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Author Topic: Druids and geming  (Read 797 times)

willhoff

Druids and geming
« on: September 07, 2010, 05:16:01 am »
I play a druid, Zigruum Frostbeard, and have some questions regarding mining gems and ore.  



Brief Background:



A while back I had an OOC encounter with a GM while in game.  We had been in the Krashin kabold cave, I was playing Zig, and some of my party members had mined the alexandrite.  I used a heal spell on the rocks to role play healing the rocks while they were geming.  After coming out of the cave, a GM stopped us with their avatar.  They had various role play issues to discuss with our party, but I want to address this one about druids. They said as a druid I should have forbid the party from mining the gems and that the healing idea was not adequate.  Long story short, the GM suggested that if I mined or let a party member mine gems I could possibly have my druidic powers taken away.



I have played with other druids who have allowed and even taken part in the mining of gems.  I have also seen druids allow the harvesting of ore.  I have never seen a druid forbid a party from mining gems or even ore.



Questions for Discussion:



1)  Are druids forbidden to mine gems?

2)  Do druids have to affirmatively forbid any party members from mining gems?

3)  Are druids allowed to let party members mine for ore?

4)  What if a druid needs a silver enchantment for his scimittar to better hunt undead, the bane of most druids?  In that case would a druid be allowed to accompany a party mining silver?  

5)  As in question #4 a druid may have needs for other gems and ore (topaz dust for casting stoneskin, emeralds for ability jewelry, titanium for weapon enhancements against outsiders etc.)  Is it expected of a druid to sacrafice and pay top dollar for these finished items, were others can reduce the cost by harvesting the raw materials?



I realize and enjoy the fact that their are vast and different ways for druids to rp how they would handle these situations.  But I dont want to fear Zig losing his powers over a misconception about the mining of gems and ore. Therefore, I think after some discussion here, it would be helpful for the Team to lay down some specific parameters for druidic conduct regarding my questions.



I look forward to hearing opinions and responses from both GM's and players,



~Willhoff
 
The following users thanked this post: lonnarin, Lord Dark

lonnarin

Druids and geming
« Reply #1 on: September 07, 2010, 06:16:39 pm »

   
Quote:

   
   
      
   
   

         
            

               Originally Posted by Dorganath
               View Post
            

            


A leather strap could (and should) come from a cow (or pig, or deer or any other meat-based animal) that's been slaughtered for food, making use of the whole beast (which is friendly to Druidic ideals) rather than leaving parts to rot.

         
      

Totally with you on that one.  Grovel is a 15th level tailor and even he cannot make twisted leather strips himself with much chance.  He can make magical lion bags with a 35% chance, but the worthless strip of twisted leather yet remains a mystery. :P



Since he cannot justify slaughtering six lions for one failed attempt at a backpack, he mostly just trains by asking his friends to save him the skins of dires that attack them in their journeys, and eating the meat.  In that sense, he's not a harvester as much as he is a scavenger.
 

RollinsCat

Re: Druids and geming
« Reply #2 on: October 04, 2010, 10:27:50 pm »
//missing post IDs

1703625 / Hellblazer
1703627 / Pseudonym
1703629 / Masterjack
1703630 / Hellblazer
1703631 / willhoff
1703637 / Dorganath
1703638 / Hellblazer
1703639 / Dorganath
1703643 / Hellblazer
1703644 / lonnarin
1703653 / ycleption
 

Skabot Redwolf

Re: Druids and geming
« Reply #3 on: October 10, 2010, 01:23:51 pm »
To forbid the harvest of inanimate materials requires druids to believe in animism, which I don't believe is the case, especially since in a magic realm the druids would be able to verify the existence of spirits in rocks and such.  Hence, for mining to be taboo, druids should be able to communicate with stones.:\
 

ycleption

Re: Druids and geming
« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2010, 09:00:32 pm »
Quote from: Skabot Redwolf
To forbid the harvest of inanimate materials requires druids to believe in animism


I don't really see what one has to do with the other... animism might be one reason why somewhat would behave differently towards inanimate objects, but is hardly the only reason.
 

darkstorme

Re: Druids and geming
« Reply #5 on: October 10, 2010, 11:06:07 pm »
Also, while it may not be as applicable with gems, smelting is a monstrously harmful (environmentally-speaking) activity.  There can hardly be any reason to mine ore other than to smelt it, so it would be hard to justify a druid backing up a crew going mining for ore, or (if they had the feats) mining it themselves.
 

