Average joe's life

[ycleption]

We get a little bit lost in the adventurer lifestyle, sometimes I lose sight about the ordinary people in the world...

1.) Average Joe's economic concerns: how much do goods for non-adventurers types cost? For instance, how much would a commoner family of four need to make in a year in order to have a subsistence lifestyle, assuming they aren't farmers or otherwise self-sufficient?
With the current state of the world, is there even food to be bought for those who have a more true?
I think it's useful to know this kind of thing, (Let's see, I could buy a new sword, or save 100 people from starvation...) for various roleplaying reasons.


2.) Average Joe's religion: Is the adventuring population representative of the general population's religious preferences? If I'm a commoner in a random village, do I worship a single diety of personal choice? a diety favored by the town or region? A few related dieties? Or do I just utter prayers to whoever is convenient at the time?
What about ceremonies/rituals? Do I attend a temple on a regular basis? if so, how often?

Thanks in advance for any answers or insight

[lonnarin]

I've heard conflicting viewpoints on the first part.  I do remember a quest where we had to feed a hungry ogre eggs, and we managed to buy them off Farmer Part for literally 1gp since he was only charging a couple copper and we had no coins smaller.  Of course, these weren't actual inventory eggs we could use in crafting, but imaginary ones we had to keep track of and try not to crack on the way to the ogre.  On the flip side, you walk into a tavern and see the cheapest ale around 23gp and plenty of shiftless bums drinking.  Since Ed rewrote the section about currency and introducing the "True", it has been stated a few times that there are no denominations of coin less than a single goldpiece "true", and discussions about the economy indicate that the realms are supposedly swimming in gold.  I honestly couldnt answer this myself, since I've seen so much conflicting evidence for and against a seperate economy for adventurers and peasants.  One thing does occur to me however, that the poor might also trade on a bartering basis for many of their goods trying to survive when gold is scarce.  Trading a bag of rice for a chicken might often be more reasonable than bringing gold into the equation when you're talking peasant economics.

As for the second part, I would assume that places where there are temples have higher rates of faithful people in them, but in no population is religion truly uniform either in fantasy or real life.  Look to state theocracies like Iran and even though you have the religion as literally the law of the land, there are still christians, jews, buddhists, hindus and the like within their borders without the sponsorship of the state.  I would assume that much is the same in the realms, that while there are larger clusters of followers in cities with temples and that the local governments exert some favoritism for them, that a uniform acceptance by all of the citizens therein is unrealistic.  As for who gets to go to temple weekly, that it influenced by two big factors... 1) religious dedication and 2) easy access to the temple in question.  So while there may be a large amount of dedicated followers to Deliar in Hempsteed that do indeed go to weekly services, it is unlikely that a Voraxian living in the city would have the opportunity to have frequent services, their temple being all the way over in Ulgrid.  I suspect that they might have a handful of priests here or there living in the cities that they could visit for blessings, and they might even hold prayer meetings and services of their own, but so far from a temple, it wouldn't be as official a service as the ones the dwarves of Ulgrid would be getting.  Then again, if a follower is dedicated enough, it is entirely possible that he would make regular pilgrimages to the temple in Vorax, and I don't doubt that there would be minor shrines here and there in the homes of the faithful.  Of course these are just my assumptions, Ed and Leanthar know for certain.

Speaking for myself, Bjornigar has his own shrine and altar to Dorand in his house, and when I was playing him heavily, he would seek out other Dorandites to take to the temple in Lar regularly.  Even though he's a Defender and not really a member of the clergy persay, he would pray with other followers of the faith, and pray for people in the crafthall that Dorand would guide their hands to success in their crafts.  I suspect that similar interactions would occur among the NPC peasant population to some extent.

[kuchida]

Just a thought but in a society like this with many dieties who have their own things they govern over, wouldn't the average citizen (or really, non-cleric) be praying to whatever god she needed help from at the time (based on what was in their spere of influence?)

That would be more in line with ancient civilizations from Babylon to Rome to the Mayas, even Hindu is in some respects like this...  There could even be a case made for Catholics and Saints..  Pray and donate to Dorand if you're crafting at the time, Deliar if you're making a major transaction, Toran if you were wronged, Aeriden if you're sick, Katia if making a long journey through the woods...  That's not to say there aren't plenty who are devoted to one religion but that doesn't always have to be the case...  And there could be many who follow one religion but would make an occasional trip to another temple of an allied diety if they needed help in something more appropriate to their domains..  

Comparisons to modern religions kind of don't work I think, because they tend to be monotheistic and/or exclude all other religions as false.. They may exist in the same civilization, and even be friendly, but they don't believe the other one's God exists or that the other religion has any merit.  In Layonara all dieties certainly do exist, and while a worshipper may think think the other one's followers are misguided or even dangerous they don't deny that they are worshipping a divine power..

