Dark Elves

[Link092]

... Lets gather up these threads and sticky them neatly together, so Stephen doesn't have to go make a post for it every six months....

[Alatriel]

Just to consider the outside of the coin, I think one of the motivating factors for preemptive peeking is that no-one likes to be duped, hood-winked, and/or have the-wool-pulled-over-their-eyes, in Real Life, or in-game.

[INDENT]"What, there was a dark-elf next to you all that time and you didn't even notice?" *incredulous*[/INDENT]

Well, I don't think there is any getting around that. However, no-one really thinks you're a dummy (or your character). Everyone knows that this character is really a dark-elf/goblin/other-undesirable-race. Heck, they've probably chosen a portrait and/or soundset to that effect. So, you know they're what they are, and they know that you know, and you know what, they know that you know and (probably) appreciate that you aren't meta-ing their character.

To me, it is a small price to pay to facilitate their story, to enable their fun. That's what's it's all about, isn't it? It is your gift to them, and to the greater roleplay on this server.

And just think, (as and) when their character is finally revealed, your character gets to do outrage like they're going for an Oscar.

Regards,

Script Wrecked.

Hmm... that's exactly what happened to Alatriel and Aerimor with Iradril...

[EdTheKet]

Also I think there is more tolerance in dark elf since there is one that is high standing in the world of Layo and often sitting uncovered out on the benches of Hempstead. Nothing against the character or the player.

Please see one of my first posts in this thread:


Oh, and "Surely there's lots of good dark elves" is not true. There are MILLIONS of evil dark elves and people know it. They've conducted tons of raids and sieges over the centuries, their religion tells them to rule over all, so a handfull of Az'attans and some adventurers are not going to change the general populace's opinion.

But if one can prove themselves to be worthy shouldn't others be able to prove themselves.

No, because people don't want to run the risk. Too many times have they been hurt/betrayed/killed/etc.

If all dark elves should be killed on sight.. What if someone that has never been to Hempstead before walks in and sees that dark elf standing say in Hempstead fields and they try to kill her.. what would happen?

We'd have a fight, and probably a good part of the city would join in anyway. She may be allowed into the city, but that does not mean everyone is happy about that or cares about her well-being.

[miltonyorkcastle]

What Ed said. There's a reason why those who are "accepted" often still choose to cover up.

[Dorganath]

NO. NO NO NO a thousand times NO. With respect to Alantha, I really feel that that character should never be in Hempstead with exposed skin, unless she felt like inciting a riot. Because that is what would happen. I don't care how powerful or well-known a given Dark Elf is - Joe Commoner knows for a fact (and a well-informed fact, at that) that Dark Elves are EVIL. He doesn't care what it's name is, how shapely it may be, and so forth... It's a Dark Elf, and it's going to kill him and his family. He is going to run away, screaming - all the more, if he knows that that Dark Elf is so powerful, she's invented her own spells. This is PRECISELY why there are laws against monstrous races entering the city, for all that the city's governance knows that there may be one or two individuals who aren't blackhearted murderers who will eat your children and animate their bones.



No. I don't care how Epic Alantha (or any other well-known "goodie" Dark Elf) is, not a single one has truly proven him or herself "worthy" in the eyes of Joe Commoner - because Dark Elves are monsters.

Actually, that's not entirely true.  Those dark elves who are allowed, and especially Alantha, have more than proven themselves, not only to the authorities of Port Hempstead but also just from day-to-day exposure.  Their original allowance was due to years of fighting for the "good guys" during the war with Bloodstone.  Undoubtedly there are stories and songs about Alantha and her deeds.  All the children born in the last 30 or so years (and maybe longer) would probably have seen her around town daily, accepted by prominent people and think "Well, maybe she's not so bad."

It really has nothing to do with her epic-ness. It has to do with what she has done.

[Lynn1020]

Actually, that's not entirely true.  Those dark elves who are allowed, and especially Alantha, have more than proven themselves, not only to the authorities of Port Hempstead but also just from day-to-day exposure.  Their original allowance was due to years of fighting for the "good guys" during the war with Bloodstone.  Undoubtedly there are stories and songs about Alantha and her deeds.  All the children born in the last 30 or so years (and maybe longer) would probably have seen her around town daily, accepted by prominent people and think "Well, maybe she's not so bad."

