A Little Help Please

[Gulnyr]

The idea that the world should move on without us from a GM perspective is absolutely frustrating. In instances where we have done this in the past we have copped an absolute hammering by players saying its not fair, they didnt get any input, they didnt get a chance to act. Now you are saying why isnt it happening? I prefer not to be called stupid no matter what we do. *throws hands into the air* You can't have your apple and eat it too sometimes. You have to accept and work with what you've got and I feel like a broken record on that point.

I need to know, please, who rules the world.  

Does Queen Mouring, for example, matter?  Does she make any decisions for Trelania?  Is there a government there, or do people just sit around pretending to do things?  Are they allied with Brelin?  If some tragic event befalls one, with the other act with the force of a whole kingdom?

-OR-

Do adventurers rule the world?  Do all major events require the interdiction of a PC?  Will Queen Mouring, for example, do nothing, ever, unless there is interaction with one of our characters?  If a tragic event befalls Hlint, say, will the Queen act, calling in resources from her vast kingdom or is it up to a handful of adventurers to make anything at all happen to help Hlint?


Is the world alive or dead?  Is there a realistic background with a sensible hierarchy, or are we playing tiny, powerful demigods who tell kings and queens where to go?  Yes, it would be bad if everything happened without the opportunity for player input, but it is equally bad that everything requires player input.  Why is everything always all-or-nothing, black-and-white?  Find some middle ground.

[ShiffDrgnhrt]

All I can say is I completely agree with your point, but I believe the issue lies with the amount of work necessary for a dynamic world where things happen outside what the adventurers do.  Not that I find that particularly favorable. . .

[Acacea]

Manpower is an excellent reason. No one expects constant status updates on various aspects of the world. We don't have enough time or DMs, and players would much rather use their precious DMs for quest times and things they can interact with. Uncertainty of what that status is - another unfortunate and understandable one. A lot of people don't realize how much of a pain it is to find information about some things, let alone be in a place where you can speak for the actions of anyone BUT PCs. Painting requests for middle ground into a choice between extremes is too common, though. "First you want it, now you don't," is said too often as a substitute for a real reason, heh.

Letting players micromanage takes as much or more work, anyway. If you can write off in a paragraph that a ruler is now putting prisoners to work in the fields rather than putting them in a hole, you aren't dealing with multiple schedules and PMs. It's just a background change, if it comes up. Letting players do player things and assuming kingdoms do kingdomy things doesn't seem like a big deal. Don't update every time a king takes a leak, but don't blame players for lack of action in areas that a kingdom would be handling in day-to-day affairs, either.

You see this a lot in various donation drives - players work so much to support something and don't see the kingdom stuff, so they talk about how lazy or callous that place is, or wonder how those huge numbers equal so little change. Or we go out of our way to point out that Rael makes a donation, but fail to note the efforts at home. There is no need to list everything - but try to balance it out.

It would be nice to be able to just hang out and talk about ways to do things. There can be so many layers of tired status quo to cut through, whether player or DM. Sometimes it is not about the yes/no but about the why/how. In a situation important to a faith or kingdom that should have prompted a reaction - Did the kingdom/faith act? No. Why? Because... okay. Did the kingdom/faith act? Yes. Why? Because... okay.

Even variations such as, "No. Why? Oops! They should have but we just didn't have the time, can we pretend?" are often totally cool. It gets weird with this:

Did the kingdom/faith act? No. Why? Because they weren't PCs. What?

[Shiokara]

It should just be accepted that there must exist a persistent world outside that which occurs on the plot/cdq/wldq/gcdq/impromptu timeline. In MMORPGs, this is the mysterious world that exists for the single player, where giant trees carry gold and mailmen need letters delivered that contain the same messages to the same three NPCs. This world changes, but it does so extremely slowly (usually at a rate of once a world-event/expansion release).

Consider the establishment of Center, for example. This mechanical gathering post for our adventurers is, in context, a newly founded colony of active NPCs. Sure it was introduced in a patch, but it was disconnected from a players' actions (aside from complaints about there being no legitimate gathering place for players on a server that was shrinking).

