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Author Topic: Ask the Loremaster: Death  (Read 496 times)

EdTheKet

Ask the Loremaster: Death
« on: May 18, 2009, 02:06:57 pm »
I hope it speaks for itself:
http://forums.layonara.com/1306662-post5.html

If not, ask here!
 

Script Wrecked

Re: Ask the Loremaster: Death
« Reply #1 on: May 18, 2009, 02:56:41 pm »
How much of this is known in game, particularly by the characters, and specifically this rather daunting section:

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Souls and the Pits of Endless Strife
Souls that did not follow a deity, or were not picked by one when waiting to be judged by the Harvester, will migrate towards the Thread.

To reach the Thread however, they will need to go through the Pits of Endless Strife. The nefarious creatures of the Pits will always want to capture souls to gain more power. The more souls one has, the larger the Pit, the more powerful the creature dominating the Pit in question.

A master of a Pit always has competition from the others in that same pit so any soul passing through the Pits of Endless Strife is highly likely to be devoured.
 

EdTheKet

Re: Ask the Loremaster: Death
« Reply #2 on: May 18, 2009, 03:18:14 pm »
Quote from: Script Wrecked
How much of this is known in game, particularly by the characters, and specifically this rather daunting section:
Quote
Souls and the Pits of Endless Strife
Souls that did not follow a deity, or were not picked by one when waiting to be judged by the Harvester, will migrate towards the Thread.

To reach the Thread however, they will need to go through the Pits of Endless Strife. The nefarious creatures of the Pits will always want to capture souls to gain more power. The more souls one has, the larger the Pit, the more powerful the creature dominating the Pit in question.

A master of a Pit always has competition from the others in that same pit so any soul passing through the Pits of Endless Strife is highly likely to be devoured.


Good question.

The only thing that is somewhat known is that Pit creatures collect souls. And this would only be known by somebody who has studied the Pits, no common knowledge.

Nothing about the judging, the migrating to the Thread, or the nature of the Thread is known.
 

Pseudonym

Re: Ask the Loremaster: Death
« Reply #3 on: May 18, 2009, 08:43:10 pm »
Does someone returning (via resurrection and the like) from the Binding Void retain any knowledge/memory of their (up to) 3 day stay?
 

Marswipp

Re: Ask the Loremaster: Death
« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2009, 12:05:00 am »
Wouldn't it have to be 2:23:59:59.999(infinite 9) tops? That'd be hard to meet, if you ask me.
Playing D&D 3.5e, D&D 5e, Pathfinder, and exploring Starfinder through a VTT
 

jrizz

Re: Ask the Loremaster: Death
« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2009, 01:09:24 am »
So there is no soul mother that collects soul strands and that is just a superstitious explanation of a soul strand snapping.

A soul strand snapping is just a natural event that could occur on the stress of death.

When your soul leaves your body and there are no strands still attached the soul goes into the process of judgment.

There is no soul mother collecting souls.
 

Hellblazer

Re: Ask the Loremaster: Death
« Reply #6 on: May 19, 2009, 01:26:46 am »
I think the harvester is meant as the soul mother. The soul mother being a nick name giving out by superstition?

ycleption

Re: Ask the Loremaster: Death
« Reply #7 on: May 19, 2009, 01:29:43 am »
The Harvester is not a new being, and is distinct from the Soul Mother.
 

Pankoki

Re: Ask the Loremaster: Death
« Reply #8 on: May 19, 2009, 02:06:37 am »
The Harvester and the Soul Mother are two separate entities, yes. Both with unique functions and very real. Ed can elaborate on how much is known about their relationship, but if you ask in-game (particularly with the older players) there are many incidents that included them both to different capacities. Of course this isn't easy information to come by, and the characters that know, might not be willing to disclose fully.
 

jrizz

Re: Ask the Loremaster: Death
« Reply #9 on: May 19, 2009, 02:21:07 am »
The link that Ed provided about death (http://forums.layonara.com/1306662-post5.html) covers the realm of death and what happens to the soul and very cleanly works into it the behaviors of the death system. In it there is no mention of the soul mother and souls being collected by some being, other then what happens to unclaimed souls:

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b.   No deity claims the soul and it is cast into the Binding (which also borders the Binding Void) by the Harvester when the three day period is up. There the soul will then migrate through the elemental planes and the Pits of Endless Strife towards the Thread which will absorb the soul.


So maybe the soul mother and the Thread are the same (I dont know) but it is clear from his description that the soul mother does not snap/collect soul strings nor does she come collecting souls.
 

EdTheKet

Re: Ask the Loremaster: Death
« Reply #10 on: May 19, 2009, 02:37:57 am »
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Does someone returning (via resurrection and the like) from the Binding Void retain any knowledge/memory of their (up to) 3 day stay?[/quote[ No, they do not recall a thing.

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So there is no soul mother that collects soul strands and that is just a superstitious explanation of a soul strand snapping.
But because people don't really know what happens, any superstition works really.