It really has nothing to do with her epic-ness. It has to do with what she has done.

Well that goes back to what I said.. if you have been raised with hearing the stories of the good one dark elf did.. would it affect the way you may treat other ones you come across?

[Weeblie]

This might not be the greatest example, but it's a little bit difficult to find these sort of real life extremes.

If your friend has a snake for pet and you are well aware of that it's all cuddly and nice, would that also make you go and hug a random snake found in the forest?

Unless one starts to see a much larger pattern, exceptions do tend to remain as exceptions in one's mind. More of a "I no longer see him/her as a dark elf" rather than "I no longer see dark elves as evil".

Do also remember that even the most "successful" good dark elves are on tops just accepted by the general population. Had their deeds been the same while their heritage were different... well... they would likely have ended up as the hero-magazine-front-page-boy/girl instead!

[Hellblazer]

I guess it also depends on how some char were raised.
 
 Taking the In'Darsus kids for example. Because Rain and Sonya had a few Dark elves friends (atcually traveled with, prooved themselves, saved Rain and Sonya's life a few times) they have taught their children to try and see the good in people first.
 
 I imagine that in a world as big as Layo, this wouldn't be the only time this is done. Sure they would know that the vast majority of dark elves are evil, even more so if they didn't leave their own and are bent on attacking towns and such. But they would probably see differently those that did, and try to show they are different. At least until they prove the contrary.

[Dorganath]

Well that goes back to what I said.. if you have been raised with hearing the stories of the good one dark elf did.. would it affect the way you may treat other ones you come across?

 
 No, not necessarily. Not with just one.  I can see a conversation like this happening between a father and his son (for example):
 
 [INDENT] "Mind the dark elves, son.  Their kind be trouble and lots of it.  They'd kill ya for no reason and keep walkin'.  Don' trust 'em, I say.  Don' even go near 'em...or look at 'em.  There's but one I knows of that's got even a speck of good in 'er. I don' trust her one bit, but leastways she ain' gonna stab ya in the back neither."
[/INDENT]  
 So tales of one dark elf being good and honored and all isn't going to way general opinion, especially when compared against the tales of massive assaults by dark elves and the like.  Those stories would serve more as an "exception to the rule" than the start of a trend.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

"Epic-ness" was meant in the old-fashioned ECDQ way - epic in the traditional sense of the word, not having to do with level but with renown.

However, there is one thing. I'd place very good money that Joe Commoner could look at Alantha and some other pretty Dark Elf Woman, and have no idea which one was which... Until one of them tried to kill him.

In a city of thousands and thousands (maybe millions?), and a huge non-permanent population of sailors, merchants, and travelers, I have to wonder how, exactly (and we're just running with the pertinent example), Alantha's face would become known to most folks. The majority of the population can't read, can't afford newspapers, and the newspaper the world DOES have, doesn't have photographs. Skillful illustrations, perhaps, but mass-produced by hand?

How are these people going to have any way to recognize an individual they don't actively interact with on a regular basis?

Being a daily sight would be "There's one dark elf in this crowd" not "There's one Alantha in this crowd," unless she was literally treated like nobility.

If she is, awesome. Perhaps the playerbase should see more of that in RP and fluff, but okay. If not, though, I still have concerns for the points I've brought up.

Joe Commoner will look and see "Dark Elf." Heck, Joe Commoner probably looks at Karn or Jilesponie and sees "Elf."

[EdTheKet]

Taking the In'Darsus kids for example. Because Rain and Sonya had a few Dark elves friends (atcually traveled with, prooved themselves, saved Rain and Sonya's life a few times) they have taught their children to try and see the good in people first.

If they teach it like that, they are irresponsible in my opinion, as chances are far more likely that it is not a good one. But that is their choice, but they shouldn't be surprised their kid gets killed by a dark elf.


So, instead of repeating myself continuously, please be aware that this is not a debatable status of the world, this is fact:
Oh, and "Surely there's lots of good dark elves" is not true. There are MILLIONS of evil dark elves and people know it. They've conducted tons of raids and sieges over the centuries, their religion tells them to rule over all, so a handfull of Az'attans and some adventurers are not going to change the general populace's opinion.


