The World of Layonara
The Layonara Community => Ask A Gamemaster => Topic started by: wild_down_under on June 13, 2011, 04:45:24 am
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*waves*
What is the maximum ability score you can have for a particular ability on Layonara? A while ago someone told me 42 (that's base + items + casting spell). Your answer is greatly appreciated.
-Hayley
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That depends entirely on the ability. For example, strength can get pretty high because you can start with a 20 strength half-orc. You could possibly get +10 strength from regular levelling, +7 from the great strength epic feats and +8 from taking 10 levels as a Red Dragon Disciple. So that would mean 45 strength at lvl 40 and 57 strength with the +12 bonus.
Of course, dragon shape beats that with a simple click on the button.
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I guess to be more clear, my question is does Layonara cap the ability score at 42, or can player get it over 42? Can someone confirm this?
And I do not mean transforming or shapechanging. I mean regular PC, with base score + items + ability boose spells (such as strength, dex, etc etc etc).
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I'll confirm it, you can.
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Unless Layonara has changed from the standard nwn on regards to maximum ability score it will look like this
Base: 18
Ability point per 4 level: +10
Epic feat (great xx): +10
Items: +12
MAX: 50
Races whose base ability are 20 will end with max of 52
an exception is the great strength feat, since no class have this particular feat as a bonus feat a character will only be able to use the 7 general feats from 21-40 to raise their str 7 leaving you with a max of 47 (base score 18 )
the layonara subraces (dark elver, giant, goblin etc) ability bonus are not part of the base score and therefore counts against the +12 max item bonus a character can have
~Akata
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I guess to be more clear, my question is does Layonara cap the ability score at 42, or can player get it over 42? Can someone confirm this?
And I do not mean transforming or shapechanging. I mean regular PC, with base score + items + ability boose spells (such as strength, dex, etc etc etc).
I'll second Aerimor on that. You can. I know of at least one PC who runs around with a 48 stat, just natural + items.
:)
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Aerimor is very wise.
And Raz is very smart and very unwise.
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We all new about the unwise part of Raz :)
On a side note I think it is way unfair that great STR is not a bonus feat and that on Layo the pre req STR for Dev Crit got raised by 5 points. Great STR not being a bonus feat WAS the balancing for dev crit. :( So dev crit on Layo has been over worked in the balancing effort ;)
I would suggest dropping the dev crit STR req to 27 or 28. With Great STR not being a bonus feat it will still take sacrifice and work to get to a base of 27. But at least it will be reachable by more fighter classes.
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We all new about the unwise part of Raz :)
On a side note I think it is way unfair that great STR is not a bonus feat and that on Layo the pre req STR for Dev Crit got raised by 5 points. Great STR not being a bonus feat WAS the balancing for dev crit. :( So dev crit on Layo has been over worked in the balancing effort ;)
I would suggest dropping the dev crit STR req to 27 or 28. With Great STR not being a bonus feat it will still take sacrifice and work to get to a base of 27. But at least it will be reachable by more fighter classes.
How is Devastating Critical not achievable as it is right now? If you start with 18 strength, you already have a sure 28 strength. Picking up two great strength feats and overwhelming critical as bonus feat for an insanely overpowered feat like dev. crit. doesn't sound like a high price to me. The minimal investment as it stands right now is only two general epic feats since overwhelming can be taken as a fighter epic bonus feat.
It's a long road, sure but not out of any fighter's reach if they make the investment.
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A half-orc red dragon discipline can reach a 48 base strength. As far as I know, that is the absolute highest base ability you can get in NWN. That's 60 strength fully buffed. I wonder if on the weight limit instead of pounds it just says "a house".
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How is Devastating Critical not achievable as it is right now? If you start with 18 strength, you already have a sure 28 strength. Picking up two great strength feats and overwhelming critical as bonus feat for an insanely overpowered feat like dev. crit. doesn't sound like a high price to me. The minimal investment as it stands right now is only two general epic feats since overwhelming can be taken as a fighter epic bonus feat.
It's a long road, sure but not out of any fighter's reach if they make the investment.
I calculate that Kurn will reach it by about level 36 or so. Maybe 39 if the system doesnt count my current str bump for 36 for the feat I get that level. Last level was nice when I hit the natural 24 at lvl 24, got the strength bump from the natural stat increase and the Great Strength Feat increase same level. I still need to take quite a few fighter levels to meet the pre-requisites, still needing power attack, cleave, great cleave, overwhealming critical and then that shining gem at the end of the long long tunnel.
