Dark Elves and the Law

[Script Wrecked]

The fundamental problem with saying that Layonaran civilizations are all fundamentally racist is that it conflicts with its own cosmology.   The whole idea of saying that "99.9999999% of dark elves will stab you in the back" is that it flat out isn't true.    As I've seen multiple times in game, Az'attans are so dedicated to peace that they will allow themselves to be tortured to death rather than raise their hand against another, even in seeming self-defense.

Umm... You haven't shown any link between this:

[INDENT]... "99.9999999% of dark elves will stab you in the back" ...[/INDENT]

and this:

[INDENT]As I've seen multiple times in game, Az'attans are so dedicated to peace that they will allow themselves to be tortured to death rather than raise their hand against another, even in seeming self-defense.[/INDENT]

that precludes both of them being true.

[cbnicholson]

Because while you're killing the Az'attan, the human Corathite would be  slipping dragon poison into your wine.

Which brings up the truth that the real monsters don't always appear as such!:p

Someone with a hood and a name containing an apostrophe = dark elf.

lol.

Thank you everyone for your thoughts here.  Weighing the different points of view, I'm sticking with actions as the only true way to judge someones intent and purpose. *shrugs*

[Alatriel]

I'm sticking with actions as the only true way to judge someones intent and purpose. *shrugs*

I think that this:

99.999999% will stab you in the back.

is exactly what that's about though... that does prove their actions.  They aren't specific people, they're a collective.  Which is more just?  Killing one because they are part of a race that kills thousands, or letting one go because they aren't committing evil acts right that second, so they can go and kill ten innocents later on?  Think about the larger picture.

[gilshem ironstone]

The whole idea of saying that "99.9999999% of dark elves will stab you in the back" is that it flat out isn't true.

If you read about intensely racist sentiments, they are rarely true.  Think about Nazi Germany and the American Slave Trade.  Were the conclusions drawn about Jewish and people of African descent true?  Not in the slightest.  Yet, people had their fear whip them in to a frenzy.  This likely could happen in Layonara.  One little baby massacring dark elf raiding party ruined it for all the good ones.

[cbnicholson]

Which is more just?  Killing one because they are part of a race that  kills thousands, or letting one go because they aren't committing evil  acts right that second, so they can go and kill ten innocents later on?   Think about the larger picture.

 I am, and the larger picture is this: If injustice is done to one based on the actions of others, DB has failed to follow Divine Law.  What you describe is a mob mentality, not something based on the law.

[Aerimor]

 One little baby massacring dark elf raiding party ruined it for all the good ones.

Good ones?  The -only- good dark elf is a dead one.  

~Aerimor Lightbringer and any sensable folk of Layonara.

P.S.: That goes for Alantha and Iradril too.  Undermining societal values.... I see through your ploys.

[ycleption]

I am, and the larger picture is this: If injustice is done to one based on the actions of others, DB has failed to follow Divine Law.  What you describe is a mob mentality, not something based on the law.

There is nothing wrong with your character holding a minority view, or interpreting the divine law as he sees right. But keep in mind that it is a minority view, and given that Rofirein's courts are willing to incarcerate dwarves in Rael who don't have papers, is it that much of a stretch to imagine his courts would be willing to arrest dark elves for being in civilized places?

[miltonyorkcastle]

**relaxes back, thoroughly enjoying the bi-yearly debate, discussion, and musing regarding monstrous races and Layonaran societies.**

You know, as long as you only play one-quarter-monster characters that are neutral to all deities, more covered in weapons, and twice as big as those puny little dark elves, people won't try and kill you on sight. They'll back away in fear of you instead. Unless those people are Corathites, large dragons, or royalty. Then they'll try to make a tool out of you.

Given that Az'attans healer/pilgrims are, according to Ed, quite common, I see no reason why racial bigotry would be ever considered viable.

Oh, and simply because Az'attan pilgrims are common enough to be known doesn't mean they're often accepted. Most surface Az'attans are not dark elves, and people preaching racial equality, forgiveness, and redemption are usually laughed at, even if they have divine powers to back them up. Az'attans are often considered heretics and looneys. The exception to this is Audira.

A dark elf trying to preach Az'atta's way would generally be greeted by something like this (particularly on Mistone), assuming he/she was captured instead of outright killed: "Look, boys. This dark elf's gone to the hen house, har! He's cookoo. Can't even figure out what he's supposed to be doing. Az'atta, har! All the more fun stringing him up tomorrow, yeeeee haw."

Instead, we would much more likely have religious bigotry, which is just as typical a kind of response to low-intensity conflict, if not more so.