[lonnarin]

I certainly think that to be the case for many people.  It would be ackward to ask Vorax for example for help wooing a pretty lass when that's more of Ilsare's realm. Much like ancient Greece, Rome & Egypt, I think many commonfolk and adventurers would pray to different gods based upon what aspects they govern.  

Priests of specific dieties would often be an exception I'd think, since they have a greedy goal of making their god powerful above all others, and would be more reluctant to ever pray to another god for fear of offending their own.  Certainly they would never pray to a god that was an enemy of their own, and they might even use those god's names in explatives like "Madness of Corath!" or "by the ire of Sulterio!" when they were angry.  Of course in the case of Grand, the relationship with Dorand is so heated that Grandites aren't even allowed to speak the name of Dorand, fearing that it would bring him power just to acknowledge him.

Some priests *might* offer prayers to other deities, but only those very strongly allied to their gods, and it would be less of a prayer and more of a call to arms.  One example I could think of would be priests of dieties who were sponsored by other ones, like the close relationship between Rofirien and his guardian Toran. In that relationship, it reads almost as if some amount of polytheism would have to occur for that deity relationship to work... Rofirien writes the laws and manages the courts, and for a while, the Justicars of Toran were the official enforcers of that law.  That would indicate a sort of allied pantheon wherein many of the beliefs and scriptures are shared between their faiths.

I think also some of the more hardcore faithful priests would be more likely to pray to their own gods for matters that their god didnt really govern, turning the situation into metaphor of the god's aspect.  For example, a Voraxian priest might pray to Vorax for the eye of a lover instead of Ilsare, phrasing it in terms of "Conquest of the Heart" and "Smite low her doubts of mine love!".  A Dorandite might pray for love in a sense like "Dorand, help me lay the foundations for this relationship and build upon it the stone and mortar of matrimony".  A Deliarite might ask his god that his health be "profitable", a Berylite might ask for protection of a loved one so that "they may ever shine and sparkle, not a single facet to come to harm"  "grand, shower dwarf-blood over their tickets and let me win this raffle!"  "Pyrtechon, set this grocery market on fire so that I may sift through the ashes and find the tenderest, sweetest melon". etc...

It definitely depends on the worshipper in question and the amount of devotion they have to their god.  Conversely, some unfaithful people might even pay lip service to the gods on a need by need basis much like one would knock on wood for luck.  It depends on the individual and the nature of their faith.

[Weeblie]

As for the deity question...

There are many factors in here. Location and race being two very huge parts.

For example, a general human living in a normal town/city would most probably not be following any particular god or goddess. Instead, one would pick "the deity that suits the need for the situation".

Elves in Voltrex would most probably have a much higher tendency to follow Aeridin (and to a smaller degree, Ilsare) than not to.

Dwarves in dwarven clans would most probably have a higher tendency to follow Vorax or Dorand (dwarven gods, wink, wink).

Halflings... yeah... same thing there!

[EdTheKet]

Good questions!

1.) Average Joe's economic concerns: how much do goods for non-adventurers types cost? For instance, how much would a commoner family of four need to make in a year in order to have a subsistence lifestyle, assuming they aren't farmers or otherwise self-sufficient?

We've thought about making such a pricelist, but with the virtually endless amount of gold in game, the first comments would be "Then why do I have to pay that much gold for a room at the inn?"
So the list wouldn't be representative of in game prices. In any event, I do have this, but this is draft, so can change prior to the finalization of the new handbook.

Peasants are defined as farmers, herders, or land workers that work directly for a fiefdom and are directly controlled in some way by the royalty of the fiefdom or the kingdom that they fall under.

Commoners are defined as merchants or tradesmen that do not work on the land or work directly for royalty in a fiefdom or kingdom, though they almost always work indirectly with or for them in some way.

What is the average income per year of a peasant?
The average yearly income of a commoner is 24 True per year.

What is the average income per year of a commoner?
The average yearly income of a commoner is 72 True per year.

What is the average yearly income of a rich commoner?
The average income of a rich commoner is 500 True per year

What is the average income of low ranking royalty?
The average yearly income of low ranking royalty is 1000 True per year.

What is the average yearly income of mid-level ranking royalty?
The average income of mid-level ranking royalty is 8000 True per year.

What is the cost of an oxen?
100 True

What is the cost of a low-end riding horse that is slightly trained for riding, pulling wagons, or light packing? These horses are not for adventuring and would never be able to be trained for that sort of task.
3,000 True

What is the cost of a rugged horse that can handle knights, adventurers, combat, or heavy packing?
15,000 True.

What is the cost of a Paladin’s warhorse?
If a horse like this is ever sold, which they are not, it would be worth at least 40,000 True.