That's why you'll see him constantly doing push-ups and doing reps with heavy boulders in between battles. The path of the dwarven body-builder is a long and thankless one, mostly due to how body oils tend to clump up unattractively on the hirsute unshaven. Still, if you ever need help moving furniture or hefting mithral, you know who to call. ;)
Right now he has a natural 24 with +12 in str gear, so that's 36 without spells. Still, keep em coming, because then I get to use my nifty items instead of the strength.
Oh! and I certainly wouldn't object to dev crit being lowered any. Then I could take those basic feats like toughness, improved expertise or skill focus: beer drinking. I did however start him with a 16 str, about average for a fighter. So yes, it is possible, just improbable if you ever ONCE misclicked on a level-up. ANd didn't meticulously calculate and plan the character day one for the feat.
On the plus side, once your natural Str is that high, the str-based fort save DC for the devastating critical will truly be devastating and unstoppable. That's what, DC 44 or DIE? With a crit range of 13-20 x3 dmg, 10-20 keen? Come here, Rael! I wanna show ye somethin... :D
Anyhow, sorry to get way off topic.
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I wonder if any character ever had that feat and could chime in on their perception of the feat, if it was worth it with how the world is tailored? I'm sure there's testing that has been done at the time the feat was rebalanced, but things has changed since.
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I wonder if any character ever had that feat and could chime in on their perception of the feat, if it was worth it with how the world is tailored? I'm sure there's testing that has been done at the time the feat was rebalanced, but things has changed since.
Don't know of any who have taken it before. Kurn aims to be the first! :D
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I am going to bet big that it is no where near as deadly as any number of the mass death spells that come at much lower levels and bars.
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Which is why I'd like to see it tested in game with a pc in the current world. Maybe the hype is not what the feat truly is, maybe it is way over powered.. or maybe by the time you have it, you face things that are mostly immune to it due to insane DC.
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I am going to bet big that it is no where near as deadly as any number of the mass death spells that come at much lower levels and bars.
It is just as deadly, Sure you have to hit, but lets compare the mass death spells to this feat:
Weird:
(19+(6)+(int/cha MOD))DC will AND fort save to kill
Wail:
(19+(6)+(int/cha MOD))DC fort to kill
Power Word, Kill
(19+(6)+(int/cha MOD))DC will to kill
These spells can be cast around 4-7 times a day, affecting any monster which isn't immune to the spell somehow.
Okay now devastating critical(assuming you have a level 40 character who just meets the requirements):
(30+10(str mod))fort to kill on critical(1/3-1/4 of the hit)
Okay now lets assume that the persons in question maxed their stats to the limit(50 here for simplicity) and the wizard maxed his feats, we will then have:
Weird: 45 DC will AND fort
Wail: 45 DC fort
Power Word Kill: 45 DC will
Dev. Crit: 50 DC fort (1/3-1/4 of the hit)
Look at these numbers, and tell me again that Dev. Crit is underpowered. I can tell you that even with Vorpal with a 26 DC reflex save I can take down fire giants on Belinara if I am lucky.
Now that stament above leads to a discussion of the monsters of Layonara. Normally their strong save is fort, surely to the disadvantage of the fighters with dev. crit. . But really, if people can kill monsters with Weird/Wail then you can kill them even more often with Dev. Crit. sure you need to crit, but you do not have the limit of only using the ability 7-8 times every 20 minutes.
I hope these numbers cleared the usefulness of dev. crit. up for some. My own opinion about the issue is that there should be a difference between the classes, so no we can't all have abilities which takes out entire groups at once, just as the wizards can't start a huge mele fight with a spawn.
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Numbers are numbers but do not represent actual game-play testing sorry. And let's face it by the time a PC fighter finally gets to level 40 (without perming).. and has placed everything just to get div crit (which I'd have to check but you would most likely forgo a lot of other feats just to get that one, like smd, improve crit etc) The world would be exterminated by Wizards already who can cast all those spells starting level 17 :p
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Just to be fair, a fighter starting with 16 strength can get dev crit by level 36. Not that I can appreciate how high a mountain that is, but well, just saying.
