State of Layonara and its Future

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AeridiniteCorathiteDruidRofireinite
Joined: Jun 9 2006

As of my post right now, this thread here had 772 views and Chongo's thread about the new update had 103 views. Really should be the other way round, stop reading this and go have a look! It is both relevant and inspiring.


http://forums.layonara.com/general-discussion/117182-final-stroke-v3.html


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RofireiniteXeenite
Joined: Jun 8 2005

I'd like to know why I(formerly, of course) and a number of other contributing members of the Project Team who aren't on your list of members of the company weren't consulted for coming on as a member of that. Were we not meeting your standards? Or were we just too loose of cannons for you to "trust?" Most importantly, were you planning on making money from content that we had produced while at the same time not making us part of your "company?"


If you wonder, yes I was informed by people about this sudden revelation and I feel it necessary to return and state that I find it a bit insulting that this shadow game was played with what I believed my content was going to be; a part of the donate-at-will NWN Layonara community. Were you going to use it at all, or was I wasting my time?


Had you approached everyone on the project teams with an offer to join your company, then this would not have been an issue, I think. I feel that the way you handled this was a mistake, and the least you can do is offer positions to the still-contributing members of the teams who are not on your list of official Layonara Studios "personnel" as you may have it. But as time has demonstrated, my feelings matter very little in regard to the actions you've taken and will take and that is, naturally, entirely your prerogative.


I feel that darkwulf is justified in his actions, despite that it means rewriting a significant chunk of Layonara history. Don't snub some of your contributors, and you won't have to deal with the rug getting pulled out from under you. Had his name been #23 on your list, then I don't imagine his anger would've been incurred, and you wouldn't have a list of things he wants pulled out. If everyone not on your company list pulls out their content now, you will be getting only what you deserve, and I encourage them to do precisely that. "Board Members" aside, one should be able to expect universal regard for all contributors, or make clear why some are included and some are not. If people are good enough to offer you content that you proceed to use, they're good enough to be in your company, unless they express no desire to be. You cannot have your cake and eat it too. It's that simple.


Blackguy's picture
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LucinditeVoraxian
Joined: Jan 16 2004

I have a few more questions, as I find all this exiting.


Will this new game incooperate Static quests, or have a player accesable DM system ala. nwn?


When your saying a long time until a beta is out, are we talking 2 and half year more, or smoething within a reasonabble tmieframe since you disclosed the news now?


Are LLC studios working toghetere with a gamecompagny in cooperation to distribute and finance this game?


If yes, will it be an off the shelf game, or something more revolving an internet launch?


orth's picture
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Layonara AdministratorGamemasterKatianWriting Team Member
Joined: Jan 6 2004

Many people are and were on our "list", in fact quite a few have came and gone as part of this project. For the most part though, most non board members have only recently came aboard and we will definitely be needing more.


I am not privy to discuss the selection process for inviting existing members, but like we have done with everything, we put a lot of thought into it. You might disagree based on your personal experiences with individuals but trust there is more then you see then a forum and game presence.


We quite expected rescinding of intellectual property and community backlash, sadly "not being in the loop" seems to be the reasons for such. Once again I stress we just didn't want to promise something we weren't going to deliver.


Your IP and efforts can progress furthur into the annals of Layonara lore and history with this next generation, is that not better than fading to nwn dust? Wouldn't it mean so much to say "Yeah I was on that quest in 2005" or "I did the writeup for that" ...


A final thought for the night. If we were to close down the server due to not being able to afford things and Layonara just faded away, would that have been ethically and morally better? It's not like that reality was never raised... you don't know how close that was to being the case...


Weeblie's picture
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Joined: Dec 21 2005

Just a small question of curiosity here...


What is the current aim on the system requirements?


Low... to about the same as NWN?

Mid... as most other games today (say... WoW)?

High... cutting edge computer (with today's standards)?


OneST8's picture
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Layonara AdministratorGamemaster
Joined: Mar 23 2004

Quote:
Just a small question of curiosity here...


What is the current aim on the system requirements?


Low... to about the same as NWN?

Mid... as most other games today (say... WoW)?

High... cutting edge computer (with today's standards)?


Things like this topic of minimum hardware specs will be disclosed in future announcements.


Tialle Dianesis's picture
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Joined: Jan 29 2007

Shock-factor aside, I'm looking forward to this new Layo the team's preparing. Goodluck!