What is the percent of commoners that own a horse?
Less than ½ of a percent of commoners own a riding horse. Peasants are not known to own horses.

What is the cost of a peasant mud hut?
A small 10x10 mud and straw hut costs 1000 True. But royalty usually allow peasants to stay in these huts since they are working on the land in some way for the fiefdom.

What is the cost of a small commoner’s house?
These small wood or stone that have some mud and straw 10x10 houses start at 5,000 True.

What is the cost of an average wood or stone house for commoners?
An average wood or stone house with a dimension of 14’x18’ costs 16,000 True.

What is the most widespread crop?
The most widespread crop is wheat. It is used for bread, mead, and many other things dealing with food and drink. This is followed fairly closely by potatoes since it is a very filling food.

With the current state of the world, is there even food to be bought for those who have a more true?
I think it's useful to know this kind of thing, (Let's see, I could buy a new sword, or save 100 people from starvation...) for various roleplaying reasons.

Food is rare and hence expensive. So yeah, you can buy that sword, or donate to temples for them to feed the ones that starve.

2.) Average Joe's religion: Is the adventuring population representative of the general population's religious preferences? If I'm a commoner in a random village, do I worship a single diety of personal choice? a diety favored by the town or region? A few related dieties? Or do I just utter prayers to whoever is convenient at the time?

Commoners would utter prayers to whoever is convenient at the time. So ask for a little luck form Deliar, ask for Ilsare's blessing for a wedding, make an offer to Vorax if somebody's son goes out to war, that sort of thing.
They'd probably have a favorite deity, like farmers who'd pray to Prunilla almost daily, or smiths and Dorand, but they'd still utter short prayers to other deities if the 'need' arises.

What about ceremonies/rituals? Do I attend a temple on a regular basis? if so, how often?

Thanks in advance for any answers or insight

For their favorite deities, like farmers and Prunilla, they'd be there for the holy days/festival days definitely. And maybe even weekly, but certainly not for every deity.

Hope that helps!

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

Is this basic idea of the income of a peasant/commoner still roughly accurate? If so, how would your average Commoner buy an apple, if he only got his hands on about six True a month?

[Dorganath]

Is this basic idea of the income of a peasant/commoner still roughly accurate? If so, how would your average Commoner buy an apple, if he only got his hands on about six True a month?

The real question is:  Why do adventurers charge so much for a single apple?

There's a HUGE problem in trying to represent a realistic medieval-style world with only a single currency (i.e. the Gold Piece/True) in-game. There's also the problem of representing a mechanical world with artificially-limited resources. This is how we end up with apples only growing in 3-4 places in the entire world and only in stands of 4-6 trees that only give 1-2 pieces of fruit at a time.

We could say the same thing about eggs, and then ask the question if a rather common farmer could afford even a few chickens, the going price of eggs would pretty much ensure the end of poverty to said farmer in a relatively short period of time.  Clearly, this wouldn't be the case at all.

So while the peasant/commoner/noble economy given by Ed above is a rather accurate and realistic one, the adventurer's mechanical economy is not.  The three major contributors to this rather profound disconnect is 1) the virtually limited supply of True, 2) the mechanical existance of only a single denomination of currency and 3) a rather skewed perception of value for common things.

Now...having said all that, in a setting such as ours, fresh fruit is generally a luxury item among commoners and especially so among peasants.  The odds that a commoner would be able to purchase things like apples on a regular basis is relatively slim, and it it far more likely that the same commoner would find the fruit growing wild and pick some for himself.

[lonnarin]

Now...having said all that, in a setting such as ours, fresh fruit is generally a luxury item among commoners and especially so among peasants.  The odds that a commoner would be able to purchase things like apples on a regular basis is relatively slim, and it it far more likely that the same commoner would find the fruit growing wild and pick some for himself.

Very true.  Heck, before decent refrigeration in the early 1900s and canning technology, perishables rarely made it from one side of the country to another before spoiling.  Even in modern times, you can really taste a difference in Florida Orange juice here and if you bought the same brand in Canada which is about 2 weeks older from the transportation.  The only thing that really stored well for the seasons in the dark ages was grain and flour.  Meat and eggs had to be prepared within days off the farm else they'd spoil.  With this technology, salting is about the only method of preservative the peasants could afford.

So if you ever want to wow a hot farmer's daughter, get her a fruit basket and blueberry pie.  She'll think you're a noble or something.

There's this awesome Medieval sim game called "The Guild 2" where all the peasants could afford is barley grog, oatmeal and bread.  Fancy things like cakes, wheat beers, weapons, written poetry, perfume and even cheese toast only get sold if some rich nobles are around.  In fact, the people almost have an unhealthy obsession with cheese toast... you can give some to a feuding house and the patriarch will call a truce it's so good.