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Numbers are numbers but do not represent actual game-play testing sorry. And let's face it by the time a PC fighter finally gets to level 40 (without perming).. and has placed everything just to get div crit (which I'd have to check but you would most likely forgo a lot of other feats just to get that one, like smd, improve crit etc) The world would be exterminated by Wizards already who can cast all those spells starting level 17 :p
Sure but the wizard or sorc who are firering those spells have placed everything on getting to that level of int/cha(When he reaches level 40)... Sure the spells are powerful right when you get them, but you still need to keep investing in them to improving. I can attest that Storolds spells are pretty weak because I did not pump int for my own reasons, so if I started showing of with wail and weird it might seem impressive on Dregar, but the truth is that there is no punch in them when I go against anything on Belinara. So it is a choice, either you pump everything into one stat and become truly good and something or you distribute your stats and become good at everything but not truly great.
And for feats, -no-one- gets more feats than fighters, if you don't have improved crit by level 20 then you did something wrong, or choose not to take it that is the truth.
The without perming, just don't take risks. If you like taking risks then don't complain about perming for it. While I could probably solo on Belinara with Storold I don't do it because I do not like the risk. Same with my fighter, I do not run him into a bunch of ogres on west, I might live through it, but it is not worth the risk.
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Ima gonna back this up and try to answer the stat tit for tat... and the mass death vs. dev crit question.
Actually managed to remember the game again fairly quickly, which is nice. So with hope I'm still on the mark with everything.
I had to sink quite a bit into getting my main PC's casting stat to a base of 36. I'm going to use mine as it is fairly generic for a caster getting to a high DC. And I actually appreciate where rizz is coming from on hitting that base 30 without compromising a lot for what would effectively be, in both cases, the DC stat. At the same time, towards the end, I had room for all sorts of extras, in all the 'extraneous' I picked up were 2 spf/gspf/espf's, two metamagics, smd, 2 eschews, an epic spell, and even 3 toughness feats. So it's not actually a 100% chance of being a one trick pony. If hitting that stat were a true one trick pony scenario, as in focus on DC kill, I'd lose all those extras save for 1 spf/gspf/espf progression. Which is 11 feats. Which is pretty darn flexible for any direction of roleplay.
Now, I know Wren's build, but I don't know what stat spread he began with. My PC's spread is fairly obvious, a dump str, then a 10/16/12/10. So... a semi-clear spread for maxing the DC stat. Wren was maybe more like Ketil in going for a str/dex/con/pseudo-int or wis stat spread... which is hard. Really hard. And I do sympathize with the lack of great strength feats being inherent to ftr bonuses. If it were the same for great charisma and sorcerors... then yeah! - it would've been more tricky figuring out the progression. That said, 8 great cha's to hit 36, and 11 'extras'. Subtract the pre epic 'extras' and you're left with 5 'extras' in the epics... which would have made that 30 mark more challenging for certain, but certainly plenty attainable.
So... I get both sides of that argument. But here's the dev crit argument:
Versus mass kill spells that is. Yeah, I don't like mass kills. Yeah, I have a 43 dc'er so I'm a hippocrit. But after playing and developing other games/ servers and seeing their systems... I really wish caster spells were 1) on individual spell timers instead of rest cycles, and 2) single target hits especially in the case of death and disabling spells.
But here's where it's tricky on dev crit. I have 9 mass-death spells on rest. I can hit plenty of mobs and rack up the killings, but it's very finite. Also, the server has been balanced to show a fair spread of 1) TS creatures for weird, 2) Death immunity for wail, 3) SR or spell school immunity for both, and 4) base saving throw inherent immunity.
Only #4 is applicable on dev crit unless something was changed in the mechanics. Additionally, while it's impressive to take out 20 creatures in a single mass-death spell... the average optimized hasted dual wielding dev critter is going to have 7 DC 40-44 attempts per spell casting round. Anything that's not fixed at the aforementioned #4 is going to die. Someone smarter can show the math. Also, what pibe is saying on not hitting higher level creatures, even at dc 43, most of the CR 35 and up crowd is off limits. And I only have 9 chances. A dev critter is still going to grab those during an ordinary melee encounter, with upwards of 30 chances for the high HP critters (which most are tweaked to be without a CON/ fort increase). And with a few regen ears and heal kits... you can keep going and going.