Lord Dark

Re: Druids and geming
« Reply #6 on: October 11, 2010, 01:23:34 am »
What exactly makes mining bad? I never known the reason, if it's derived from the earth, isn't that natural?
 

Script Wrecked

Re: Druids and geming
« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2010, 01:58:16 am »
Quote from: Lord Dark
What exactly makes mining bad? I never known the reason, if it's derived from the earth, isn't that natural?


[POST=1627402]Link[/POST].
 

ycleption

Re: Druids and geming
« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2010, 10:47:47 am »
(since there still seems to be some confusion , I'm reposting my own answer that got eaten by the forum crash monster)

Gems are a tough one - unlike metal, gems just get used in so much of normal equipment - jewelry, wands, many scrolls, potions, enchantments and resistances, etc.

I think my druid toes a pretty firm druidic line, but I have not been able to stop myself from doing a good deal of gem mining. When I am with a party, I do try and RP taking only a little of what is there, or gathering rocks (as from an old stream bed), rather than chiseling them off.

Ore, to me at least, should be a pretty firm no, druids should not participate in mining expeditions, with a possible few exceptions - gold (and certain other things not important for Layo) can be extracted through panning or simple sluice boxes, which yields "native" metal (as opposed to ore), that doesn't require heavy processing or leave large amounts of slag or dross as waste. So long as that is how gold extraction is RPed, I personally would not see anything wrong with it. Silver also does occur natively, but its very uncommon - maybe if you took one nugget each trip it might fairly represent finding silver outside of ore. The problem with harvesting ore is that in game you see somebody toss ore in, and nice shiny ready-for-alchemy silver bars come out. You don't see the massive wood or coal input being used to burn the fires, and you don't see the toxic lead and sulfur slag heaps that are left over from processing silver ore. Maybe if a druid saw silver being processed, they would conclude that the poisoning of Layonara from the process was less than the benefit gained from being able to smite more undead, but I don't think many would be able to accept that. I am, of course, operating under some assumptions based on earth's geology, and how earth's ancient peoples mined and processed - maybe users of the Al'noth can create magical ever-burning forge flames, and ritual purification to alleviate the toxicity of slag heaps, who knows?
 

lonnarin

Re: Druids and geming
« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2010, 11:49:44 am »
Druids are to be naked at all times.  No armor, metal, rings, helms, not even textiles.  Have you ever seen a textile created by nature?  I know I haven't!  Leathers and hides are a no-no too, since leathers are processed forms of skin that interfere with heir natural skinniness. All druids are to be cloaked only in live, squirming furry critters, and using the same as weapons.  Grab a badger by the tail and swing it around like a flail!

Seriously though, if a class wears jewelry containing gemstones enchanted specifically for druid, (feldspar& garnet) uses spells that require enchanted diamonds or dust of Topaz, then it's a good bet that they support gemcrafting.  Druids do not have to be soiopathically eco-friendly, tree-hugging vegans eating only recycled alfalfa.  They are about balance.  As long as they give back to the earth in some form, whether it be hunting monsters far more destructive to the environment, planting new seeds along the way, rehabilitating orphaned snow leopard cubs, etc. then they may take from nature as well.  Anybody who suggests that druids only give give give is missing the point of balance.

So hunt those animals! Chop down a tree! *gasp!* and plant another in its place.  Plant 5, maybe 10.  Dig up a rock, the world is full of rocks.  Just don't go around on slash & burn deforestation rampages like Eon and nature will be just fine.
 

Rowana

Re: Druids and geming
« Reply #10 on: October 12, 2010, 03:35:01 am »
Quote from: willhoff

Brief Background:

A while back I had an OOC encounter with a GM while in game.  We had been in the Krashin kabold cave, I was playing Zig, and some of my party members had mined the alexandrite.  I used a heal spell on the rocks to role play healing the rocks while they were geming.  After coming out of the cave, a GM stopped us with their avatar.  They had various role play issues to discuss with our party, but I want to address this one about druids. They said as a druid I should have forbid the party from mining the gems and that the healing idea was not adequate.  Long story short, the GM suggested that if I mined or let a party member mine gems I could possibly have my druidic powers taken away.

Alright, I said I wasn't jumping into this but I feel somewhat forced by the continued trend of this thread. I was the GM in question that apparently slung mud and showered poor Zigrum with untruths and super restrictive lies.