[Falonthas]

i did read about a hak used to give all the other coins as well
copper silver platinum etc

so maybe we could check that out and help fix the economy some

[Dorganath]

i did read about a hak used to give all the other coins as well
copper silver platinum etc

so maybe we could check that out and help fix the economy some

No way this is happening for NWN, sorry.  That would be a major effort that we simply don't have time to pursue.  Add to that, we'd probably have to flush the whole economy as it is and start fresh, since it's so terribly skewed at the moment.

[Doc-Holiday]

As I understand it, the peasant community and the adventuring community are removed from each other in most aspects. Touching in places where they can profit, Inns, taverns, so on so forth. It would be more common for a peasant or commoner to spend the night in a ditch or field than pay for an Innroom.. or even more likely that they would seek hospitality from another peasant or commoner.

Adventurers sell to other adventurers.. or to wealthy merchants who can use their goods... their economy would be very diffrent from the economy of merchant to peasant.. or even the rare incident of Adventurer to peasant/commoner.

Adventurers tend to live better and eat better with a disproportionate amount of danger and chance of death.

Commoners and Peasants live mundane and relativly safe and predicatable lives with a much much lower return in the area of housing and food, but they can be more assured that they will be alive tomorrow.

As for Lonnarians comment "..So if you ever want to wow a hot farmer's daughter.."

unless the farmer is on fire... I would be more concerned that his daughter was hot

[miltonyorkcastle]

Is... is that you, Doc?

Good to see ya!

[Pseudonym]

I was reminded of this thread the other night as I was GMing an encounter with a PC and she was making a gather information check and I asked of her the question, "How much coin are you willing to spread?"

It prompted the thought train of what is reasonable? As a GM, you kinda want it to hurt the PC's pocket ..  just a little. You know, make it be an 'investment' into whatever plot you're weaving. Then again, it can't be plain ridiculous. To a peasant that earns 24 true a year .. even a few true is a huge amount, right? It's like someone walking up to us in the street, showing us a photo and asking if we have seen this man .. you scratch your head .. and are suddenly offered $5,000 like it is pocket change to remember? (which it would be!)

How much is reasonable? It got me thinking ... which lead back to this thread (via a roundabout kinda route).

You know, I generally don't feel the need to impose or insist on real life parallels within my gaming but I confess I have always had a pet hate (apart from people spelling deity as diety, ggrrr). I definitely had a perception of an unreasonable disparity between the economy of adventurers and that of the rest of the world, ie the NPCs, addressed (to my mind only in part) by Ed and Dorg above.

Adventurers pay 'X' and everyone else pays 1/10th of 'X' or just goes without? Come on I thought to myself.

However, recently I was lucky enough to go on holidays to Cambodia and saw, guess what? Exactly this in operation. There exist two economies side by side (as I think lonn says above). I could walk up to a stallholder and ask the price of something and I would receive a quote literally ten times that of a local. Sometimes this difference is subtle and other times it is as plain as day. The Angkor National Museum has a sign at the entrance - Admission: Local $2, Tourist $15 .. no explanation, it's just the way it is.

Sometimes there is a crossover between the two economies but it is far rarer than you might imagine.

Anyways, what was my point? *thinks a moment* Here it is. What a peasant earns and pays, what a wealthy commoner earns and pays is, by and large, irrelevant to what you as a PC (tourist) earn and pay. It's not logical and you think at some point it would break down as a person in either the tourist or the local camp tries to profit by meeting the other halfway .. but, again, not nearly as often as you'd think. Both in Layo and many places in the the real world, it's just how it is.

[Script Wrecked]

...but I confess I have always had a pet hate (apart from people spelling deity as diety, ggrrr).

Sorry...

[Pseudonym]

It's not just you my friend. I just did a search for 'diety' to post a few links to other examples so as to dilute your shame. The search maxed out on 500 matches.

So long as you never make reference to a particular 'tenant' of a diety's dogma ... we can remain civil.

[Gulnyr]

I was considering Pseudonym's parallel economies example above as a potential area where RP and social skills and bonuses can have a meaningful impact.  For example, knowledge of the area (a lore-type skill) can help a character blend in and seem local to avoid the 'tourist' prices; disguise- and acting-type skills can make it more convincing, since a Port Hempstead accent won't pass for local in Western Gate and that fancy-pants armor or magical robe isn't going to make a character look poor.  Reputation and fame can affect sellers' opinions of what to charge, for better or worse; Jennara may be recognized as an adventurer and charged extra (since adventurers are known to swim in pools of gold coins *rolls eyes*) or recognized on Corsain as Jennara and offered a discount.  That sort of thing, built and supported better than anyone ever has before so the skills are worth the investment.

[darkstorme]

The adventurer-based economy at work.