Dark Elves

[Weeblie]

And at least one person has taken something out of context and exaggerated the said act too. Have we not been taught that standing by and laughing at the misfortunes of a slowly dying man is not really an act of good? So maybe the reason of whether someone will be "punished" for it or not does not lay in whether he or she is actually killing dark elves. For else, surely all high level characters must have turned to a chaotic evil alignment already?

Oh... make it two people, by the way!

[Interia_Discordius]

I got what I needed... can we lock the thread? Is that allowed to be requested?

[Drizzlin]

Mmm... off note, dark elves are usually NE than CE. They do have to work together to some extent, after all.

Not at all. Dark elves breed chaos. They are far more CE.

[lonnarin]

I got what I needed... can we lock the thread? Is that allowed to be requested?

Seconded.  At least one person has requested this, and now make it two.

[Drizzlin]

Yes, but once you've been burned by a dark elf, any time you see somoene of elven build covered completely from head to toe... there's all the suspicion you need.  Generally elves don't do that.

There is a point though that seems to always be missed. Dark elves on the surface are so rare that people should never think "oh look maybe that is a Dark elf".

It is like when I go to my friends house at the Tangelo Trailer Park Hood and he has a painting on the wall. The VERY last thing I think to ask him is, "hey is that a Picasso?". Why? Because the chances of it being one are near impossible. You do not see Picasso paintings hanging on the walls of trailers. You do not see dark elves on the surface. You do not see bats flying around during the day. I don't walk around thinking I am going to find, or even looking for a million dollars hanging from trees. I suppose bag of money could always fall out of a plane and land in the tree in my back yard...

Now the flip side to this is if the DMs start running quests with dark elves raiding the surface at certain areas. That could cause some caution and the locals on the look out for a period of time.

[Drizzlin]

Actually, that's not entirely true.  Those dark elves who are allowed, and especially Alantha, have more than proven themselves, not only to the authorities of Port Hempstead but also just from day-to-day exposure.  Their original allowance was due to years of fighting for the "good guys" during the war with Bloodstone.  Undoubtedly there are stories and songs about Alantha and her deeds.  All the children born in the last 30 or so years (and maybe longer) would probably have seen her around town daily, accepted by prominent people and think "Well, maybe she's not so bad."

It really has nothing to do with her epic-ness. It has to do with what she has done.

What bothers me about this, is no matter how many lives Drizzt saved or how many good deeds he did, he was never accepted by anyone other than his friends. He didn't walk into large cities and towns open as a dark elf, because they would riot and try to kill him and his friends.

A demon shouldn't be allowed to walk the streets of a city...and there if there is one thing even a demon fears, it is a dark elf priest.

[Drizzlin]

No, not necessarily. Not with just one.  I can see a conversation like this happening between a father and his son (for example):
 
 [INDENT] "Mind the dark elves, son.  Their kind be trouble and lots of it.  They'd kill ya for no reason and keep walkin'.  Don' trust 'em, I say.  Don' even go near 'em...or look at 'em.  There's but one I knows of that's got even a speck of good in 'er. I don' trust her one bit, but leastways she ain' gonna stab ya in the back neither."
[/INDENT]  
 So tales of one dark elf being good and honored and all isn't going to way general opinion, especially when compared against the tales of massive assaults by dark elves and the like.  Those stories would serve more as an "exception to the rule" than the start of a trend.

I would add the son saying, "but dad, I can't tell one from the other, they all look alike to me with their dark skin, the scary red eyes...How do I know which one is this good one?"

Then the dad would say "good point son, that is why we don't risk the chance with the one good one. It is better to be safe and treat them all the same. Son if you don't know which snakes are the poisons ones and which aren't, it is better to just stay clear of all of them."

[geloooo]

Wow, Iradril was a Dark Elf? Kudos to him, I didn't know that :p See, the plot will be better if people slowed down on the spot checks. It's boring if everyone immediately knows you're a Dark Elf and then they get their torches and pitch forks. The fact of the matter is, slow down with the spot checks, allow the pc to show his/her true nature and if you get suspicious of his/her actions, knock yourself out. Right?