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Black Raven's picture
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Joined: Apr 10 2006

Wow, first of all I have to say this kind of makes me excited :) sounds like a nice idea. But like others theres only two things that I am worried about:


1) If this is going to be monthly paid?, I really see this helping the team with funds and such, but I honestly think it might scare away a chunk of the community (I hope it wont) with tycoon games like WoW, CoH and such. And of course, some of us sticked to nwn because it we didnt have to pay monthly. Cant speak for anyone else, but I hope that if it is going to cost per a month, I'll have to concider, but I really will do my best to stay in layo!


2) Will we be notified in ahead about system requirment and such? I understand the hush-hush about the new project, as it should be. But I would like to be prepared with software and such so the new engine could be run smoothly and without any problems. This announcment made me delay my new computer purchase just in case, so I wont have to pay again in a few months just to upgrade it.


All in all, this sounds promising, thanks for the effort and I hope the new project will be as fun as "old" Layo.


Sorry, didnt see the second page so I guess my questions are answered :) *slaps forehead*


Lord of the Forest's picture
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Folianite
Joined: Feb 6 2005

*simply continues to play and waits for announcements in the future* ;)


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Corathite
Joined: Nov 5 2004

I guess I will weigh in a bit here. For the past 2.5 years I have played on Layonara. I will be honest I have played here on the generosity of many other players. I have not donated a dime to Layonara. I admit it. As such I have always respected the house that I am playing in. If you are not willing to donate to the upkeep costs, the bills, ect... then you really have no room to complain about the way the house it kept in order. I haven't always agreed with decisions that were made on this server, but as I said this isn't my server. At any time each and everyone of us is free to not play here anymore.


Now lets think here for a moment. I am not opposed to a subscription. How many people have atleast tried WoW or one of the many other pay-per-play games? $10/month really isn't all that much when you divide that by the number of hours that you play. (or I play for that matter). And bottom line here folks is nothing is set in stone. They have merely mentioned that as a possiblility. Come on now, these hardworking folks are not trying to get rich. They have spent much time and effort into Layonara, they are trying to keep the lights on for the moochers like me to play here.


Come on people, I have contributed to the writings of Layonara. I signed the formal forms. From day one that I started working as a member of the Project Team I had to agree to a series of what is basically an informal copyright. All Leanthar and crew has done is gone through the legal process to protect what I, and MANY MANY others have contributed to the Layonara experience. I do not feel slighted, undercut or cheated in any way. Heck, I feel honored that someone thinks my "C+" High School English worthy of being published. If L and crew do not take the necessary steps to copyright their work, then they are leaving the selves vunerable to the rest of the industry taking their hardwork. I applaud your efforts.


Layonara is a family, it has been for the past 2.5 years. Nothing is chaning anytime soon. The first bite of this elephant is hard to chew on for some, give it time. Layonara is not going away today or tomorrow. Hanging in their folks Layonara unrestricted by d20 and WotC is going to be better. It will allows the community freedom to create what the vision for Layonara has always been.


*** PS, there has been many times I said, I need to donate. yah yah I know you have heard that one before, the checks in the mail. Seriously, thank you to all those who have made Layonara the place it is today. ***


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GamemasterWriting Team Member
Joined: Jan 6 2004

All questions that we can answer at this time are updated in the FAQ above.


kenty191's picture
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DruidIlsarianRofireiniteToraniteXeenite
Joined: Jan 3 2006

Three things:


1) Very excited about the upcoming changes in V3 on NWN. I think I shall have to keep my 'open-minded' head on for that but it sounds great.


2) Interested to hear of this development, despite my disagreement with the way it has been handled. My oppinion, community server, freedom of speech blah.


3) If Layonara, in it's upcoming stand alone incarnation becomes pay to play I shall not be joining it. I will pay, if it is even available in the UK, for a game (original purchase) but will not commit myself to a monthly emptying of my bank account, which is already stretched by university demands, for a game which I only have time to play occasionally during term time (again university demands).


I imagine as many of us on the server, at least who I play with, are younger (below 20) and have little disposable income to speak of a monthly fee will not even be a possibility (like myself). Consequently I can forsee a loss of a section of this admitedly 'dwindling' community which seems to be the term used together with an influx of new players. The question is will one outweigh the other? I assume Layonara Studios does not have the financial weight or market position to compete with WoW and the like and new players will be hard to sway from these dominant forces.


*Looks up at the post*


Point 3 is bigger than I imagined, I suppose that means I feel strongly about it huh?


Kenty191/Karn


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Druid
Joined: Oct 5 2004

Quote:
I for one hope it is not. I hate to see a Druid that believes it is okay to wear full plate or someone saying they are the son of Corath.