Now, I understand both ends of this, but I'd also say that it's easy to personalize the argument to one's own PC. In fact, rizz likely did when he read that last sentence with the 'going and going', since at the same CR the survivability and lack of spells makes it somewhat unapplicable. But... switch the build. Change it to a 12/5/23 monk fighter cleric who happened to manage kukri dual wielding RP. A bit of an awkward build stretch scenario for sure I'll admit.
It's easy to point out mages and sorcerors because there are so many of them. And it's because they're easy to play, the whole way through. And from level 15 to 30 they are at a huge mechanical advantage towards progression. Even if they have no optimization whatsoever, they're still just kinda laid back in variable survivability. Meanwhile pure melees are left with an easy time from 1-12, then usually suicide missions (comparatively) from level 16 on up. But... that's not the argument. The argument is regarding a feat. Which is applicable across a huge spectrum of builds and classes. And yes - I'm happy to show what the server looks like in the hands of an optimized dev critter if a DM wants me to run a test build through the hardest areas of the server solo - and it's a world apart from some optimized mage.
But I feel your pain bud. The baseline mechanics have a whole lot of things that just make it overly hard with certain aspects of development, and as much development that has been done by the 20 gallon brains like orth on giving perks to underdogs... it's still working with a DnD baseline that's just poorly thought out regarding an online video game community balance.
Woo... still wordy as ever. Sorry.
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Hehehe. Ahh, good times.
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Good points Chongo. I think the biggest issue in regard to balance is that because of the need to balance for groups, the focus is generally on hitpoints and not so much on AC. Even at the high end, creatures are generally easy to hit but take a lot of damage before they fall.
It's just a lot easier and more practical to balance encounters with adding hitpoints and damage reduction, than it is with AC.
That is why mass death spells or dev. critical are so powerful. The amount of hitpoints on a creature becomes meaningless.
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Good points Chongo. I think the biggest issue in regard to balance is that because of the need to balance for groups, the focus is generally on hitpoints and not so much on AC. Even at the high end, creatures are generally easy to hit but take a lot of damage before they fall.
It's just a lot easier and more practical to balance encounters with adding hitpoints and damage reduction, than it is with AC.
That is why mass death spells or dev. critical are so powerful. The amount of hitpoints on a creature becomes meaningless.
I will fully admit that I have always had a tendency to raise HP instead of AC. And its exactly as you said - group balance, prolonging the battle. You'll find a large percentage of the epic creatures on Layo have artificially inflated HP/ DR, while still being fairly easy to hit for the average player at that CR - in fact, I'd guess in most cases a good 5 levels lower. And... this might be faulty. You're absolutely right in regard to increasing effectiveness of instant death, in any form. I dunno - same could be said of AC. HP/ DR always seemed to help out the underdog more, as hitting the AC increase track balances to maximized player builds moreso then HP/DR. Dunno .. the game just gets *so* easy at same-CR when its in a group. And with the emphasis on group over solo, you can't translate the arguments between them.
....except with mages due to mass death spells. People see this, and it's an exception to group vs. solo balance. And so the attempt, right or wrong, is made to translate solo melee to the same exception. But it's wrapping one's head around an exception instead of the intention. That said, I empathize and still feel bad that it is the way it is. When Orth and I were reworking spells (read: he did all the real work), the ending thought was to not take away from anyone in the changes. While the contention was made to change mass death to single-hitters or something like d4 + additional effect, it was decided to not take away anything from anyone, and try to just give instead.
This is a bit of a derail... but the goal is to show how its easy to wrap ones head around an exception and raise the bar elsewhere to match it. But its not the intended balance, and dev crit being easier to attain certainly should be. That said, the irony of the dev crit requirement to me has always been that the requirement itself lends itself to a more powerful outcome, which railroads it to more gimpy DC builds. I believe this was discussed several times, and certainly during the feat/ spell rework. I just don't think it made the cut.
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wizards can't start a huge mele fight with a spawn.
fighters can't as well ;)
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While it is great to work out the numbers on how any powerful feat would be devastating given the perfect build it does not address the norm or not so perfect builds. It also does not address the fact that we travel in groups so even if a fighter had dev crit it would not be killing everything in sight since the casters in the group do most of that.
Dev crit is not so powerful when you frame it around the normal builds and group play.