As for the whole bit about religious bigotry, you're right, and it does happen all the time, despite that you seldom see such IG. You can imagine in Prantz that they keep a close eye on everyone passing through since Sulterio has no allies, and clerics are stationed at the gates. Of course, it's hard for constant religious checking to be enforced on PCs, but Corathites really should not be entering Deliarite temples and expecting much service. The Deliarites may not be able to tell directly that the PC worships Corath (for all they know the PC worships Branderback or Sulterio), but they'll know that something about this creature doesn't sit well with their god. And really, that goes for Rofireinites, too! Deliar doesn't really care for Rofie much, and as such Rofies shouldn't be expecting service in a Deliarite temple. I use Deliarites as an example because their temple is the most frequented by PCs, being that it is also mixed with a marketplace and in Port Hempstead.

I'd trade this knowledge with other rulers in other towns, and keep an eye on all of them.

I tend to agree with this, though it would be hard to nail down the exact number of stonebound people. Most are actually not that famous, particularly not outside a local sphere. I would expect Prantz to have a "stonebound registry" sort of thing, but while Blackford may in fact have a list somewhere of known stonebounds, I wouldn't expect Blackford to require registry.

[geloooo]

I tend to agree with this, though it would be hard to nail down the exact number of stonebound people. Most are actually not that famous, particularly not outside a local sphere. I would expect Prantz to have a "stonebound registry" sort of thing, but while Blackford may in fact have a list somewhere of known stonebounds, I wouldn't expect Blackford to require registry.

Ni'haer dabs some cloth over his sweaty forehead as he reads this.

Whew. Good thing that's not happening.

[EdTheKet]

I have a question regarding Dark Elves and Divine Law.  Last night a pc dark elf openly acknowledged his race and even agreed to travel with another party member to Vehl to be registered as a dark elf at the Temple.  It was presented to me that by because of the history of dark elves, the simple open presence of one on Mistone is a violation of the law.  I'm aware that some cities like Hempstead ban Dark Elves openly, but what of the surrounding countryside?  Is it legal to arrest and incarcerate a dark elf that is following the law simply because he or she is a dark elf?   I spent some time in Lore and haven't found a single thing to back this statement up.  Quite the contrary in fact.  As stated in the Law of Layonara -
Principles of the Divine  Court

• Justice will be done in line with the dogma of Rofirein
• Each individual has a right to a fair trial
• Each individual is innocent until proven guilty
  
• Each individual has the right to appoint a representative to speak  for him on his behalf

For my primary character, Daniel, only actions and clear plausible statements of ill intent can be judged.  To him, if another character regardless of race is being truthful and following the law to the best of their ability, there is no just cause for an arrest.  Links and thoughts that would give this matter some clarity?

Good question cb and we'll look into creating some more info and putting it out there for everyone. Stay tuned.

I see no reason why racial bigotry would be ever considered viable

Then I suggest reading up.
LORE: Dwarf: Relations, Environment, Society, Religion
LORE: Elf: Relations, Environment, Society, Religion
LORE: Halfling: Relations, Environment, Society, Religion
LORE: Gnome: Relations, Environment, Society, Religion
LORE: Grimal: Relations, Environment, Society, Religion
LORE: Brokanian: Relations, Environment, Society, Religion
LORE: t'oleflor: Relations, Environment, Society, Religion
LORE: Human: Relations, Environment, Society, Religion

and please stop dragging in Az'attans by the hairs.

Your point:

The whole idea of saying that "99.9999999% of dark elves will stab you  in the back" is that it flat out isn't true.

Is wrong. Why? Read the history, the timeline, and previous posts made by me and other GMs on the subject, dark elves are bad news. A couple of Az'attans, a few PC dark elves or the entire Az'attan church for that matter, isn't going to change that perception. (But that church will try anyway, it's called idealism, or perhaps even a form of fanaticism)

Mothers and Fathers tell their children that if they're not good then  the dark elves might come and hurt their families and then how would  they feel if the last thing they did was fight with their parents over  eating their vegetables or doing chores?  They are the boogey men, the  monsters under the bed and in the closet.  They are the reason people  are afraid of the dark.  

This is indeed what happens, and anyone stating that is not so, is simply wrong. I don't think I can make it any clearer than that.

[SteveMaurer]

A dark elf trying to preach Az'atta's way would generally be greeted by something like this (particularly on Mistone), assuming he/she was captured instead of outright killed: "Look, boys. This dark elf's gone to the hen house, har! He's cookoo. Can't even figure out what he's supposed to be doing. Az'atta, har! All the more fun stringing him up tomorrow, yeeeee haw."

Have a care about this, Milton.   My assertion that the religion of Az'atta, was written up in such a way that almost all worshipers outside Audira would be quickly killed off (as they are hated by all sides and religiously bound to be almost completely defenseless along with carrying an easily identifiable mark), was something that Ed vociferously disagreed with.    And in fact, became incensed that I dared to assert.

So somehow Az'attans manage to avoid being strung up or stabbed in the back enough to survive and do their work.   By world builder fiat.    End of story.   (It's never really been explained how, but maybe the goddess personally intervenes herself gently guides her flock out of danger all the time.)