Quests and disaster events also don't require PC involvement, but PCs help. Take the tsunami that hit Port Hempstead and other areas. The wave would have hit no matter what, and it had the potential to drastically change the gaming environment. We were told that much. PCs got involved, but that doesn't mean there wouldn't have been a scenario if we didn't.

Don't forget the cabalists that gave their lives fighting dragons in Audira, and all those other lovely, active NPCs. Then there's that whole Lor/Rael/whatever mess. It's possible it was tied to a quest or a player's actions or whatever, but for me it might've well as been just a bunch of NPCs, that's how far removed my PC was from the whole situation.

I will concede that some royalty should perhaps be dying of old age and sickness and whatnot, but that's the kind of update that needs to be handled around patch time because it will change the client. Until then, assume that the queens and kings are holding audiences at court, listening to the thousand woes of their people and entertaining guests from such and such exotic place.

[Dorganath]

I need to know, please, who rules the world.  

Does Queen Mouring, for example, matter?  Does she make any decisions for Trelania?  Is there a government there, or do people just sit around pretending to do things?  Are they allied with Brelin?  If some tragic event befalls one, with the other act with the force of a whole kingdom?

-OR-

Do adventurers rule the world?  Do all major events require the interdiction of a PC?  Will Queen Mouring, for example, do nothing, ever, unless there is interaction with one of our characters?  If a tragic event befalls Hlint, say, will the Queen act, calling in resources from her vast kingdom or is it up to a handful of adventurers to make anything at all happen to help Hlint?


Is the world alive or dead?  Is there a realistic background with a sensible hierarchy, or are we playing tiny, powerful demigods who tell kings and queens where to go?  Yes, it would be bad if everything happened without the opportunity for player input, but it is equally bad that everything requires player input.  Why is everything always all-or-nothing, black-and-white?  Find some middle ground.

I've purposefully stayed away from the Rofireinite discussion that  apparently spawned this thread. I knew it would get heated, and it has.  I'm still staying away from it, as I feel others are contributing far  better to the topic than I could.

On the questions in this thread...

Yes, Queen Mourning matters.  Yes, she makes decisions that matter.   Yes, if some tragedy befell one of Trelania's allies, they would  offer/provide aid as appropriate and as they were capable of doing.

No, the world is not ruled by adventurers. No, all major events do not require the interdiction of PCs, however because PCs are controlled by players and players are here to do something and hopefully be involved (per each individual's preferences), we tend to foster that sort of involvement. Tragic events have befallen Hlint, and the Queen has mobilized resources to address it. Remember the quarantine?

The world is alive.  There is a realistic background with a sensible heirarchy.  Some PCs do, in fact, play powerful demigods who tell kings and queens where to go....or try to anyway. I don't agree with that, personally, and sometimes I think that people who do that are hiding behind mechanics and the concept that we don't want to permanently rob anyone of their "fun" by throwing their character(s) in jail for the rest of their lives for spouting off to the sovereign in his/her presence.

Yes, I agree that too much in the PCs sole influence is just as bad as too little.  There is a middle ground. Finding it is difficult.  It's a process, not a milestone. It is not always all-or-nothing...black-or-white.

As was mentioned, manpower...resources...perceived methodology...stated or perceived limits and restrictions...these and more all come into play. They are what they are. I make no excuses, but I also ask that you (the community in general) have some tolerance an patience.

Part of all the various things we're trying to change is how the world as a whole runs.  Giving GMs the reigns to run their little corner of the world somewhat autonomously and intending to be more active and reactive in terms of world events (not necessarily world-affecting events) are all among our goals and targets.

That said, these last couple months have been actually quite difficult for several GMs (myself included) for various reasons. On my end, work was ridiculously crazy for nearly a month and just extra busy for a month before that. The computer I used for NWN died on me about a month ago and I'm finally able to see about replacing it.  I know several other GMs, several o which are plot-focused, have suddenly had personal commitments and other RL impediments flare up with significant impact. I could name them too, but that's not really relevant.  Most of the rest of the GMs have been running lots of CDQs and waiting (rightly or wrongly, I will not say) for the plot folks (myself included again) to start directing traffic again.