Let me reverse the question. Why are a lot of you so bent on finding reasons for why you can treat all dark elf player characters like they are good? In fact, most people are then inconsistent, because the moment they encounter a dark elf on a GM run quest, they will almost certainly not give that dark elf the benefit of the doubt. The red floaty text (if the GM forgot to set the faction to Common), or the mere fact the NPC is GM controlled, will very often lead to the right reaction: not trusting the dark elf NPC, not even as far as you can throw him/her.

Explain me that inconsistency then.

[lonnarin]

It's probably due to the mechanical limitation of making sure that every playable dark elf must be slightly lawful or slightly good. Open up CE and I'll make ye a dark elf's dark elf...  This is why everybody thinks they're CN-CG, or evil but with enough law to not go back on their word in a business deal.

Though the halfogre has it worse.  MUST be CN or CG if Azattan, nothing else.  You could drop off a baby halfogre on the steps of a Toranite church, raise him with the utmost discipline and training, and not a single word of law will stick in his mind.  Conversely, you could beat him within an inch of his life every day, slaughter his parents in front of him, stone him, make him hate all humanity, and if he ever got angry and evil-like... he would run off into the woods never to be seen again because he can't be any kind of evil except for the impermissible kind.  Not a single non-chaotic halfogre exists; Law is poison to them.  Should they look both ways before crossing the street or salute a townguard their heads would explode into a messy pinata of goo and brain-noodles.

Now if only one could make an evil brownie... THAT would scare the bejeebus outta me!  Using a needle as a rapier, snapping every vein and ligament along the way, crawling up and down some poor bloke's body.  Their last vision before death would be Rool and Franjeen, plucking out their eyes.  "Death to the Nelwyn!"

I understand why we don't allow CE though... PVP anxiety.  But I might point out that it was a rule written prior to the PVP widget, and the recent attempts to make races more attuned to their natural alignment.  The latter seems to suffer a bit when one disallows the natural alignment, and only allows one-step diversion from it.  Until there are CE dark elf player characters allowed, everybody will always see a PC and think "oh, well at least he's obviously more lawful or good than his kin".  That's just how it is.

And yes Ed, the red-aura is a funny thing.  I remember when I would spawn a little child walking through the forest, switch his faction to red, and sit back laughing when he'd get blown up by a mage's fireball a screen away!  "but but... it was an EVIL little boy!"  And then another GM would put a huge arch-devil in the middle of Hlint, turned him blue and everybody but Praylor insisted on... talking... to it, and helping it in its quest.  Remember folks, you cannot see intent from the game engine alone!

[Hellblazer]

Let me reverse the question. Why are a lot of you so bent on finding reasons for why you can treat all dark elf player characters like they are good?

 
 No they didn't raise them to view all of them as possible do-gooder. But more in the way that all should be able to have a chance. remember that when i started the Angels, that was the main part in it. To help all the people and bring hope, to give all adventurers the good they needed to survive at a fair price.
 
 in no way would Rain and Sonya have raised their children to be stupid, but to have an open mind. Some of my chars are more open minded than others, but if you take Eslar, he's not and it was portraid as is in a quest ran by minerva. And yes, he was given the eyes by the people when he was fretting about iradril, when he learned he was a dark elf.
 
 It depends on the mentality of my chars for me.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

An open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded.

Also.

... Lets gather up these threads and sticky them neatly together, so Stephen doesn't have to go make a post for it every six months....

This is a great idea.

Yes, I'm joking. Laugh.

[Interia_Discordius]

Let me reverse the question. Why are a lot of you so bent on finding reasons for why you can treat all dark elf player characters like they are good?

If you try to play without trusting the majority of the people who walk up to you and say hi, you're considered moody, broody, or otherwise dark as a character, so you have the pressure to be fluffy pleasant- Probably because we -know- that everyone is good or neutral aligned. There is the constant pressure to be nice to our fellow PCs because they are real people. This conflicts with roleplay.