Actually that's not at all true. I do have a log of the events to back me up and if it's requested, I'll post it up in it's unedited form for all to see the exact discussion. Druid abuse of nature wasn't the only reason I stopped the group. As I recall there was a pretty serious dogma/deity clash that was being ignored as well.

For clarity's sake to the server, the event in question was a specific case, not a general "no you can't do this ever" one. In this case, every vein was being mined, every creature was being killed, and in general every possible advantage from the earth and it's creatures was being taken in an effort to better the crafting skills/create a stock pile of stuff for others. That is against what Layonaran Druids stand for. Period. Zig's player did RP dumping some healing magic into each vein and made a half-hearted objection at someone's very illicit description of Mother Nature. Unfortunately, general healing magic doesn't do a thing to regrow what was taken nor fix anything in anyway. It's like slapping some aloe on 3rd degree burns with 90% coverage on a body. Additionally there was no real insistence that caution be used as to how much was taken, lives lost etc. The whole situation was very much an RP issue and not a mechanical "no druids can't do anything, they are weak vegans that sit around singing Kumbaya all day." Just as many druids are nice as are nasty. Despite the current portrayal of druids by PCs (excluding two that I can recall off the top of my head), a good portion of the NPC populace sees them as down right nasty evil creatures at times. They have been known to kill people for just walking through a forest and for no other reason.


Quote from: willhoff
Questions for Discussion:

1)  Are druids forbidden to mine gems?
Nope, a specific need here and there may require a trade between a druid and Mother Nature for the greater balance of it all. Constant pulling of Her (or It's for the non religious) resources simply to make a better ring, skill, etc is not a balanced way to operate. Balance, need, amounts, intent.. all of these things must be weighed against the taking of resources.


Quote from: willhoff
2)  Do druids have to affirmatively forbid any party members from mining gems?
Nope but they have a vested interest in weighing in on how much is too much and finding out WHY the deed is being done. When Mother Nature dies off or even 'just' becomes greatly weakened because too many resources are being pulled too fast from Her/It, the druids will lose a lot more than playmates to go bum around the server killing stuff with.


Quote from: willhoff
3)  Are druids allowed to let party members mine for ore?
It has been stated over and over that ore itself is not unnatural but the processing of it makes it very unnatural to druids. No they aren't being asked to stand guard over every vein of ore with a shock stick and kill anyone who tries to mine. They are asked to be mindful of the harvesting of Mother Natures resources and make sure that only what is necessary is taken. To make another medical reference (which I feel is a very appropriate stance for druids to take) when is the need so great that you take a piece of bone from a living body to graft it to another part in order to save it? When is the need so great that delving into the bones of Mother Nature is actually NECESSARY.  What's that line, well that's a great point of discontent between races and dogmas the world over. Druids tend to go with, 'take only what you need right now and leave the rest alone' and no, getting your crafting skill up to it's peak is not a need, for the record. Druids are known for being penniless, trinkeless, houseless, etc, etc. They Shun those things. Please see Dorand if that's the kind of character you want to play. Lots of the same comments apply here as with #2 and #1.


Quote from: willhoff
4)  What if a druid needs a silver enchantment for his scimittar to better hunt undead, the bane of most druids?  In that case would a druid be allowed to accompany a party mining silver?  
Better hunting undead is a relative concept. Is a druid somehow less effective without being able to swing an enchanted (and very grossly made enchantment that does indeed filter nastiness into the environment with it's processes!) weapon at undead or is s/he perhaps given other tools with which to do the job with same or better effectiveness? What makes getting a silver enchantment the only way to be a better undead hunter-druid? This is an RP question and the process of making said enchantment NEEDS to be weighed against what is gained. Perhaps if a particular undead who is going to destroy an entire eco-system can only be killed this way, it is a fair and balanced trade. Otherwise, there's likely a better way and less damaging way to operate and still be a good undead hunter-druid.