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A soul strand snapping is just a natural event that could occur on the stress of death.
Yep, but again, who would know for sure? :) (IC I mean). We put the document there to inform the players, I'd like to ask everyone to keep in mind their characters do not know such details, so can believe that something/somebody cuts them, or that some creature eats them, or that some invisible boomerang flies around that cuts them.

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When your soul leaves your body and there are no strands still attached the soul goes into the process of judgment.

There is no soul mother collecting souls.
Well, there -is- a Soul Mother and there -is- the Harvester of Souls. The question you all have is "What does she do then?" but there's only two people that know in the full and we're not telling :)


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So maybe the soul mother and the Thread are the same (I dont know) but it is clear from his description that the soul mother does not snap/collect soul strings nor does she come collecting souls.

Correct, the Soul Mother does not snap/collect souls, however, I point out that Pankoki's post is also valid: there were incidents that included both the Soul Mother and the Harvester in different capacities. I also point out that I am not saying she cannot collect souls. I'm saying she does not in the process I put up.
 

jrizz

Re: Ask the Loremaster: Death
« Reply #11 on: May 19, 2009, 03:48:51 am »
Ok this is in good nature ;) and I am just getting clarity as a person that plays in the world and loves games and all that they include (world, structure, rules, lore, and all aspects).

You gave us an OOC explanation of death and did not put the soul mother in it. But then said there is still a soul mother and we are not telling what she does :) So does that not mean that the OOC explanation (which as I noted fits perfectly with the death system and I think that is great!) is incomplete and subject to change based on whatever the whole soul mother things finally turns out to be? I am going to guess that for continuity you will say "yep" since in the past there has been PC interaction with the soul mother (as per Pan's post). But some of what is in your OOC explanation stands as set:

The soul mother does not snap souls.
If you follow a deity your soul is "safe" from "collection".


:)
 

EdTheKet

Re: Ask the Loremaster: Death
« Reply #12 on: May 19, 2009, 07:21:22 am »
Good natured reply below :)


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You gave us an OOC explanation of death and did not put the soul mother in it.
Correct.

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But then said there is still a soul mother and we are not telling what she does
Correct.

Quote
So does that not mean that the OOC explanation (which as I noted fits perfectly with the death system and I think that is great!) is incomplete
Yes, from your point of view it is incomplete.
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and subject to change based on whatever the whole soul mother things finally turns out to be?
The part I left out is not subject to change. It is defined, but not shared. And if it’s any comfort, it fits just as perfectly.


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The soul mother does not snap souls.
Under the Death system as explained she does not do this as a standard. I did imply that even though she does not, it does not mean she cannot.
All interactions referred to above were events run personally by Leanthar, or on his behalf. So by saying that she does not, but implying that she can, the door is left open for events like this, and that is intentional.

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If you follow a deity your soul is "safe" from "collection".
Usually. See my comment on leaving a door open.
Also, consider the situation if the deity dies/leaves/falls?:p Then said deity's portion of the Heavens will cease to exist, and those poor poor souls will be out there.... No further comment there ;)
 

Nehetsrev

Re: Ask the Loremaster: Death
« Reply #13 on: May 19, 2009, 07:33:41 am »
Wouldn't it be neat if after death, those souls not claimed by a diety had the chance to try to fight/navigate their way through the pits to the Thread in-game?  Sort of a 'bonus' bit of end-game play.

*shrugs*

Just an idea I thought I'd throw out there, since folks who lose a character might still be concerned with what happens to that character's soul after perming.  Might be something to consider for the MMO if not for the NWN incarnation.
 

lonnarin

Re: Ask the Loremaster: Death
« Reply #14 on: May 19, 2009, 10:33:56 am »
It is my personal suspicion that the Soul Mother doesn't just take souls, but that she recycles them and redistributes them into the new bodies created via mortal procreation.  Hence why she is called the Soul Mother and not the Soul Eater.  After all, we keep asking about death, but what of birth?  Those souls don't just pop out of nowhere. The Harvester takes, the Soul Mother gives.  Two separate entities, one of death, the other of birth.  Look at the etymology of their titles... Harvester: he gathers for a purpose.  One doesn't harvest a crop to just burn the grain.  Mother: birth.  if she is mother to souls, then she must logically be infusing them into the new bodies.

Souls might be much like matter and energy, neither created nor destroyed but changing form. Some cling to Gods' realms to add to their power, others get stolen by hungry demons to feed their own realms vampirically.  keep in mind that resurrection occurs only with divine magic; some god's agenda being served.  They are very picky about this and tend not to easily allow the raising of those sworn to enemy gods.  Competition for soul power?

But then what of population booms and more souls being around than before?  Well... there are less dragons, elves, dwarves, gnomes, etc in the world than in the olden times.  (and don't get me started on the near extinct centaur, unicorns & Tolelf'lor!)  And wouldn't such a long lived being have a rather stronger soul than normal, possibly a dragon being able to feed 100 elves and an elf soul feeding 2 or 3 human ones?  Some things to ponder...  Bloodstone did kill a whole lot of dragons, and then a whole lot of people afterwards.  Those souls didnt just vanish, they merely migrated.