I know this goes back more than a few months, but I want people in general to know that whatever lack of...activity you might be seeing is not due to a lack of interest on the GM's part or a lack of initiative on the players' parts.

So where is the middle ground? I don't know.  Do you?  It's probably something that would shift around over time.  I'll say you'll probably never see Queen Mourning or any other sovereign posting regular proclamations about this or that going on in the kingdom.  People should really assume that there are day-to-day happenings and we don't need to have something out in the public for all to see that the Queen is actually working.  She is.  You don't see it unless there is something going on that would interest or require PCs.  Why require? Well, PCs are powerful and influential in their own right...and players find it fun, right? At least I hope so.

Do you want us, the GM team, to overthrow the Fort Vehl and/or Co'rys governments so that there can be less Rofireinite discontent in that part of the world? Maybe it's been tried already behind the scenes and it failed.  For every Rofireinite (PC or NPC) who wants it changed, there's probably 20 more who like things the way they are and another significant number who go with the status quo, because they don't want to cause any trouble. Maybe what replaces it won't be any better.  Maybe Rofirein's presence will get kicked out of Fort Vehl completely. Do you want us to script that? Do you want us to artificially plant the seeds of a revolution that may or may not fail so things feel more "alive"?  Does it matter really who starts the revolution? Yes this is one example. No, it's not really on our radar to initiate. Yes, there are other things that are in motion. No, they may not yet be obvious.

To add another layer...what happens when we (the GM Team) make reasonable, logical, "middle ground" decisions on behalf of some realm or faith or whatever....and some of you (the players) disagree?  It's a wonderful thing and it's a curse.  Many of our players (and GMs too) get so very invested on an emotional level with the faiths and loyalties of our characters. We internalize these things and get very personally attached, and when something happens or changes that goes counter to our own personal interpretations, beliefs or expectations, it leaves behind a very sour taste. Bitter even. I could give examples. I won't.  The point is that it's not as simple as playing to the shades of grey.

Anyway, when the dust settles from the various things that befell a significant fraction of the GM team lately, we truly do have plans to set the world into motion in a different way.  Some things will be going on and without PC involvement. Maybe they'll cross paths with things PCs are doing. Maybe they won't.  They may have eventual impacts on world-affecting events, or they may not.  The whole point is to make things feel less like a series of measured plot advancements or things that seem to be hanging on a thread until some PCs wander by.  I know this was going on, and when I designed a whole big list of things to change here (only a few of which I have revealed publicly), changing the way we manage the world setting itself was very high among them. You'll have to take my word for it and please...have some patience.  I know there is room for improvement. We're working toward that end.  As we say frequently here, RL comes first, and that applies just as equally to GMs as it does to players. We're all volunteers.  Players too. We do this when we have time and energy, and sometimes, we do need a break.

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To touch on a couple other quick comments....yes, kings and queens should be growing old and dying.  So should a lot of PCs. We're not going to enforce that strictly.  The reasons should be obvious on the PC end of things, and for NPCs, well, the issue is that time in NWN is far, too accelerated for us as a game world to really keep up with in a meaningful way.  We'd have to be doing this as a full-time job to do so, and all but the most active players would get left in the dust.

When the Dragon Storm campaign is written into the Campaign Setting handbook, it likely won't have taken 60-ish years, just as it didn't take 7+ years for the Cult fleet to sail to Mistone. If it had, most of the key figures, Molvaren among them, would have been dead or quite near it. Time is unfortunately somewhat malleable here, and as players we have to kind of let that slide a bit now and then.  When a single conversation can span 2 or 3 game days without sleeping or stopping and people can cross to the other side of the world without using a portal in 15 RL minutes/3h 45m game time, we really can't get too fussed about dates.

Similarly, when by necessity there is an RL week between quest sessions, it doesn't make much sense that months have passed with everyone staying in the same place. Sometimes that accounts for the time not spent traveling distances of hundreds or thousands of miles, but over the long stretch, it gets distorted. It's convenient as a time marker for journals and whatever, but we have to accept a degree of leeway when thinking about it.