[Dorganath]

What bothers me about this, is no matter how many lives Drizzt saved or how many good deeds he did, he was never accepted by anyone other than his friends. He didn't walk into large cities and towns open as a dark elf, because they would riot and try to kill him and his friends.

A demon shouldn't be allowed to walk the streets of a city...and there if there is one thing even a demon fears, it is a dark elf priest.

Drizzt never had a city (i.e. those in authority) proclaim him as "a good fellow".

[Dorganath]

I would add the son saying, "but dad, I can't tell one from the other, they all look alike to me with their dark skin, the scary red eyes...How do I know which one is this good one?"

Then the dad would say "good point son, that is why we don't risk the chance with the one good one. It is better to be safe and treat them all the same. Son if you don't know which snakes are the poisons ones and which aren't, it is better to just stay clear of all of them."

You've actually proved my point, which was stories about one good dark elf does not start a trend of holding hands with every dark elf people see.

[Aerimor]

Ok fine, I will put my two cents in.

This is really easy, and people are complicating it.

Dark Elves are evil.  If you are weak, flee evil.  If you are strong kill evil.

"What about good Dark Elves?" There are none. Dark Elves are evil.

"What about Alantha and Irdaril?" They are Alantha and Iradril.  They still cause evil things to occure.  Their presence causes confusion, fear and hostility in town. Lord Rael uses them for propaganda.  Hempstead has merely decreed there past heroic actions to outway the troubles their presence now causes.  Even these heroic dark elves cause chaos, and allow evil to spread.  It is their fault? Most likely not (unless they choose to unveil themselves without regards to the effects it has) but because of their race and that alone they still cause such effects.  And they are the exceptions.  They are in no way representative of Dark Elves.

"What about the neutral and and lesser known Dark Elves?" They are evil.  There is no one to stick up for them, they have done no Heoric deeds of legend.  Therefore they have all of the draw back without any of the saving graces.  Therefore the scales are set against them, period.  They have to prove themselves 1000 times over to be as accepted as a human.  That is life.  That is Xenophonbia.  That is the Dark Elves history.  That is what is means to be or play a Dark Elf.


Ask a Japanese American what it felt like to be put in a camp during World War II.  Ask one that was fighting in the European theater for the Allies while their family was locked away in a camp in the US.  When that "Hero" came back from the war, ask him if he was accepted in his own nation.  Heck ask a Middle Eastern decent American who fought for his country if he was accepted in the last half dozen years. Or if he was detained in the airports, treated with suspicion and worse based soley on his skin color.

Now take that and mulitply that by *shrugs* 1000? for dark Elves?  They are monsters, not people with differant skin color.  The stories of them are things of nightmares.  Add to that that Layonorians do not see Dark Elves while Americans do see Middle Eastern desent people.  Now add that Dark Elves are evil, they live to torment and kill.  While humans, all races are good people and non hostile.  Only a minority is evil, cruel, or war like. This is juxtaposed with Dark Elves.  If one in a 100,000 can make a nation hostile, unaccepting or suspicious of a race imagine what happens when the race only has one in a million that is good or just.



Adventuers are Adventuers.  They are the exceptions to every rule.  They break all conformities.  They do not represent the mass of people even in a fantasy world.  They are the Ghandi's, Churchills, Hitlers, and so forth.  Because they have a vision to see a world of the future or a world apart from how it is in fact, does not mean the rest do.  It is always easier to follow than think.


So in summary, Dark Elves are evil.  All Dark Elves cause problems.  Anyone playing a Dark Elf or other monsterous race ackowledged these truths.  They choose to take on a role that requires more effort to reach the same goals.  So role play your character.  If you want to think a Lich is misunderstood and you can save his soul, your a PC go for it.  But be consistent.  Don't try to save a Lich's soul because it 'talked' and then butcher the next goblin child you see because its 'evil.'  But by the same token live with the repercusions.  If the 'good' people of the world find you consorting with a Lich do not whine or be shocked when you are branded, thrown in jail and exiled or killed.  The world does not share your PC's view that Liches can or should be reformed.  Why?  Because they are evil.

~some guy

PS: ok it was 50 cents, but keep the change =)

[Gulnyr]

Why would a rofi juge rule that an Evil race should be put to death or even emprisoned, when their own god allows evil aligned character to be Clerics?