Furthermore we keep looking at dev crit in its max mode. Meaning that as Chongo said "the irony of the dev crit requirement to me has always been that the requirement itself lends itself to a more powerful outcome, which railroads it to more gimpy DC builds". We should look at how "powerful" it would be if the pre req was 27 STR and the melee build was not fully optimized.
Lastly putting dev crit within reach of more PCs is not going to create a storm of additional soloers. Melee PCs still need caster buffs to survive most fights.
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Lets also remember the dev crit will not work against undead, constructs, ooze, and elementals of which there are a surprising number in Layo. I would also wager that there are other creatures in Layo that have been amped to be immune to critical hits. Like say Dragons?
I also think the requirement of 30 Strength is a bit absurd. What other feats require a 30 ability? Dragon Shape? Not to start another comparison of feats, but in my opinion Dragon Shape blows away Dev Crit as far as it's effectiveness in Layo.
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Self-Concealment requires 30 Dexterity.
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I would also wager that there are other creatures in Layo that have been amped to be immune to critical hits. Like say Dragons?
I actually rarely made things crit or sneak attack immune. Pretty exceptional cases when trying to promote a variable group with reverse balance logic. Not sure if anyone ever noticed the number of DnD standard crit immune that just weren't. Can't speak for the other builders though.
I also think the requirement of 30 Strength is a bit absurd. What other feats require a 30 ability? Dragon Shape? Not to start another comparison of feats, but in my opinion Dragon Shape blows away Dev Crit as far as it's effectiveness in Layo.
I'd personally take a dev critter over a dragon shape most days of the week. Not to say dragon shape isn't fun and neat, but effectiveness? You're speaking more of the class backing it than the feat. I can make a melee druid with dev crit and we can have them compare results if you like. I'll admit it'd probably go in favor of the dragon since it's so easy to max out spell power with... just saying.
Dev crit is not so powerful when you frame it around the normal builds and group play.
Furthermore we keep looking at dev crit in its max mode. Meaning that as Chongo said "the irony of the dev crit requirement to me has always been that the requirement itself lends itself to a more powerful outcome, which railroads it to more gimpy DC builds". We should look at how "powerful" it would be if the pre req was 27 STR and the melee build was not fully optimized.
Yeah... when I said that I meant more that it should require something like 2 applicable epic skill focus feats, all the initiative feats, epic prowess, thug, improved power attack, etc etc. Disclaimer: I don't actually recommend these feats, I'm just pointing out semi-extraneous ones. Not just to change the STR requirement. Heck, you could eliminate the STR requirement altogether and put up 8 feat reqs that make sense, and don't just add to balance irony.
Lastly putting dev crit within reach of more PCs is not going to create a storm of additional soloers. Melee PCs still need caster buffs to survive most fights.
You're confusing melee with caster/ non-caster. It's exceptionally easy to make a dev critting caster. So... it shouldn't be part of the argument.
I'm all for dev crit changing. So don't get me wrong. It just seems this server is mostly ignorant of what can be done with it, and what will be done with it. The tit for tat balance arguments are just all over the place and show that folks honestly just aren't that aware of the feat. And it should never cite the current PC examples, change for current PC examples, nor assume it will maintain a low balance average. And it shouldn't just be peeled back a bit on the str requirement. It should either change in how it functions (I made it a flat crit damage bonus on my old old unsuccessful server), or require a broader, less streamlined set of feat requirements.
Anyhow - I don't mean to argue it, just think it takes several steps back to fix it, not just a half step.
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Oh they are a surprising amount of things that are immune to sneak I Remember having a hard time with Brian when he was still around. Giants and bugbear was his main course. But that's an aside thing. I haven't met too many things in the higher level range that were actually immune to crits, but that's probably because I haven't traveled to the higher places yet.
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On a side note I think it is way unfair that great STR is not a bonus feat and that on Layo the pre req STR for Dev Crit got raised by 5 points. Great STR not being a bonus feat WAS the balancing for dev crit. :( So dev crit on Layo has been over worked in the balancing effort ;)
I would suggest dropping the dev crit STR req to 27 or 28. With Great STR not being a bonus feat it will still take sacrifice and work to get to a base of 27. But at least it will be reachable by more fighter classes.
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Albert Einstein :p
http://forums.layonara.com/nwn-ideas-suggestions-requests/97498-dev-crit.html
http://forums.layonara.com/nwn-ideas-suggestions-requests/256652-de-nerf-dev-crit-thread.html
Sorry if that seems rude but my post about max ability had nothing at all to do about drev crit, I find the thread hijacking unnecessary more so because that precise argument has been addressed in previous posts.