And regardless of whether they're dark elves themselves or not Az'attans worship a Dark Elf.   Dark elves dominate their religious hierarchy.   That is not something that would just be ignored, especially by the beneficiaries of the religion's charity.
- - -

Well, according to Ed, that last statement isn't true.   Apparently the whole church of Az'atta has no appreciable effect on the perceptions of the world, even though a Level 0 clerical cantrip can tell the difference between a "good one" who will do whatever she can to save your life, and a "bad one" who will do whatever he can to end it.     By worldbuilder fiat.  End of story.

[EdTheKet]

Have a care about this, Milton.   My assertion that the religion of Az'atta, was written up in such a way that almost all worshipers outside Audira would be quickly killed off (as they are hated by all sides and religiously bound to be almost completely defenseless along with carrying an easily identifiable mark), was something that Ed vociferously disagreed with.    And in fact, became incensed that I dared to assert.

That's quite an assumption to make, me being incensed. I've made my case before (thread reference below) and classifying me as being angry is not something I think you should be doing based on written forum posts.

So somehow Az'attans manage to avoid being strung up or stabbed in the back enough to survive and do their work.   By world builder fiat.    End of story.   (It's never really been explained how, but maybe the goddess personally intervenes herself gently guides her flock out of danger all the time.)

Not going to have that discussion again, I've made my stance clear, if people want to read up, this is the thread.

And regardless of whether they're dark elves themselves or not Az'attans worship a Dark Elf.   Dark elves dominate their religious hierarchy.   That is not something that would just be ignored, especially by the beneficiaries of the religion's charity.

Which is why a dark elf claiming to be an az'attan better rpove real quick he's the real deal or he'll risk getting killed by a mob/guard/militiaman.

[Gulnyr]

There is nothing wrong with your character holding a minority view, or interpreting the divine law as he sees right. But keep in mind that it is a minority view, and given that Rofirein's courts are willing to incarcerate dwarves in Rael who don't have papers, is it that much of a stretch to imagine his courts would be willing to arrest dark elves for being in civilized places?

The courts in Prantz are NOT Rofireinite courts!  They are Rael's courts with Rofireinite observers.  It's a loose agreement by which Rael hopes to get some cred and the Rofireinites get to try to influence things.  That's it.

And I agree with CB.  You can't go around jailing people for what they might do and truly be just.  It sucks, but someone has to actually do something criminal before they can rightfully be detained, and it all has to pass the courts with evidence and all that good stuff to stick.  I can't count the times Jennara has wanted to do something about someone who might (or probably would) do something and didn't (couldn't, really) because it never would have held up at trial.  It wouldn't have been just.  I think the "for the greater good" concept you're describing better fits the Toranites as a church position rather than the Rofireinites or the Divine Law.

[ycleption]

Apologies for the inaccuracy - I would argue that some measure of condoning is still present, although your correction certainly weakens my argument.

[miltonyorkcastle]

even though a Level 0 clerical cantrip can tell the difference between a "good one" who will do whatever she can to save your life, and a "bad one" who will do whatever he can to end it.

Note that most communities would not have a cleric available to "test" the dark elves. This might work at the gates to a city, or after the dark elf has been arrested by a local guard, but in places that have no regulated military/government/clergy readily accessible (most of the world, actually), there are no guarantees that the dark elf will have a chance to prove, as Ed suggests, their "goodness."

Also, there are "good" gods that treat Az'atta as an enemy or unfriendly. If an Az'attan dark elf managed to find herself in a dwarven community and the only clergy was a Voraxian, she could pretty much write herself off, heh.

A human worshipper of Az'atta, on the other hand, entering that same dwarven community might be questioned after he admits he serves Az'atta and the cleric determines he is indeed considered an 'unfriendly' by Vorax. He'd likely even be held for a time to determine he wasn't a threat, but would then otherwise be dismissed as, "One o' dem crazies. Worshippin' 'good darkies.'" *snicker, snicker* He might even be asked to leave, but they wouldn't string him up.

This is why the 'worldbuilders' can say that Az'attans aren't wholesale slaughtered outside Audira--because most aren't dark elves, and for that very reason, even if they worship a supposed (I say 'supposed,' because it's not uncommon for the layperson to choose to believe that such a concept as the existence of a good dark elven god to be impossible) dark elf, they're not going to be killed on sight. If there's a hidden Corathite or Ca'duzite in the community, that might change the situation, but even then, the killing wouldn't be a public display unless the Az'attan was a dark elf.

So, yes, you're right in that dark elf worshippers of Az'atta, stonebound or otherwise, would/should/could run into severe trouble outside Audira. But as I understand it, the majority of the faith that lives on the surface is not comprised of dark elves, and therefore would not be at risk of mass execution, regardless of the fact that they worship a dark elf.

