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Author Topic: A Discussion and Question  (Read 349 times)

Stephen_Zuckerman

A Discussion and Question
« on: October 04, 2007, 12:47:35 pm »
Alright. So.

I've been away for a while, but still have been developing Pyyran as I was gone... And even before that, I was developing him in a certain direction.

Currenly, he is a 12th level Rogue, 5th level Duelist.

And yet, I've been playing him in the direction of Bard for several months even before I lost net; ever moreso since he lost his 9th Soul Strand.

Normally, I would just submit for a class shift to Bard, but... Looking at my levels, we run into a problem. He's got more than ten Rogue levels, which means he CANNOT have three classes and still fit into the 5-levels-in-each-class-before-20th rule.

However, I can't really see him progressing further as a Duelist. Or a Rogue, for that matter.

Okay, so the next idea was to request a rebuild. Knock back the Duelist levels and two of the Rogue, to relevel with 10 Rogue levels, 5 Duelist, and 2 Bard. Or, heck, even 1 Bard, or just delevel him. (Yes, I would be okay with going down to level 15 - traumatic experiences offer wonderful excuses for XP loss.)

But here's where we run into the real problem.

When I was creating Pyyran, way back two years ago, I forgot that Duelist required Ambidexterity. And then, as I went along in levels, I kept picking up the other feats, but didn't remember Ambidexterity until it was already too late... I would only be able to have all the prerequisite feats once I had taken my 12th level. As it stood then, I didn't mind too much - I didn't know how Pyyran would progress as a storyteller, and didn't forsee him drawing back from combat as much (or rather, didn't forsee him losing so many DTs).

Now, however, with my desire for Bard, my only option without a rebuild is to get Pyyran to level 20 and beyond - which is fairly unlikely, given my history with XP gain.

But here's the thing.

If Pyyran were deleveled to level 1 (or simply recreated) and then given all the XP back that he currently has, I could raise him in the levels like so... The feats taken are listed in parenthesis, and all skills except 5 in Persuade, 5 in Tumble, and 3 in Perform, would be taken at the final Rogue level; every effort would be made to keep the invested skills the same, though several skills would be decreased by a couple of ranks due to the trade of Rogue levels for Bard.

I Rogue 1 (Dodge, Point Blank Shot)
II Rogue 2
III Rogue 3 (Weapon Focus [Rapier])
IV Rogue 4
V Rogue 5
VI Rogue 6 (Mobility)
VII Rogue 7
VII Rogue 8
IX Rogue 9 (Ambidexterity)
X Duelist 1
XI Duelist 2
XII Duelist 3 (Weapon Finesse)
XIII Duelist 4
XIV Duelist 5
XV Bard 1 (Improved Critical [Rapier])
XVI Bard 2
XVII Rogue 10

The main problem was that I took Weapon Finesse at level 3, which made it impossible to take Duelist levels until level 13.

I understand that there will be the need for substantial support for the class change itself, as well as this fairly involved rebuild.

<<;; There are a couple of other changes I was looking to make, including his portrait, hair colour, and description, but for those I can go through the normal channels.

The reason I post this here is because I'm looking for input on whether or not this would be possible, with proper RP support. I understand that the members of the Team who would need to decide, in the end, whether or not to do this, are extremely busy - thus the question before the actual application.

I look forward to your input.
 

Dorganath

Re: A Discussion and Question
« Reply #1 on: October 04, 2007, 01:20:46 pm »
It's possible, and it has been done when the RP supported it.  My opinion is that it's a bit dubious to count any time of absence as "development" for the purposes of such a drastic class shift.  There is often some sort of penalty for such shifts, which essentially reflect the major change.

This needs to go through the normal Character Approval process.  I'm not seeing a reason for a complete remake.  If approved, a re-leveling could be done by any GM.  If there did end up being a net level loss as a result, there would be no roll-back of lost Soul Strands.
 

Acacea

Re: A Discussion and Question
« Reply #2 on: October 04, 2007, 01:24:25 pm »
Why can't one be a storyteller without being a bard? I'd probably be more interested in the development of innate magical potential in bardliness than how many stories one has told...one can be a musician and storyteller both without taking bard levels, after all...
 