Also I believe that one will not be able to play a single player game but it will be more like WoW but sticking hard to the value of RP and realism. I am sure they will have some type of code or some other means to make sure what I said above does not happen, but giving that this will be sold around the world is kinda scary to know that it might be really hard to control what type of char is submitted.

None of this will matter any more. They are not keepin D&D rules, so D&D is out the window. I have played just about every MMORPG game out there, and they are fun for a short while, and then I always come back to NWN. I love D&D and the ruleset of D&D. I am going to give this staff the benifit of the doubt, and will play their new game. I have always enjoyed the work they have done and put into layo, and the friends I have made with them.

In the end, I will always want to fall back on D&D games. That is the sad part for me, is that they were not able to stay with D&D, but I know how Wizards of the Coast is, and I know that buisness wise it would not be smart to stay with WoC.

It is a very sad day for me, one that I knew would come. I am excited for the friends (mainly speaking about the staff) I have made here and their new ventures. I wish you guys all the best in the world, but you can't blame me for being upset for loosing the single best place I ever found to play NWN. I can start over on a pc, that doesn't bother me at all. It is going away from D&D rules.

Now I know you might say "we didn't say we are closing the server", but in short, if your other projects take off, you would be foolish to keep dumping money here.

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Druid
Joined: Apr 11 2006

at least now i know why i cant ever find someone when i need advice


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GamemasterWriting Team Member
Joined: Jan 6 2004

"....It is going away from D&D rules...."


Yeah, I hear you there. It is heart wrenching for me because I grew up on this thing and all game worlds created by me were based on these rules. But Hasbor/WoTC do not play nicely when it comes to software and such and they would not allow us to use their property. It is kind of sad though as I think it would grow their books and product line if they allow people to do games like they do for their writing; but they don't and that is just life.


Rest assured, we are all about RP and player options and choices...we just can't use D&D in the next version of Layonara, which sucks to some degree. But I REALLY like where we are taking Layonara and I think all of you will be as well.


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Lucindite
Joined: Mar 17 2006

I feel compelled to post this, as it's been eating at me a bit. Layonara is not a ruleset. It is not a gaming system or even a fantasy game. It is a community. It is a place you go to see people you like and connect in a shared way.


NwN Layonara has given me personally a chance to meet people from all over the the world and to roleplay with them. It has allowed me to make friends with people I would never have had the chance to meet in the course of my daily life.


I would ask that those who are hurt, annoyed, bewildered and otherwise angry, whatever the reasons, step back and look at your friends. They are the reason to log in, not the graphics, not the crafting, not even the quests. The people. As long as the people remain, Layo remains.


To those that aren't hurt, annoyed bewildered or angry: Give those that are some space. This is a big chunk to swallow. They have their reasons for feeling the way they do, and it is absolutely not wrong. Some of your friends may get honked off and leave, some already have. Just keep in mind, someone you don't know will submit a character tomorrow. They could be your new best friend.


As long as there is a Layonara that thrives on Roleplay, friendship and common bonds, who cares about the interface?


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FolianiteToranite
Joined: Jul 8 2005

I may be a bit biased on this one :)


Keep the submission process it is part of what assures a quality user experience and that is what a good user based software product/internet service is all about.


DMOE's picture
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MistiteToranite
Joined: Jul 5 2005

Emotions and feelings are running high right now for a variety or reasons.


I guess a major one is if it will be pay to play....I have no problems with Layonara Studios producing a pay to play game and closing the NWN server. L and others have been supporting Layonara out of their own pockets for a long time now and if they have the chance to improve things and not have to do that..Good luck to them!...I just simply won't be able to pay a monthly fee and as such I am sad to see my involvement in Layonara drawing to a close.


I do have to say that I *personally* dislike the fact that the writers were not told that there was a possibility that there work could be used for a commercial venture at some point in the future. There is a difference in my book between writing for a non-commercial venture and a commercial one.


I do understand that decision was made for a variety of reasons considered good and fair by the people having to make them, nor do I think for one moment that the intention was to use their writings for anything other than enriching the world. I do not think that the people behind Layonara Studios were trying to make big bucks off other peoples backs or anything. But, the work of those writers is going to help and enrich a commercial product and as such *I* would have told them it was a possibility.


Now all that having been said I can see how this project is going to take Layonara forward and hopefully remove the financial burden on all involved. I only hope it is all that you wish it to be upon it's completion.