Quote from: willhoff
5)  As in question #4 a druid may have needs for other gems and ore (topaz dust for casting stoneskin, emeralds for ability jewelry, titanium for weapon enhancements against outsiders etc.)  Is it expected of a druid to sacrafice and pay top dollar for these finished items, were others can reduce the cost by harvesting the raw materials?
I know we clashed about this at the time of discussion that apparently sparked these questions so many months after the fact, but stoneskin and other enchantments are not required to play a class or character. There are ways around using components, such as the eshew feat line. Just like there is a sacrifice in playing a dark elf (which is considered a special race by lore standards) there are sacrifices in playing a druid (which is considered a special class by lore standards). There are ideals you are expected to uphold and it is stated as such at the time of submission. Players are not approved if they do not agree to uphold those ideals. In this case a sacrifice can either be, casting those spells at a delayed time (compared to your mechanical level) just like Zig's traveling buddies suggested at the time, or simply not casting those spells at all. And I'll re-head off the whole discussion about "How come we should sacrifice this stuff if 'Mother Nature' gave them to us to use at this time?" That's a slippery slope to use general mechanics to justify RP. By the same logic Az'attan wizards are being given carte blanche to go cast every attack spell in the book just because they have it. Our devs don't have the time to go through and code up a different type of class for every possible combination of race/class/deity/alignment/PrC. Instead we rely on players to stick to the spirit of the server and RP the combination they submitted for of their own choice.

In Zig's specific case we, the CA staff, did warn you that there would be a very fine line for you to walk where you balanced being a Voraxian and a druid. Being a druid comes first, Voraxian second (if you are devout enough to have it in your field) and dwarf last (despite the inherent Voraxian-ness in being a dwarf). Just a little nudge, Voraxians don't really like magic at all and consider 99% percent of magic to be 'evil necromancy,' druids included. The exception? Clerics blessed with the gifts from Vorax (and I think Dorand and Vorax's allies). So the need for stoneskin dust etc, really is double impacted here by lore indications.


Quote from: willhoff
I realize and enjoy the fact that their are vast and different ways for druids to rp how they would handle these situations.  But I dont want to fear Zig losing his powers over a misconception about the mining of gems and ore. Therefore, I think after some discussion here, it would be helpful for the Team to lay down some specific parameters for druidic conduct regarding my questions.


I look forward to hearing opinions and responses from both GM's and players,


~Willhoff

So first and foremost, GMs aren't going to waste time stalking ore/gem veins to grab up poor druids and yank their powers. We're supposed to be doing other things like running quests that no one seems to get enough of. As a matter of fact we tend to operate far more loosely then we really should reinforcing the ideals that druids are expected to uphold because we don't want to rules lawyer people into being miserable. We would much rather rely on the player to stick to the concept they supposedly submitted for of their own free will via the Character Submissions.

There was no misconception on my part about what druids are about. They are about keeping things pretty minimalistic, taking what is needed only and supporting Nature in all it's aspects with some deference given for RP playstyles and character histories.

If you are a druid, don't spend your time slaughtering everything (okay Undead is fine, and a few other taints that some druids might find offensive, like ... civilized humans) and/or harvesting the heck out of every resource you are able to. Set some personal parameters about what is acceptable and what is not for that character and stick to them for the sake of RP. RP is what this place is about and that's far more important then a bigger, badder sword with enchantment or a bigger, badder spell, or a bigger, badder 'mob' killed... etc, etc. If you need some help, certainly feel free to post some questions about it, or contact a friendly GM privately or whatever but it's ultimately a decision that a druid has to arrive at and stick to, and suffer whatever consequences that druid brings down on himself.

~row

Post Script-- The above statements are made with the full knowledge of Layonaran lore (to the best of my ability) and guidelines but not made as a statement by the Team and should be taken as my long held opinion not a statement of fact by the Team. Only the LoreMaster or World Creator, or a representative of either with their stamp of approval, have that power at this time.
 

miltonyorkcastle

Re: Druids and geming
« Reply #11 on: October 12, 2010, 10:31:10 am »
Hm... I think I'll jump off the bridge, too. Opinion follows.

Druids.... I view druids as sitting on one end of a scale. This scale is one of those used to identify a way in which people choose to live their lives. The scale measures adaptation. On one end of the scale you have those who attempt to wholly adapt themselves to their environment; on the other end, you have those who attempt to wholly adapt their environment to themselves. Most people live somewhere in the middle (surprise, surprise), both adapting to their environment somewhat and changing their environment a little to fit themselves.

Druids, particularly the more extreme varieties, wish to adapt entirely to the natural environment (as opposed to other sorts of environments)- they adapt to their surroundings. Extreme civilization, on the other hand (and actually, religion is typically one of the big "civilizing" factors), not only alters their environment until it suits perceived needs, but seeks to control every aspect of the environment, thereby adapting the natural environment to civilization.

Therefore, anything you do that involves controlling or altering the natural environment to fit (adapt to) your own desires makes you less druidic and more civilized. Anything you do that allows you to fit into (adapt to) the normal cycles of the natural environment makes you more druidic and less civilized.