They wouldn't do that.  Judges rule on the law.  If the courts in some place are operated by Rofireinites and the laws of that place severely restrict a certain race  and prescribe death for those offenses, then the judge has a good chance of sentencing death to a member of that race for breaking that law if the offender was tried and found guilty.  Rofireinite judges don't just decide willy-nilly that members of Evilly aligned races should be killed, period.

Wouldn't that come into conflict with their own beliefs?

It would if that's what they did, which they don't, so it doesn't.  Also, Good and Evil are not mainstream Church of Rofirein alignments, so while Good and Evil characters can be part of the Church, even reaching high ranks, their views aren't necessarily in accordance with the "typical" beliefs of the "typical" member.

If he doesn't break the law (which I must say for Sion I am unsure of what trully happened in the first place) then why would they even get involved based on the person being evil or from a race that is considered evil for their ways, or because by the very blood they carry?

The bold part seems important.  Besides that, Rofireinites believe in order, which just laws are meant to help maintain.  They also believe in protecting people.  Laws are often all about that protection - don't kill or hurt anyone and don't damage or take their things or otherwise ruin their well-being and opportunity for prosperity.  Sometimes, it's best to be proactive and try to become involved before any law is broken in order to better protect everyone.  If a race is far and away known for evil acts and sowing chaos, as is true and factual about dark elves, it would not be uncommon to see Rofireinites become involved and intervene if it seemed necessary to protect others.

[Script Wrecked]

Let me reverse the question. Why are a lot of you so bent on finding reasons for why you can treat all dark elf player characters like they are good?

Basically because, as children at kindergarten, we were all (mostly) taught to play nice in the sand pit.

No-one wants to be ostracized, and yet, this is probably the way dark-elves and other monstrous races should be treated. But we don't do this because we know there is a player on the other side of that character who wants to have fun, and the best way to have fun is to be included, so we include them.

And they want to be included, in spite of their character race choice.

Even after they are outed, we don't want to ostracize them (let alone burn them at the stake for the baby-eating murderers that they are), so we look for an excuse to keep including them, any excuse. Knowing the Drizz't storyline well, that is all the excuse that is required.

In my opinion, to play dark-elves properly and in accordance with their history, both by their player and the players they interact with, dark-elves are really unplayable, at least in the mid to long term. The number of the exceptions that have to be made to keep including them eventually collapses under its own weight.

The potential Sion outcome of being locked up forever is a natural resolution to a dark-elf character storyline, and yet people are complaining about someone being denied their character, which they would have been and is a harsh thing to have happen. And yet more exceptions would now have to be made to keep including them.

And if you're not being included, how can you play your character?

In fact, most people are then inconsistent, because the moment they encounter a dark elf on a GM run quest, they will almost certainly not give that dark elf the benefit of the doubt.The red floaty text (if the GM forgot to set the faction to Common), or the mere fact the NPC is GM controlled, will very often lead to the right reaction: not trusting the dark elf NPC, not even as far as you can throw him/her.

Explain me that inconsistency then.

The "dark elf on a GM run quest" is an NPC. :p

Regards,

Script Wrecked.

[Script Wrecked]

Besides that, Rofireinites believe in order, which just laws are meant to help maintain.

All laws are about maintaining order, but not all order is "just".

They also believe in protecting people. Laws are often all about that protection - don't kill or hurt anyone and don't damage or take their things or otherwise ruin their well-being and opportunity for prosperity.

Aren't these "good" sentiments?

Regards,

Script Wrecked.

[Hellblazer]

it's best to be proactive and try to become involved before any law is broken in order to better protect everyone.

IN that case, by that statement all Chaotic and tn char should be in jail

[Gulnyr]

All laws are about maintaining order, but not all order is "just".

Right.  There is a notion that Rofireinites should be and/or are constantly striving for a more just set of laws everywhere, since justice is a big part of the faith, too, but that's a topic for a different thread.

Aren't these "good" sentiments?

Tell it to Ed.  I've already tried.

IN that case, by that statement all Chaotic and tn char should be in jail

You cut off the "sometimes" and you're over-simplifying alignment, but that's a topic for a different thread, too.