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GamemasterXeenitePrunillianDruidDoranditeToranite
Joined: Oct 8 2004

I for one see these changes in an optimistic light. It is Leanthar's sacred mission to save us all from the blighted curse that is NWN2; the unholiest of unholies, the PW-breaker. Atari drew the battle-line for us all in releasing that pile of gabage, and Leanthar is leading Layo right around that obstacle. NWN1 is great, truly a classic, but it won't last forever. Making a new engine to let the world survive beyond that is a huge task that won't be easy, and competing with the other better financially-sponsored software companies out there will be hell for certain. Still, after seeing all the incredible work they've sunken into the old NWN1 engine, I look forward to see what this team can do outside the box. I also have my fingers crossed that a well published PnP handbook on Layonara's game world makes it to the game stores en masse. After visiting Sci-Fi City last weekend and seeing the quality of most 3rd party books already published and distributed, the bar is set pretty low for a team as great as this. I can name about 50 heavily published PC RPGs I've played off the top of my head which weren't as well-written as this. I predict great things for the future of Layonara, and will obsessedly chase its legacy well beyond this NWN form. You just don't go methadone once you've tasted Layo!


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DruidPrunillianVoraxian
Joined: Dec 7 2005

Would the team comment on the continuity of the world's themes and ingame PC efforts to shape the world?


For example, there has been talk of temple donations leading places. Will what the PCs do between now and the next generation "make a difference?" Or instead should we view our ingame actions as being applicable only to this version?


I mean, can players still rally the troops to accomplish IC actions that will have a longevity beyond V3? (Rebuilding of Stone, Bloodygate, temples, halfling settlements, etc.)


I, for one, like to look to the future when it comes to my PCs and that is difficult at the moment.


Thanks!

PnP


aragwen's picture
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Folianite
Joined: May 1 2005

Well I think this is very exciting and a very bold step in the right direction.


Best of luck to all those involved in making this happen, I cant wait to see the end result.


I have come to and stayed in Layo for one main purpose, friends and fun.

So as long as those continue to exist in Layo, which I firmly believe it will, I will be around.


I will continue to donate to Layo in its existing form cause it still provides me with hours of fun and some of the best online friends I have made are here.


As for the future Layo, well as long as it continues to provide fun, count me in.


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Layonara AdministratorDruidFolianiteGamemasterLucinditeWriting Team MemberXeenite
Joined: Oct 1 2004

From a lore standpoint, there will be continuity. How much of that continuity will bee seen in-game, however is a question that cannot be answered at this time.


Kirbiana's picture
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AeridiniteBeryliteGrannochian
Joined: Jan 15 2007

I agree with Aragwen, this is exciting. A new V3 update coming soon and a brand new game that we can all start playing from scratch together. Woo-hoo! I can't wait to remake all my characters and see how they'll develop differently in the 'alternate universe' version of Layonara. I want the team to know that I really feel like I am getting my money's worth from my $10 a month donation. Keep up the great work, guys!


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CorathiteRofireiniteVoraxian
Joined: Sep 28 2004

I for one am also extremely excited about this bold step.


Of course retrospectively we can all say that perhaps the way this came out was not the best nor the gentlest, yet it's out now - live with it.


The task the board has selected to try and accomplish is HUUUGE and I support the decision 101% - the result would be worth it in so many ways. The realization of this brand new world is still far far away, so things will calm and aggrevate periodically as new information surfaces.


People who have been rubbed the wrong way about this whole endeavour, should just be given space to work things out and settle with what has and will happen in the near future.


Bold move by the team and if anyone can pull it through against the odds, it's our fantastic team! Keep it up! :)


ColtCommando's picture
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Aragenite
Joined: Jan 11 2005

I dont post much, mostly becuase I have a hard time conveying my true feeling through text, and most of the time I take a good point and sabatouge it to the point of absurdity...


That being said this post and the evolution that seems to be happing so suddenly reminds me of the intro to Star Trek....


*cue awesome Star Trek into music*


Captain Dan Scott piloting the Starship Layonara...


Exploring the Universe...


Going where no player world has gone before...


All I can realy say is ... WOW


I stumbled upon this description of Layonara, on the umpteenth page of a google search for some kind of online DnD "thing"


I started way way way back in beta 2 with a charector out of some samurai video game I had just played, I had a few things to lean ;)


I was amazed then, and have been continued to be amazed as we moved out of beta versions, the world grew by leaps and bounds, the past years have fealt almost like a rollercoaster ride, and the only thing I have invested is a fraction of my time, I cant even begin to imagine what has gone on behind the scenes.