None of this could/would be confirmed nor denied, just my own suspicions. ;)

And fiends... willful souls that strayed from the path of the thread to avoid rebirth/losing their consciousness in order to become "soul bandits" and further their agenda?  Possibly.  I bet souls like Bloodstone are still lurking out there.  That Bloodpool could have been just his version of the eternal Bindstone.  Look at the massive explosion that happened when he died.  That doesn't happen with just anyone.  It was like when the EPA guy shut down the nuclear reactor powering the Ghostbusters' confinement chamber. KABOOM!  Even Obi Wan could feel it when Alderon died.  And the conditions left in the world after Bloodstone's death (the Dark Ages) could very well have been responsible for more deaths via starvation and strife than the multitudes he relocated in life.  Maybe his agenda was not all that malevolent?  He died, and suddenly we were swarmed by vengeful dragons in hiding.  Soul mongers.  He could very well have been acting in the best interests of humanity.

This would also imply that both the Harvester and the Mother have a great disdain for the undead and fiends, who disrupt the natural cycle in order to live forever in the mortal realm after their time has come.

I think that the Soul Mother gets way too much bad press.  She does allow a select few die at least 10 times via bindstones.  Maybe these souls were intended to help her and the Harvester flush out the demons and undead clogging the system?  Toranites could be the plunger, and Aeridenites the Drano of this cosmic scheme.

Things to ponder.
 

EdTheKet

Re: Ask the Loremaster: Death
« Reply #15 on: May 19, 2009, 12:52:32 pm »
Quote from: lonnarin
It is my personal suspicion that the Soul Mother doesn't just take souls, but that she recycles them and redistributes them into the new bodies created via mortal procreation.  Hence why she is called the Soul Mother and not the Soul Eater.  After all, we keep asking about death, but what of birth?  Those souls don't just pop out of nowhere. The Harvester takes, the Soul Mother gives.  Two separate entities, one of death, the other of birth.  Look at the etymology of their titles... Harvester: he gathers for a purpose.  One doesn't harvest a crop to just burn the grain.  Mother: birth.  if she is mother to souls, then she must logically be infusing them into the new bodies.

Souls might be much like matter and energy, neither created nor destroyed but changing form. Some cling to Gods' realms to add to their power, others get stolen by hungry demons to feed their own realms vampirically.  keep in mind that resurrection occurs only with divine magic; some god's agenda being served.  They are very picky about this and tend not to easily allow the raising of those sworn to enemy gods.  Competition for soul power?

But then what of population booms and more souls being around than before?  Well... there are less dragons, elves, dwarves, gnomes, etc in the world than in the olden times.  (and don't get me started on the near extinct centaur, unicorns & Tolelf'lor!)  And wouldn't such a long lived being have a rather stronger soul than normal, possibly a dragon being able to feed 100 elves and an elf soul feeding 2 or 3 human ones?  Some things to ponder...  Bloodstone did kill a whole lot of dragons, and then a whole lot of people afterwards.  Those souls didnt just vanish, they merely migrated.

None of this could/would be confirmed nor denied, just my own suspicions. ;)

And fiends... willful souls that strayed from the path of the thread to avoid rebirth/losing their consciousness in order to become "soul bandits" and further their agenda?  Possibly.  I bet souls like Bloodstone are still lurking out there.  That Bloodpool could have been just his version of the eternal Bindstone.  Look at the massive explosion that happened when he died.  That doesn't happen with just anyone.  It was like when the EPA guy shut down the nuclear reactor powering the Ghostbusters' confinement chamber. KABOOM!  Even Obi Wan could feel it when Alderon died.  And the conditions left in the world after Bloodstone's death (the Dark Ages) could very well have been responsible for more deaths via starvation and strife than the multitudes he relocated in life.  Maybe his agenda was not all that malevolent?  He died, and suddenly we were swarmed by vengeful dragons in hiding.  Soul mongers.  He could very well have been acting in the best interests of humanity.

This would also imply that both the Harvester and the Mother have a great disdain for the undead and fiends, who disrupt the natural cycle in order to live forever in the mortal realm after their time has come.

I think that the Soul Mother gets way too much bad press.  She does allow a select few die at least 10 times via bindstones.  Maybe these souls were intended to help her and the Harvester flush out the demons and undead clogging the system?  Toranites could be the plunger, and Aeridenites the Drano of this cosmic scheme.

Things to ponder.


Interesting theorizing, lonnarin. Of course I cannot comment, but all points you bring to the table have actually been defined and thought out.


And as for this:
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And the conditions left in the world after Bloodstone's death (the Dark Ages) could very well have been responsible for more deaths via starvation and strife than the multitudes he relocated in life. Maybe his agenda was not all that malevolent?

That is true. Bad Dragoncalled, bad!!!
 ;)