On the other hand, from the player from those unaccepted races themselves: In character submissions, we post that we accept our status as the race we play and show that in our biographies, but when the person is treated as they should be in the game, you often hear complaints through Tells from them saying how mean people are.

So... Instead of acting suspicious, we're basically forced out of our own concern for our fellow players to give those dark elves the benefit of the doubt. . . Nevermind the fact it's completely OOC.

When the DM comes along, then, and spawns a nasty dark elf who we know can play CE and who we know won't be offended if we're mean... well, there you go.

I call it the OOC syndrome.

[Alatriel]

But that's just it.  We DON'T know that everyone is good or neutral aligned.

[Interia_Discordius]

I'd agree... but you know via submissions and you know via alignment rules. There's that OOC aspect right there for you.

[Alatriel]

Yes, but once again, not everyone is good or neutral aligned.  We do have evil pc's

[lonnarin]

Another thing too, one cannot kill-on-sight anything other than a demon or undead and maintain a good alignment.  If we do that on quests to the NPCs we meet, we get chaos and evil points.  And nobody wants to be chaotic evil, because then they're unplayable.  So it's a case of damned if you do, damned if you don't.  If you play a CN character and come across a talking dark elf, even if you have the right alignment to kill them, you can't, because there's that ever-looming threat that your character will be taken away if you act properly to how we urge you to act towards dark elves.

In a recent dispute, one dark elf player Iradril was given evil points for not showing a sad expression when a *chaotic eeeeevil dark elf npc who whipped Alantha multiple times and tried to stab her* died and he did not heal that *eeeevil evil dark evil elf* after Abigail rightfully stopped her via rapier to the heart.  While we have been told again and again that kill-on-sight or chase-them-out-of-town is how we *should* react to dark elves, in practice, at least one player has gotten evil points simply for not feeling bad about an evil stereotypical OPENLY HOSTILE dark elf getting killed in self-defense... when he wasn't even the one who did it too!  SO maybe the reason we don't treat dark elves with the proper fear and loathing is that because we penalize our players for it when they do.

In my opinion, leaving the dark elf to die on her own with a chance of stabilizing naturally like they did would be a good point.  Finishing the job would be neutral.  The only way you could get evil points in that situation would be if you snapped and cannibalized the body, cackling and smearing blood on your face like warpaint.  That's what other dark elves would do.

[Hellblazer]

On the other hand, from the player from those unaccepted races themselves: In character submissions, we post that we accept our status as the race we play and show that in our biographies, but when the person is treated as they should be in the game, you often hear complaints through Tells from them saying how mean people are.
 

 
 Eh you won't hear me complain about that. I actually am waiting for the people to be really entrenched against Fehriel, but for now the only time that has happened was with Balthazar, and I had a great time rping Feh vs Bal. What I don't like is what I posted before, metagaming based on his race. That can happen though and sometime you just got to let it slide when it's minor, but when it'S not that's when you have to speak out about it.
 
 An other thing to be careful about, for clerics and paladins is the ''sense evilness from the pc'' If a Tiefling and a Aasimar can not feel their opposite, I am pretty sure that a cleric or paladin wouldn't feel the evilness out of a single person. Their prayer might guide them to know that they do not follow a god that is well seen from their own god, but unless I am mistaken, they wouldn't sense the evilness out of a pc (that is subjective to a GM being present and sking for them to make a roll for it, there for left at the discretion of the gm). Cause well if they do, then i can actually see a war breweing within the rofirienite clergy where the settigns are from LG to LE. Which of course would be quite fun to watch.
 
 Which Also brings up the question. Why would a rofi juge rule that an Evil race should be put to death or even emprisoned, when their own god allows evil aligned character to be Clerics? Wouldn't that come into conflict with their own beliefs? If he doesn't break the law (which I must say for Sion I am unsure of what trully happened in the first place) then why would they even get involved based on the person being evil or from a race that is considered evil for their ways, or because by the very blood they carry?
 
 

at least one player has gotten evil points simply for not feeling bad about an evil stereotypical dark elf getting killed in self-defense... when he wasn't even the one who did it too! SO maybe the reason we don't treat dark elves with the proper fear and loathing is that because we penalize our players for it when they do.

 
 the whole party but abigail and Jilesponie got the neutral point.