Druids and Bullets

[Grahm]

As I understand, druids are allowed to use slings as ranged weapons, but the only bullets I see available are made of copper. Do these copper bullets count as an infraction of our code?

[ycleption]

She doesn't use her sling often, but when she does she, my druid RPs them as stones.

Druids may use any ranged weapon that is not refined or that does not use objects that may harm the connection with nature. Such objects may include pulleys, or metal. Acceptable ranged weapons at this time are slings, shortbows, or longbows.

Since there aren't easily available non-metal bullets, this implies to me it's allowed. Elven druids use metal tipped arrows...

Really though, I think you'll find you won't use distance weapons terribly often after early levels, since electrocuting, burning, or freezing your enemies is much more fun.

[Black Cat]

Really though, I think you'll find you won't use distance weapons terribly often after early levels, since electrocuting, burning, or freezing your enemies is much more fun.

You forgot.. gnawing, biting and clawing

[miltonyorkcastle]

Druids have always been "allowed" to use small bits of metal. The major issue is that druids would not be chucking around in platemail or wielding double-axes. Metal is natural, too, even if it doesn't come from something that grows (like wooden weapons or leather armors).

[Hellblazer]

Metal is natural, too, even

that has always been my belief, and why I always found it odd, for some of  them to shun metal to the highest point.

[Eight-Bit]

that has always been my belief, and why I always found it odd, for some of  them to shun metal to the highest point.

The one's that shun them should take a look at their hands and around their necks. Heck, even cut gemstones is another thing against them.

[miasma_hemlock]

Druids can also wear studded leather armor, which has metal.  And jewelry of course.  And they can wield scimitars, and daggers...   Metal isn't druid kryptonite, they just have restrictions about its use.  

It seems like some people have the idea that any contact with metal is taboo for druids.  It's not...  But they can't use metal armor that has been heavily forged and processed, and no metal weapons unless they've been consecrated in a certain way.  

It's a little like how most many day Green types will only wear organic, sweatshop-free clothes and if they eat meat or wear leather it has to have been a free range animal.  Kind of.

[Dorganath]

Actually the key is "refined" metal, not metal itself.

There are a few ritualistic "weapons" which are metal and permitted for druids.  There's also the limits of NWN and our own crafting diversity, so some concessions need to be made.  So anyway...

A druid can carry a dagger, which is typically metal.  Sickles can be made with a stone blade, but not in-game.  If the druidic metal allergy kicks in, the RP can be as such, but there's no mechanical representation.  Bullets...think of them as un-refined metal ore, or just rocks...whatever fits. Scimitars...if we had Ironwood, they'd be made from that.  This is a traditionally druidic weapon but it is also a refined metal thing as far as the in-game representation goes.  Consider it an "allowance".

[lonnarin]

*Grovel stares really really hard at his uncurvy iron dagger wondering why it is more holy than the longsword, and just decides that his druidic superiors are insane*

"When Grovel is Hierophant, everybody use dungplate armors or loin cloths and throw badgers at people!  For nature, by nature; no more of this "oh well the sword is uncurvy so its bad, but the uncurvy dagger is good and the scimitar is curvy so don't wear metal armors, protect nature and cut down trees and slay animals for all we use and wear even though at least the rocks don't scream in a language we understand when we harvest them, stuff"

On that note, will these restrictions (no metal armor, every other metal weapon) carry over into the next version of Layo where there's no longer a druid "class" persay?  With a skill-based system, will certain code-based classes now become more occupational in nature, rather than mechanical, where the titles of "druid" and "paladin" are bestowed by the hierarchies?

Also, will robes finally get the loving that they deserve in the next incarnation?  From a strictly mechanical standpoint in NWN, robes are suicide for armor class, and only people forced to wear lighter in order to use their magic really have any benefit to using them.  For classes like druids, the whole armor and gear issue becomes incredibly vexing, since there's only a socio-political reason not to wear fullplate.  In truth, metal doesn't beg for mercy when you mine it, and it does not involve killing a tree to get it.  If any vegetarian idealist with natural preservation in mind, to not use metal is a sin by virtue of plain logic.  The main reason that they do is because those above them in the pyramid tell them to do so.

If however, in the next incarnation of Layo one could raise their armor class on a sliding scale of expertise so that wearing robes or light leathers you could feasibly toe to toe with a platemail specialist without the prerequisite 30+ epic dex score, then you would see more classic robed druids with gnarled staves and stone sickles running around.  The Majority of Aragenite, Aeridenite and Lucindite clergy would finally start obeying their dress codes!  But, will a druid still be a "druid" if he ran around in platemail and a greatsword casting nature-based magic and defending the oak, or would he be more of a splinter-sect loony from outside the druidic circles?  And what's to keep he and his heavy plated, nature protecting brethren from creating their OWN social order akin to the druid network?

[Acacea]

To be fair, it has been repeatedly stated that it is not a political mandate of any sort for druids to not wear metal armors and the like. Neither Rhizome nor the previous hierophant are the thought police of the druidic order, nor were they the law instituting masterminds behind a bureaucratic policy mire (despite all the political OOC baggage that is really a drag on the whole druid class). The reason that has been given - I am not restating it to support or attack the logic of it - is that it actively interferes with one's actual connection to the natural world. Ed himself has stated a heavy dislike for the whole silly scimitar thing, and Dorg said above that they should be made of something else but aren't.

So if anything, the metal issue is not a case of "stupid druid laws" (if there are oaths, it seems reasonable to assume that they are made because of that interference) but rather an inability to enforce consequences of wearing it. If these reasons hold true in concept in the next version, I would expect instead to see something much like arcane spell failure or skill decrease or something for large quantities of metal, rather than an OOC rule preventing it from being worn at all - that's basically what it is IC, except since there are no consequences for being weird it's just not done instead. I'm sure if we instituted "nature penalties" for heavy metal armors to comply with the reasons we have been given for the ruling, the OOC ban on them would be lifted... if you want to cripple your senses of the natural world, it is of course your decision, in that case.

Again, the post is not made to argue the bullet proof logic of the reasons we have been given, only to disagree with the previous post because the arguments are not really valid in that light.

(Edit - in addition, and as another reason that has been given in the past for the actual oaths that go with whatever funky nature vibes occur, the processing for metals is more involved and damaging through its various stages than those of more "natural" materials, even if all come from nature... the mines, the forging and smelting, the roads, etc.)

[lonnarin]

Once we are no longer D&D in any shape or form, will we carry over the old D&D rule?  Once the magic system have gone through a huge skillset overhaul, will there still be "druids" by virtue of social membership, prerequisite skill combos or membership upon what basis?  I'm not going to argue the validity of druidic oaths themselves, because iconoclastic metallurgic theology cannot be argued, I'm just asking how the game mechanics will change in the next incarnation.  Will spellgrowing have a dress code pre-requisite?

[Dorganath]

There is much about your question that cannot be answered at this moment for several reasons, not the least of which is that definitions such as these are still in flux.

However, I will say, generically, that there will be skills (and Spellgrowing is a skill) which cannot be used unless certain conditions are met, and said conditions may include not having something equipped.  Again though, this is all in flux at the moment, so I'm not going to be able to give concrete examples.

However...I will say, D&D rules aside, that to me, it simply does not make any sense for someone to use Spellgrowing skills in full plate armor. While our skill system will allow for extreme flexibility, people should understand that it doesn't mean there won't be trade-offs.  

But this is getting off-topic. Questions about the new game should be discussed in the MMO sub-forum.