced.

[EdTheKet]

Originally Posted by Aerimor

To clarify because clarity is a good thing.

In a magic dead area.

HiPS does work as you did not classify it as a "Spell". We can roleplay why its working if we like. But through some trick, the SD gets you to stop looking at them long enough to get out of sight. (Bluff, smoke bomb, throwing something at the target to get them to duck, ducking behind a rock/building/fighter long enough to let the SD do what it is they do.)

Shadow Daze, does not work.

Summon Shadow continues to work if summoned before entering the magic dead area, but can not be summoned within one.

Shadow Evade does not work.

This aptly sum it up for functionality?


And another class that uses HiPS, follows the same rules as above. Thus can also use their HiPs in magic dead area, and can role play why it works in a believable non magic way.


Thanks in advanced.

Exactemundo!

[EdTheKet]

Originally Posted by ShiffDrgnhrt

Sounds like someone Nerfed the Shadow Dancer...

And I find comments like this neither respectful, nor constructive, so I would like to be spared those.