Stephen_Zuckerman

Re: A Discussion and Question
« Reply #3 on: October 04, 2007, 02:21:38 pm »
That's very true, Acacea, but the magic is part of it that I'm honestly still in the process of developing... I've been rather hesitant to play much around the magic bits apart from his supernatural Trouble Itch (yay for Rogue abilities), and the growing connection to the shell he carries. The main reason I want to pursue Bard levels is the Bardsong, which, as it is in NWN, is mainly a supernatural, rather than spell-like effect; secondarily, Bardic Knowledge. What Pyyran's actually been through and experienced isn't really very well reflected by even maxed-out ranks in Lore. I do very much appreciate the input, though, and with your points in mind, there are a few things I need to emphasize more heavily in the dev posts that... Honestly still aren't quite finished. *Sigh.*

Dorg: Thank you for the input, and I am quite inclined to agree on all points you brought up; in addition, the roll-back of lost SSes would be no problem. They were good RP, and I'm more or less glad they all happened.

I still need to finish off (quite) a few little stories that Pyyran wrote, and the narratives from his wanderings...

Though the ballad'll be up in the next minute or two.
 

Acacea

Re: A Discussion and Question
« Reply #4 on: October 04, 2007, 02:39:43 pm »
I understand the feeling that the knowledge of your character's experiences are not properly reflected by his lore score, as I have looked at other characters in the past who can tell stories behind many events that they have been through and didn't bother with a single lore point. I couldn't help but think, "why isn't that maxed out??"

I thought about it some more and came to a personal conclusion: my lore score does not include the knowledge that my character gains while I am playing her.

That probably sounds weird to a lot of people, and a "duh" to others, but to clarify - if a dwarf is raised in a certain area, and lives through a certain battle, he knows what occurred there. It's silly to make him roll a lore on something that he was present for. However, he knows few stories or bits of information from outside his clan, and the world is vast - he doesn't need to roll a lore to tell his experiences, because he was there; however when attempting to remember knowledge from anything else, he has none.

So I separate my experience from her lore a lot. I consider Acacea's high lore as a result of her books read, and all her travels that she has made singing songs and gossiping with villagers and runes that she has browsed, languages attempted to translate while I'm not playing her. If I am on a quest and we learn that a rune means "ice" - why should I roll lore upon seeing it the next day?

I do cringe to see people that have been through so many stories it makes my head hurt, and taken the knowledge of them all back with them. I figure you reach a certain cap of 'knowledge while playing' before you just HAVE to sink some points in it for crying out loud. :P

Congratulations and welcome back on regaining your internet, by the way.
 

darkstorme

Re: A Discussion and Question
« Reply #5 on: October 04, 2007, 04:32:51 pm »
I was in a discussion with a certain celebrated bard the other day and was criticized for my stereotype of "Bard as Storyteller".   Any character can tell stories.. or sing (though badly, in some cases), or play an instrument.

If you want Bardic Knowledge, that's one thing... but Pyyran's well-established as a fighter, not a magician - and magic in music is a large part of the Bard ethos.  I don't see that  you can't accomplish what you're after without taking the Bard levels. :)
 

Stephen_Zuckerman

Re: A Discussion and Question
« Reply #6 on: October 04, 2007, 10:51:56 pm »
The magic in music is the main thing for Pyyran - while (from what you're saying) he's apparently well-recognized for his (limited) skills in combat, it was more the flair and zen aspects of the Duelist that originally attracted me and the character to the class. As he's progressed closer and closer to my ideal of the Storyteller Bard, and his interest in magic has increased (though it's always been rather high)... Well, the most logical step, in my brain, was to not limit that shift, and have him end up as a Bard in truth, with the magic that I think he could very well develop.

While I do most definitely agree that one can be an accomplished, even celebrated musician and storyteller without a single level in Bard, it's ("it" being my aim with Pyyran) more than just the music and stories. To try pulling an analogy out of my hat, it's that one can be an accomplished, even celebrated combatant and master of the rapier without a single level in Duelist, but it's more than just being able to hit hard with the sword (rather, it's about the approach the Duelist takes of finesse rather than strength, and forethought rather than physical defense).

If that made sense, awesome.

Edit: I need to stop posting here and work on my CDT posts. *Laughs.*
 

Dorganath

Re: A Discussion and Question
« Reply #7 on: October 04, 2007, 11:07:42 pm »
Well yeah, work on your CDT, and then take this to the Character Submission forum when you're ready.  You'll not get an approval, guarantee or anything more than the possibilities in this forum. :)
 

Stephen_Zuckerman

Re: A Discussion and Question
« Reply #8 on: October 05, 2007, 12:40:18 am »
Will do; and thanks. :) I posted this just for the possibilities, and REALLY appreciate the input, guys.

<3