[SteveMaurer]

That's quite an assumption to make, me being incensed. I've made my case before (thread reference below) and classifying me as being angry is not something I think you should be doing based on written forum posts.

After further consideration, I agree that the word I used, "incensed", is too strong, and I withdraw it, with apologies.

You did, however, characterize my plea that you be explicit about the vast limitations that you put on all PCs of the Az'attan faith into the LORE (as opposed to stating it in half a dozen scattered posts) as "derogatory", when it clearly wasn't.    I'll leave it up to other readers to decide whether that characterization came from anger over my hard questions or not.

Beyond that, yes, I agree.   Az'atta is exactly as you say she is.   So let's drop it.

Which is why a dark elf claiming to be an az'attan better rpove real quick he's the real deal or he'll risk getting killed by a mob/guard/militiaman.

I again agree, although there is nothing I can see the dark elf would need to do to "prove" anything.  (Nobody would trust a Dark Elf's word anyway.)   Instead, the local priest of just about any local church, a massively powerful Level 1 Cleric, would be called in to make the determination.

And if you think about it, pretty soon this would be standard operating procedure.   A non-human?   Divine Relation him.   A stranger?   Divine Relation him.   Something possibly stolen?   Round up anyone you don't know, Divine Relation.    You yourself suggested that one of the ways Az'attans know who is an assassin or not was by using Divine Relation.

In such an environment, the color of your skin would mean nothing.  But devotion to any of the less savory gods (including the Dark Elf gods of the Deep, but more commonly, Shadonites) would be the mark of death.

I don't know if this is what you intended.   But it is the natural result of the spells you put into the world.

[EdTheKet]

Fine with dropping Az'atta from this discussion

I am going to comment on the words you are saying I said though.

First the "derogatory", I said the tone of your post seemed derogatory in tone.

Second, regarding

  You yourself suggested that one of the ways Az'attans know who is an  assassin or not was by using Divine Relation.

I did no such thing.

I said here:

Sure, they are hard to anticipate, but an Az'attan wouldn't be as naive  to just heal anyone without attempting to check the divine relation.

I didn't say anything about assassins and divine relations.

[miltonyorkcastle]

And if you think about it, pretty soon this would be standard operating procedure. A non-human? Divine Relation him. A stranger? Divine Relation him. Something possibly stolen? Round up anyone you don't know, Divine Relation.

I'm mildly confused as to how people could narrow down devotion to an evil deity. Divine Relation doesn't actually tell you which deity someone serves. Perhaps you could assume in some cases that "enemies" are flat going to be evil (though I can't think of any gods off the top of my head who's enemies are all evil - unless you/the community decides that Shadon and Branderback are "evil," which you seem to take as a possibility). I recall you mentioning that if you had deities from two different faiths working together it would be easier to narrow down the baddies, and that makes sense, and would be useful in the cities. Outside of the few cities around the world, you'd be hard pressed to find two clerics of differing faiths in the same community.

Someone in Fort Llast that gets "divine relationed" as an enemy by the Toranites certainly couldn't be assumed to be the servant of an evil god, unless he/she is a dark elf, heh.

[lonnarin]

Well, there's D&D evil and then there's "anything opposed to my own fanatical worldview" evil.

[SteveMaurer]

Second, regarding I did no such thing.

                     

 Sure, they are hard to anticipate, but an Az'attan wouldn't be as naive to just heal anyone without attempting to check the divine relation.
    I didn't say anything about assassins and divine relations.

I didn't say anything about assassins and divine relations.

That was directly as a refutation of what I was saying, in part:

Corathites are hard to anticipate, because they don't wave a skull and crossbones from a mile away. Instead, members of Cortath's church are all disguised. They'll fake an injury and then plant the poison dagger in the Cleric who tries to heal them (or use any one of hundreds of other methods of killing the undefended Az'attan).

Your response was pretty clearly intended to say that one way you an Az'attan avoids Corathite assassins (and thus manages to live another day), is by using Divine Relation.   So I'm not exactly sure how you can say you "did no such thing".


I'm not trying to beat you up here, Ed.  I just don't understand why there are these distinctions made.    To me, Divine Relation is in Layonara as an alternative to "Detect Evil" out of AD&D.   But D.E. and D.G. was never thought through from a societal point of view, and like a lot of ill thought out D&D spells, screws up fantasy world plotting like crazy.    It basically renders any form of surreptitiousness nearly impossible to pull off.    Which is one reason why every subsequent fantasy game world dropped it like a hot potato (Tekumel, Runequest, etc.).  

But if you're going to have that kind of a spell that cheap, then expect it to be used.    Az'attan priestesses use it on people they're going to heal to make sure it isn't a Corathite assassin they're healing.  And every Rofie seeing anyone suspicious at the gate will use it as well.