[Hellblazer]

Nah I was just making a little friendly jab there.

[akata]

What bothers me about this, is no matter how many lives Drizzt saved or how many good deeds he did, he was never accepted by anyone other than his friends. He didn't walk into large cities and towns open as a dark elf, because they would riot and try to kill him and his friends.

A demon shouldn't be allowed to walk the streets of a city...and there if there is one thing even a demon fears, it is a dark elf priest.

Not in any way related to my view on Layonara dark elfs, but
in the later books Drizzt's walk openly in number of large cities (Waterdeep, Baldur's Gate, Silverymoon) due to his actions.

[Xiaobeibi]

If they teach it like that, they are irresponsible in my opinion, as chances are far more likely that it is not a good one. But that is their choice, but they shouldn't be surprised their kid gets killed by a dark elf.


So, instead of repeating myself continuously, please be aware that this is not a debatable status of the world, this is fact:
Oh, and "Surely there's lots of good dark elves" is not true. There are MILLIONS of evil dark elves and people know it. They've conducted tons of raids and sieges over the centuries, their religion tells them to rule over all, so a handfull of Az'attans and some adventurers are not going to change the general populace's opinion.
QUOTE]

Thank you Ed, however please do continue repeating yourself as this cant be stated enough times.


The rest is my opinion, but it shouldnt be surprising as any of you know how Galathea views and interacts with dark elves.

First rant: Dark elves
there are no helpless darkelves there are only failures; and that you dont need a reason to kill a dark elf, you need a reason not to.

If you think this is too harsh and automatically make me evil please consider the following:

For every "good" dark elf on the surface there would be far more spies, agents and sleepers. In fact most "good" darkelves would be sleepers. Asking a darkelf to kill another darkelf to prove his loyalty dont really work because they wouldnt give two cents for anothers life.

Ask how forgiving people where to Germans after the second world war or towards Japanese. Then multiply said feelings by a hundred you should have some estimation of what people should feel towards dark elves.

Would you let a serial murderer/rapist/child molester on the loose just because he said "I am changed"? or because he lost his weapon?

Remember the rituals they pass through when becoming adults? An adult dark elf who worships their gods isnt nice, isnt going to change and makes any human racist we have encountered appear as dr. King.

Divine relation doesnt say if the player is good or evil, only how your deity feels about the deity said person worships. But for some us it happens that "enemy deities" ARE evil (with one exception of CN). If I encounter a dark elf and said dark elf worships an evil god, I consider it safe to assume its an evil dark elf. Its might not be a 100% true, but unless we metagame the odds would be 99.99% of it being true. Thats good enough for me.

If it was solely up to me dark elves wouldnt be a playable race. Not because our players cant handle them playing them, but because it partially ruins their mystique and makes them appear less terrifying, less evil.

This is a familiy server, which I much appreciate, it limits what GMs and players can do when it comes to portraying dark elves. BUT, it doesnt mean that we players should remember dark elves actually do and are. Last act according to it.

Second rant:  morality
Layonara has been thorugh a devasting war, invasions, a "nuclear winter" is threathened by dragons, undead, dark elves, goblinoids and each other. Its not our safe and orderly world. Its not even our world 300 years ago.

Much of our modern liberal morality and attitudes arise from the simple fact that we havent faced the same kind of hardship and tough choises are earlier AND even those wouldnt always compare to what layonarans have gone through.

Being good doesn't mean you cant make tought choises, act decisively or even appear harsh or unforgiving. I am not arguing paladins can go around murdering babies, but being tough and even brutal does not automatically make it an evil act. Inaction or letting an evil go because it appears harmless or helpless at the moment isnt a good act. In most cases its simply an act where we havent considered the later consequences of it.

If they teach it like that, they are irresponsible in my opinion, as chances are far more likely that it is not a good one. But that is their choice, but they shouldn't be surprised their kid gets killed by a dark elf.[/I] QUOTE]

Ed puts it better in his example, but it can summed up as this. Being good doesnt mean you have to be naive or gullible.



End rant

[Cinnabar]

... exceptions do tend to remain as exceptions in one's mind. More of a "I no longer see him/her as a dark elf" rather than "I no longer see dark elves as evil"...

Dead on!