I have always hoped that Layonara would be here forever, though I knew that was rather impossible. Though If we looked back now to those first beta versions, did we realy think we were going to sqeeze five years out this one game engine? I highly doubt it.


And now I come strolling into the forum and once again I am struck with the endevour our amazing team has undertaken...


A whole new game engine!!!!


I have recently been quitely preparing my fragile psychie for the day when Layonara could go on no longer, for the day when NWN1 was just to old, and the burden of maintenance was just to much.


And now we come to find that our little piece of fantasy could quite possiblly continue for years and years to come....


Well quite frankly I am speachless, I have done nothing to deserve such dedication, and I am quite taken aback.


I look forward to role-playing in the fantasy world that is Layonara for as long as it continues to live.


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DruidMistiteVoraxian
Joined: Dec 26 2004

To Pen and Popper

I was encouraged to reopen the Bloody Gate and dwarven warparty saga once again by other players (before this was posted). And I will do it again despite the news. I will take it under my wings and try infusing some dwarven spirit in the community again.
This you can thank the community for and a recently PM from Leanthar

Leanthars PM gave me hope and I trust him and the Team 100%. Only time will tell if the effort I will continue to put in it due to some hope was worth it. For me as well.

Lastly, PnP I need your writing and gramma skills to check something I wrote. Will you help me?

jrizz's picture
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FolianiteToranite
Joined: Jul 8 2005

Quote:
I agree with Aragwen, this is exciting. A new V3 update coming soon and a brand new game that we can all start playing from scratch together. Woo-hoo! I can't wait to remake all my characters and see how they'll develop differently in the 'alternate universe' version of Layonara. I want the team to know that I really feel like I am getting my money's worth from my $10 a month donation. Keep up the great work, guys!


I really like the idea of coming into a world where we will are start at level 1 (or whatever the equiv is) and grow together. Sounds like a blast.


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Corathite
Joined: Nov 21 2005

I guess, I'm scared, shaken..


I mean, I haven't been here long, haven't contributed much (cept that time we...)

I can't afford a pay-to-play. You won't see me on WoW for a reason: its ptp.


I LOVE layo, I do.. but reading this really is like some others have said; 'a slap in the face'


I mean, if this is going to production stages, whats the point of playing from now until then. My characters are going to end. Soon. I mean.. I'm thinking 'whats the point?' I don't know if I WANT to play on Layo anymore. I can take the time I was spending here and do 'other'.. or find another player world for NWN.


I guess this is an 'I'm sorry to see it go' post, and that I see this announcement and the proceeding drop in players as the end of Layo on NWN.


I'm not sure I'm leaving I mean, I have friends staying.. we'll see what happens in the next month or so


Joyrock's picture
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Joined: May 11 2007

I am very unsure, I can only say it is a very bold move. I am unsure I will play I can only wait and see. But two things that are a big lure are a no or uncertain. namely the DnD system, and free to play. I played NWN because it was pretty much more a DnD online then DnD online that and I did not worry if I was getting my moneys worth.


While I dislike the idea of layo leaving NWN for both these reasons I understand. 5-7 servers is ALOT of money. No one can continue to constatly fit the bill for others to play it sucks that people who choose to stay won't be able to play for free, but paying $100 a month to play a game, deal with the problems, and spends several hours of the day working on it just more to ask.


It might be selfish for them to ask people to pay to play but there comes a time when this place has to pay for itself or just die out. no one wants it to just die out. Asking for people to play for a NWN server is not only against the law, but unreasonable. Layo is not free someone breaks there back's for everyone to enjoy.


We all know this hits hard I am sure as much as the team says they want this they did not want this, but must grin and bare it staying postive is the only way they will get through this. The calls been made time money, etc is all on the line Think you wasted your life playing a game, but L and others have wasted there's working so you can play it to late for them to back out.


I know many can not afford to pay-to-play but others can not afford to continue to pay for you to play, free rides are nice but they do come to a end.


I have no intentions of playing this new non DnD world at the moment, but that just because my heart is in DnD. I do support them in if I was in there shoes with 5-7 server to pay for itself and a possible way to make the game go on far longer then as a hobby you have to constatly work on and dish out cash on.


For what ever the logic, reasons, etc for doing this I feel they did it to attempt to insure layo's foture, if it dies out then it was never ment to go on, if it does work out just enough for it to continue for many years then I think there goal has been reached, and not just a goal to keep this place going but a life goal if they do make any profit enough to make a living off of has been reached. Doing what you love and making a living off it is one of the greatest feelings in the world I don't think that there goal is as much of this as much as it making layo pay for itself, but it a goal worth trying for.