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To close this...

Speaking to anyone reading this, if there's an initiative you'd like to see, speak with a GM. Don't sit around waiting/hoping for something to change. Our motivations aren't the same as yours. We won't try and read your minds. We don't want to. It's probably pretty scary in there.  To re-use an example, Fort Vehl changing into a non-corrupt, justice-driven form of government more in keeping with Rofireinite law probably isn't going to happen on its own.  Why would it? The status quo is pretty powerful there, speaking ICly, and the most likely catalyst for revolt there is going to be PCs.  Broadening things a bit, if we say, "that has to be a PC-driven initiative" we're not saying that nothing's happening without a PC being involved. We're saying that overall, things are not changing on a macroscopic level.  Things may be happening, but they may not be so visible.

And... The middle ground between "requiring" a PC for something to happen and making things happen without PCs is actually a mixture of both. If people are waiting for GMs to start things all the time, whether PCs get involved or not, that's one end of the "all-or-nothing" spectrum.  If GMs are waiting for PCs to start things, that's the other.  Don't wait. Start.  Involve the other as appropriate.  Both sides need to do this. That is the middle ground. It's easy to talk about it, but doing is a whole other thing. It's a partnership...always has been. I think people are forgetting that.

OK, it's late. I'm rambling.  If something I've written sounds like an attack or a pointed retort, please know it is not. It is perspective, somewhat differing from the original post and some of the responses, thus far but still aiming in the same direction.  Keep that in mind. I want the same things you want.  Really.

[Xaltotun]

Some very good points and well explained, even though it was getting late *nods to Dorg *

A lot of the GM team has been absent for some time due to RL pressures and whatnot and that has also resulted in a lessening of events. Would it be out of the question to take on some more GMs to help spread the (game) load and perhaps to even be given some responsibility for some areas/countries to develop stories?

I will put myself forward to start the ball rolling

[Gulnyr]

Thank you, Dorg.

Despite what I said, I know things are not always all-or-nothing, but I also know they often are.  I don't recall any examples of things happening without player input that caused any uproar, but I don't doubt that they did or could.  The middle ground of that situation, though, is not to decide that things are going to happen and then tell everyone what happens, but to go step by step, giving players time to react if they want, and then reshaping the next step in the path based on player input (or lack thereof), but still with consideration for the proper power level of the characters involved so that, for example, whole kingdoms don't seem as nothing before a gaggle of sword-swinging busybodies.  It's not all DM and it's not all player, but a cooperative storytelling effort.

For the record, I don't really care about Vehl.  If things change toward Law, yay, and if not, yay, keep trying, guys.  I was only using the example to point out that the Rofireinites are too often portrayed as going by whatever mortal law is before them rather than the Divine Law, and to point out that their participation and cooperation with the government doesn't make much sense; if you do what they want anyway, they have no incentive to change and you have no leverage against them, right?  Anyway, it's perfectly fine that that be left for a player initiative.  It just feels like the church is dead or thoughtless if they don't, of their own volition and without PC input, try something new from time to time.  Or, y'know, behave like Rofireinites instead of a local police force working for Co'rys.  They don't have to take over, but they can stop helping the corrupt government, right?  I can have Jennara suggest it if it helps the place make sense.

To add another layer...what happens when we (the GM Team) make reasonable, logical, "middle ground" decisions on behalf of some realm or faith or whatever....and some of you (the players) disagree?

You get the same situation as now, where extreme decisions or no decisions are made and players disagree with the extreme or status quo.  A living world where something happens and PCs have a chance to affect it is better than a stagnant world where nothing appears to change and PCs are forced to initiate everything.  It means both sides are participating.

yes, kings and queens should be growing old and dying.  So should a lot of PCs. We're not going to enforce that strictly.  The reasons should be obvious on the PC end of things, and for NPCs, well, the issue is that time in NWN is far, too accelerated for us as a game world to really keep up with in a meaningful way.  We'd have to be doing this as a full-time job to do so, and all but the most active players would get left in the dust.