(http://i.brainyquote.com/i/t.gif)
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I envy you guys that can make characters with the sole purpose of maximising a stat to achieve best results with regards to combat. I've often made characters that would come into their glory by the time they reach level 25 but I get to level 8 and think.."god this is boring", and hence delete them.
The only thing I think is unbalanced is having PWK giving will saves as this is relatively easy to get and most things have a crappy will save.
I think a warrior with Dev Crit would be a joy to play. The one thing I can't stand is the need to rest or no magic zones. For this reason alone they definately outshine a mage anyday.
Cheers,
Polak.
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Well yeah, Power Word: Kill has a will save, yet there are a multitude of creatures on every continent of the world that are immune to Mind Affecting Spells & Effects, which makes them immune to it.
Much like you can't expect to go to a crypt and blast the heck out of the undead there with Negative Energy spells and Wails of the Banshee, you can't expect to go to say the same crypt/elementals/constructs/dragon/some-other-thing-that-is-immune-to-mind-effects and blast them to death with PWK. :)
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I've often made characters that would come into their glory by the time they reach level 25 but I get to level 8 and think.."god this is boring", and hence delete them.
Right there with ya. As glorious as that cleric with dev crit would be after a handful of great wisdoms to get the casting up to speed by the late 20's and finally getting that dev crit at level 39.... it's a lot more fun to actually function for the first two years of playing.
The only thing I think is unbalanced is having PWK giving will saves as this is relatively easy to get and most things have a crappy will save.
This isn't accurate.
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Take all insta kill powers out of the game. Everyone okay with that?
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Take all insta kill powers out of the game. Everyone okay with that?
Absolutely not. Save-or-die is a key element to this type of game. I don't know how the MMO will go, but taking out save-or-lose from a D&D based game would be like taking out critical hits, or balancing casters with noncasters.
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My personal feeling about Dev crit is that it should be a limited use targetable ability much like WM ki strike ability is. Makes more sense to me that way...otherwise I think youd look like tasmanian devil when trying to chop everyones head off in one swoop.
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My personal feeling about Dev crit is that it should be a limited use targetable ability much like WM ki strike ability is. Makes more sense to me that way...otherwise I think youd look like tasmanian devil when trying to chop everyones head off in one swoop.
You want to make it like Ki Strike? You mean, completely useless?
Devestating Critical as a per/day would function better as a duration effect - you get the benefits of the feat for a certain duration, a certain number of times per day. That would necessitate lower entry requirements, though.
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But after playing and developing other games/ servers and seeing their systems... I really wish caster spells were 1) on individual spell timers instead of rest cycles, and 2) single target hits especially in the case of death and disabling spells.
Devestating Critical as a per/day would function better as a duration effect - you get the benefits of the feat for a certain duration, a certain number of times per day. That would necessitate lower entry requirements, though.
Agreed. And henceforth it shall be known as Dragon Age.
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**snickers**
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Aerimor is very wise.
And Raz is very smart and very unwise.
An old post and perhaps a bit off topic but just have to say...
With Aerimore being very wise and Raz being very intelligent then does that mean...
Aerimor is a simpleton
and
Raz is an absent minded professor?
:D read the descriptions for Wisdom and intelligence and you'll see what I mean. :D
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Those are just examples but the basic point here is that wisdom doesn't require a scientific/mathematic/tactical mind.
Raz can be expected (i think) to come up with tricks and tactics on the fly, solve puzzles quickly, get through a maths equation quicker and probably figure out the nuances behind spellcraft faster if he were so inclined. Not saying that character would for all those things but I'd say those attributes if you like are representative of intelligence.
Same sort of idea here (not saying he is in all those regards but I think they come under wisdom): Aerimor however can probably be counted on seeing the subtler meanings behind intentions and motivations of others; see paths of action that may otherwise be obscured to more short-sighted or un-mindful types, understand the viewpoints of others and mediate between them (diplomacy), see outcomes of decisions that are most likely even before they arrive etc.
Not the best sum up but I think it gets the main idea across. Intelligence is more 'in the moment' and wisdom is abit more far-sighted. One is guided by a building block type methodology and the other is abit more free-flowing and creative. I think.
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@drakogear: Meet them and find out.