If you plan to stay then stay, if you don't find like minded friends make the best of it or find away to move on together to a new home that what I will be doing. I find getting upset about something to late to stop is not only pointless, but very unsupportive to those striving for what they feel is best for the community.


kuchida's picture
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Joined: Feb 14 2007

I should really know better than to post in threads like this but..


#1, I see that this is a necessity, as NWN is a dying game. I hope the team won't be discouraged if the servers slowly depopulate and players lose enthusiasm. I'll know that I will continue to stop in to roleplay and hang out but the drive to progress my character is evaporating knowing she won't be around in a few months and (at the rate I get xp) will never be much more than she is now. Sure I can get another level, but forget ever seeing East or making Spellsword... But, I will be first in line to start fresh with a new game.


#2, I hope, on this new pay to play game, if you choose to not pay for a few months for whatever reason, your character is not deleted. That is certainly one thing that would drive me away, as well as others with shaky incomes.


#3, I don't envy the administration when people don't get their way and are paying for it. Every time a soul strand is lost or whenever there will be threats of pulling their subscription. There will be a lot less tolerance of lag and bugs. People expect customer service when they are forced to pay (as opposed to donating which is pure goodwill.) When I say "people" I mean the general public, not particularly those of us going over, but new arrivals who don't bring love and tolerance with them..


All that said I'm very happy to see this happening. I remember not too long ago when the servers had a few dozen people at least all times of day and new characters starting all the time. That's not happening now. Layonara on a dying game (NWN) simply won't bring new people in. An intelligent alternative to Warcraft just might, and it just might bring in the "right" people. Obviously it can't compete with the huge games but it doesn't HAVE to. What I always loved about Layo is the rough edges and kind of "Indie" feel. It's like seeing a great underground band in a tiny club instead of Justin Timberlake at Staples Center. As long as it can sustain itself, that is what is important.


AeonBlues's picture
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DruidLucindite
Joined: Apr 24 2006

I am not upset about moving off of D20 rules. D&D is not unique in any way in regards to classes and races of a fantasy setting. There are a myriad of games and books both on comupture and PnP, that use monk, wizards, clerics, rogues, elves, dark elves, dwarfs, etc. I see nothing in the history book sense of Layonara that is trade marked by WoC.


So we get a new combat system. A new magic and skill system. The feel of the RP and the fun of fighting encounters will hold true. I trust the development team to make a game that is balanced and enjoyable. I also trust that Leanthar and others have a business plan that will be successful. There is just too much talent here to fail.


AeonBlues


P.S. Maybe for some name recognition and expanded player base you should talk to Steve Jackson :D


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LucinditeMistiteToranite
Joined: Jun 13 2005

There are of course certain writeups about Layonaran organizations that are heavily Prc based. Spellsword, Arcane Archer or the custom Prc's that have been worked on by the team itself (Kudos to people like Ghost by the way who took the time to add this bit of spice to the world).


Now, I wonder what will happen to these. Will they mostly like have to changed in some way, or removed altogether?


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AeridiniteCorathiteDruidRofireinite
Joined: Jun 9 2006

Does anyone else look upon this thread - see the emotion (good and bad) that is being expressed and, instead of feeling depressed and dejected, feel how much people care for the place and the community?


Maybe some faith that all this caring from both the team and the greater community might just manifest into something positive in regards to the future of Layo? Maybe?


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Ioskeha's picture
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DruidKatian
Joined: Sep 13 2005

Yeah, I can't even imagine the legal headaches that will come from taking something that has all but been open source and trying to copyright it. I wonder just how much will have to be thrown out before a publisher takes this project seriously.


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BeryliteMistite
Joined: Jan 16 2004

I sure do. People have a real identity with their character and it shows in how they feel about the coming future.


I for one will continue to support with dontations to Layo until I can't. I know that any product that makes it out will be a great product and I will be there waiting to play it.


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Lucindite
Joined: May 8 2006

I just read most of the post on this topic and I am curious about one thing.


If this new version is a non NWN version and will be a pay to play game, which I am not opposed to, how will there be any policing of your typical "lewt/dudz/whatever" players?


I think that you might come into some sort of legal issue if you disallowed people to play after purchasing a game, even if there is a EULA to adhere to. I can only see that as being a legal nightmare perhaps.


But due to limited insight on what is really happening to Layonara, other than the FAQs, I don't know if a conclusion can really be made on this as of yet.


The beautiful thing about Layonara in its present condition is the community.