I'm sorry, but this is an example of the all-or-nothing mindset.  "If we do it, we have to do it on schedule for everyone, so we won't do anything."  No, man.  Calm down.  Imagine Row is taking care of Trelania.  She decides that Calwhatever in Hlint is retiring and has him replaced with a new pawn NPC.  Maybe there's a party.  Maybe it just happens quietly.  That's all.  No worry about time scales.  No pressure for anyone else to be replaced.  Just a little change.  Done.  It's not all and it's not nothing - middle ground.  Easy.

[Dorganath]

I'm sorry, but this is an example of the all-or-nothing mindset.  "If we do it, we have to do it on schedule for everyone, so we won't do anything."  No, man.  Calm down.  Imagine Row is taking care of Trelania.  She decides that Calwhatever in Hlint is retiring and has him replaced with a new pawn NPC.  Maybe there's a party.  Maybe it just happens quietly.  That's all.  No worry about time scales.  No pressure for anyone else to be replaced.  Just a little change.  Done.  It's not all and it's not nothing - middle ground.  Easy.

Well, no it's not, but I can see how you might interpret that.  I did say we're not going to enforce that strictly.  There have been, and probably will continue to be, retirements, deaths and whatnot for aged NPCs.  Taking my whole comment in context and looking at the span of Dragon Storm, by strictly following how much time has passed, Queen Mourning, Lord Alexander and Molvaren (among several others) would be growing quite old, even feeble, if they hadn't succumbed to the effects of age already.  Since I said Dragon Storm won't have taken 60-ish years when it's written into the campaign setting, then it would follow then also that NPCs, especially the key ones, didn't really age 60-ish years in that time frame.  That's all I meant.

So yes, the in-game calendar keeps ticking, and yes, time is weird.  As such, we're not going to watch the calendar and compare lifespans for NPCs for the most part...not without jumping forward or something.

[Aphel]

Some very good points and well explained, even though it was getting late *nods to Dorg *

A lot of the GM team has been absent for some time due to RL pressures and whatnot and that has also resulted in a lessening of events. Would it be out of the question to take on some more GMs to help spread the (game) load and perhaps to even be given some responsibility for some areas/countries to develop stories?

I will put myself forward to start the ball rolling

Or faction. Along this line of thinking, maybe there should be some sort of non-metaplot country/area/faction development quests.

I would step forward to, but I am too new-ish, still.

[Dorganath]

Or faction. Along this line of thinking, maybe there should be some sort of non-metaplot country/area/faction development quests.

Factions (however you want to define them) are, in fact, the goal.

[Aphel]

Oh. Then why are you discussing so long? My apologizes to ignoring the usual chain of reading-thinking-thinking again-posting.

Shot from the hip, without insight on how the GM team works: ask for volunteers that handle certain factions, create a form to handle DM requests for a faction development quests, create a list of faction NPCs and PCs that took CDQs to enter said faction or could be assigned to the faction after speaking with the player.
Create a node/branch system to manage power distribution and influence for each faction; calculate available resources and create a plot/story with that in a top-down approach (e.g. faction wants to reinforce influence in area xyz, and with the use of resources rrr they want to go about it that way...spawning storyline A), let somebody check it for unwanted metaplot influences and go.

[Dorganath]

Oh. Then why are you discussing so long? My apologizes to ignoring the usual chain of reading-thinking-thinking again-posting.

Shot from the hip, without insight on how the GM team works: ask for volunteers that handle certain factions, create a form to handle DM requests for a faction development quests, create a list of faction NPCs and PCs that took CDQs to enter said faction or could be assigned to the faction after speaking with the player.
Create a node/branch system to manage power distribution and influence for each faction; calculate available resources and create a plot/story with that in a top-down approach (e.g. faction wants to reinforce influence in area xyz, and with the use of resources rrr they want to go about it that way...spawning storyline A), let somebody check it for unwanted metaplot influences and go.

Already ahead of you....

Maybe not formalized to that particular extent, but in concept, yes.

[Aphel]

Does it work? To prevent babbling on my side, PM sent out of curiosity.