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Angels Guild MemberIlsarianPrunillian
Joined: Apr 7 2006

Quote:
I just read most of the post on this topic and I am curious about one thing.


If this new version is a non NWN version and will be a pay to play game, which I am not opposed to, how will there be any policing of your typical "lewt/dudz/whatever" players?


I think that you might come into some sort of legal issue if you disallowed people to play after purchasing a game, even if there is a EULA to adhere to. I can only see that as being a legal nightmare perhaps.


But due to limited insight on what is really happening to Layonara, other than the FAQs, I don't know if a conclusion can really be made on this as of yet.


The beautiful thing about Layonara in its present condition is the community.


That was another of my thoughts too. One reason I love it here at Layonara is because there aren't loads of folks running around spewing 'leet-speak' or endless strings of vulagrity etc. I'd probably play my copy of Guild Wars more if it weren't for the fact that that's all you see 99.99999% of the time in any of the chat channels there. If the quality of the playing environment and players at Layonara degenerates similarly, I'll find some other game to play or something.


orth's picture
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Layonara AdministratorGamemasterKatianWriting Team Member
Joined: Jan 6 2004

Character integrity and roleplaying will always be a major facet of Layonara. Not only do we have many experiences with this and we have learned from some mistakes, we now have complete control over source code to help encourage this atmosphere.


Another thing to keep in mind, just because you pay for something doesn't give you the undeniable right to do whatever you want, try running onto the baseball field at a game or having your very own campfire at a theme park.


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Lucindite
Joined: May 8 2006

Quote:
Character integrity and roleplaying will always be a major facet of Layonara. Not only do we have many experiences with this and we have learned from some mistakes, we now have complete control over source code to help encourage this atmosphere.


Another thing to keep in mind, just because you pay for something doesn't give you the undeniable right to do whatever you want, try running onto the baseball field at a game or having your very own campfire at a theme park.


Orth, I am in no way trying to be disentful here, for lack of a better term in my mind at this time, but the baseball/park thing is totally different.


I have played many, many MMORPGs in my time. Everquest, DAoC, WoW, SWG, and even some non"higher"end games like Knight Online and a few others. All of those games have/had issues with the "leet-speak" etc. And most, if not all, of those game companies had issues enforcing the EULA because of threat of lawsuits. And all of them have the exact sort of players that Layonara is not all about.


I will be the first to admit that I struggle with role-playing, although I love it, I am, in my opinion, not very good at it (partly due to the fact that I don't have the time to truly devote to character development outside of traveling with my friends most nights) I don't know how any of the above mentioned game types could enforce, other than by encouraging, role-playing and non-"I want to be a leet god" play. I am not trying to be discouraging in any way either, although I am sure I am coming across that way, and I apologize for that. But it is a realistic concern that I am curious as to what your plans might be to avoid that.


Thanks for understanding my concern.


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DruidKatian
Joined: Sep 13 2005

Strykr wrote:
I think that you might come into some sort of legal issue if you disallowed people to play after purchasing a game, even if there is a EULA to adhere to. I can only see that as being a legal nightmare perhaps.


Strykr is basically correct. The Problem with EULA's are they not legally binding contracts. You can write up the best one in the world and it will still most likely be thrown out in court. I've seen and heard of them being thrown out of courts quite a few times. Reason being the consumer can not agree to a contract without reading it first. By buying, say a game, where the EULA is not printed where the consumer can read it first (they are either printed in the manual or part of the install shield) they can not agree to the license before paying for it.


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Layonara AdministratorGamemasterKatianWriting Team Member
Joined: Jan 6 2004

So how come software piracy can be successfully prosecuted?


I'm digressing though, let me just state that our plans we will share after they are solidified will help reveal more about how and why we think things will work (for the most part). Though we're not kidding ourselves, there will be problems.


What I want to get by is I really hope you folks realize that we've done our homework, we haven't just built a game, we've studied countless cases, we've watched the whole industry closely, we've kept tabs on the major players, we've shared discussions and knowledge with indie developers, we've forged relationships with very respectable watchdogs, we've played many other games.


Anywho, not sure how I'm coming off, I appreciate the input for sure, no tone of attack or insult was taken, just hoping everyone stopped for a sec and thought "Yeah they probably thought of that". But hey you never know, maybe we haven't unless you ask I guess :)


hawklen's picture
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Joined: May 2 2006

Ooo! Get into the complications of EULA and coyright *nod nod*


Ioskeha's picture
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DruidKatian
Joined: Sep 13 2005

orth wrote:
So how come software piracy can be successfully prosecuted?


Because the copyrights are broken. The case I helped trial was for piracy actually. We tried to argue a breach in contract. Cited the EULA. Judge threw it out. We won by proving that the person that was selling the "backup" copies wasn't the name holder on the copyright for the art used in the game.


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FolianiteToranite
Joined: Jul 8 2005

Quote:
Strykr is basically correct. The Problem with EULA's are they not legally binding contracts. You can write up the best one in the world and it will still most likely be thrown out in court. I've seen and heard of them being thrown out of courts quite a few times. Reason being the consumer can not agree to a contract without reading it first. By buying, say a game, where the EULA is not printed where the consumer can read it first (they are either printed in the manual or part of the install shield) they can not agree to the license before paying for it.


Click through licensing! Only sell it online then you can enforce a user agreement to the licensing. Works for the JCP :)


All the issues we have brought up are very addressable especially if you have done your homework and it sounds like the team has.

I spend a lot of my time dealing with software licensing and usage rights and how to navigate them in a world of patents and OSS licensing headaches like GPL (only a headache is you want to sell software) in amongst giants of control like Sun, IBM, and MS. It really is not rocket science.


The technical part for this kind of project also is not rocket science.


The only real killer is finding the funding to back you so that you can build a business. Now that is beyond rocket science it is more like magic LOL.


pelordaes7's picture
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Joined: Oct 12 2004

Will a character with a name similar to Czukay still be able to ask for firstborn children for sale in town to passersby? This is my main concern.......heh just kidding...with your team of coders and like you said trying to fit inside the NWN engines gloves, you instead are going to be able to create the glove and mold it like clay.....what a true DM does in a pen and paper game.....best of luck to you all.....I just hope the graphics are enough to immerse me.....thats a very important factor to me personally....I would rather see less players and better graphics than, tons of players and crappy graphics.....I must say that on this last release you all made me feel like I was playing NWN2 in some of the areas with how you tweaked the engine out....if you can do that, im sure you can pull off anything with this new version and with ease. props


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Aeridinite
Joined: Jun 11 2005

Going back to the pay-to-play issue: (Warning: I'm going to be severly blunt; not rude or negative. So, please, do not take offense.)


The current meaning of "pay-to-play", to me, is "You will pay us thisRate at thisInterval for thisLong during thisPeriod, even if you do not play for the majority of thisPeriod. If you cancle, there might be an early termination fee of thisAmount."


That may sound satirical to some, but it is all too true.


If the definition became "You will pay thisReasonalbeRate at thisInterval of the time you spend playing thisGame." I just might agree.


Ioskeha's picture
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DruidKatian
Joined: Sep 13 2005

jrizz wrote:
Click through licensing! Only sell it online then you can enforce a user agreement to the licensing. Works for the JCP :)


That would be the best way to go about it. Going that route the team wouldn't even need to find a publisher as long as they could cover the initial cost of the bandwidth and server fees. If they wanted to they could also release the client for free this way and only charge a monthly fee plus a few extra bucks per month to cover the development cost.


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Aeridinite
Joined: Jun 11 2005

Should I point back to my original post? :p


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Lucindite
Joined: May 8 2006

Quote:
Going back to the pay-to-play issue: (Warning: I'm going to be severly blunt; not rude or negative. So, please, do not take offense.)


The current meaning of "pay-to-play", to me, is "You will pay us thisRate at thisInterval for thisLong during thisPeriod, even if you do not play for the majority of thisPeriod. If you cancle, there might be an early termination fee of thisAmount."


That may sound satirical to some, but it is all too true.


If the definition became "You will pay thisReasonalbeRate at thisInterval of the time you spend playing thisGame." I just might agree.


That would never be a viable solution to a company needing to make money, or even to break even. A company needs to have some sort of reliable source of revenue to plan for things. So paying to play for only the specific time your are playing would never work. Paying a monthly subscription is easy to account for and is clear enough to understand. Otherwise I, as a CPA currently, could only imagine the nightmares about billing disputes with "I was only on for 12 hours last month and got billed for 20" or any infinite other disputes that could arise. Way too much of a headache for any company to want to put up with, especially a company as limited in resources and time as Layonara is.


Stephen_Zuckerman's picture
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Aeridinite
Joined: Oct 1 2005

Perhaps a monthly renewal, or something where those who pay the monthly fee are able to do X while those who only buy the game are not... Etc.


With the monthly renewal, someone could simply choose not to renew if they were not planning on playing much.


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