If removing a gem is part of some natural process, then you have done something druidic. If removing a gem involves a process that allows you greater control over the natural environment, then you have done something civilized.
 

willhoff

Re: Druids and geming
« Reply #12 on: October 12, 2010, 06:52:00 pm »
Row,

Attached please see the logs from the incident.  I have edited them only to omit tells and taken out large chunks fighting before and after as this was a huge log.

Now lets talk about them because you have mischaracterized what was said that day:

Quote
I was the GM in question that apparently slung mud and showered poor Zigrum with untruths and super restrictive lies.  Actually that's not at all true. I do have a log of the events to back me up and if it's requested, I'll post it up in it's unedited form for all to see the exact discussion.  Druid abuse of nature wasn't the only reason I stopped the group.


Taken from the logs:
Zigruum Frostbeard: [Party] should i have forbid them from mining?
Rowana : Yes. Absolutely.

You came down in your official gm capacity with your avatar and stopped our group in its tracks.  You stated that I should have forbid my group from mining gems period.  No caveats or options were given.  I received no follow up pm.  No P.S. that this is your opinion and not the official stance of Layonara.  The only way anyone would have taken that statement is an official GM madated rule that druids must forbid their party from mining any gems, period. Only now am I learning that there are options and ways to RP a druid harvesting gems and ore.  You can call it what you want but you laid down an absolute official rule that I later found out was not true.

Quote
For clarity's sake to the server, the event in question was a specific case, not a general "no you can't do this ever" one.

You broke our immersion and came down with your avatar in you official capacity and stated "absolutely" that I should have forbid my party from mining gems.  You gave no other caveats to the rule or RP options for later role play.  I don't know how many times you've dropped in on groups in the past to admonish them but I doubt its very often.  The only way anyone would have taken that is a general rule not a specific case rule.

Quote
In this case, every vein was being mined, every creature was being killed, and in general every possible advantage from the earth and it's creatures was being taken in an effort to better the crafting skills/create a stock pile of stuff for others. That is against what Layonaran Druids stand for. Period.


We entered the Krashin kobold cave and were forced to fight the kobolds.  We mined the alexandrite that happened to be in there and left.  Not sure were your getting this scorthed earth taking every possible advantage angle from. Sure we mined every gem cluster but I did tell them to go easy and role played healing the rocks.

Quote
Zig's player did RP dumping some healing magic into each vein and made a half-hearted objection at someone's very illicit description of Mother Nature.

That's your opinion about how I RP'd.  I healed the rocks and stood up for nature when a sly remark was made regarding her.  It may not be the way you would have said it but it doesn't make it wrong or half hearted.  I at least made an attempt to RP restoring the rocks to health.

Quote
Additionally there was no real insistence that caution be used as to how much was taken, lives lost etc.


If you read the logs I did tell the group to go easy on the gems:  

Zigruum Frostbeard: [Party] aye  be easy on er'

As far as lives lost, I don't see anything in Lore mandating that druids be pacifists.  In fact, it says "Some druids are outlaws, vigilantes, savages, while others are negotiators and pacifists."  Zigruum falls in line of the savage dwarven hunter type.  We only killed what was attacking us.  

Quote
Just a little nudge, Voraxians don't really like magic at all and consider 99% percent of magic to be 'evil necromancy,' druids included. The exception? Clerics blessed with the gifts from Vorax (and I think Dorand and Vorax's allies). So the need for stoneskin dust etc, really is double impacted here by lore indications.


Thats wrong.  Dwarves view the blessings from Nature in a different way than the filthy Al'noth from Lucinda.  The druid gets his powers from the rocks, the air, the trees not from Lucinda.  Zigruum would not cast a single blessing if he felt it was anything close to "evil necromancy"

As for the rest I thank you for your opinions on my questions.  I get it that Layo is all about RP and that is what I enjoy about it.  I have no problem abiding by the druidic oaths.  I would rather there be less rules too, especially when it come to role play.  

After the incident I left with an impression that I had to affirmatively forbid anyone in my group from chiseling any gems period.  After the incident I felt like I was being watched and wouldn't even go into caves were there was CNR when with a group so I could avoid the whole issue.  

I did some research since that time and found there are druids on the all time crafter list for gem crafting.  I uncovered forum trade hall posts were druids were selling all kinds of gem dusts and planning gemming trips for topaz.  Druids I ran with were mining gems and allowing others to mine ore. I started to feel I was being singled out and there was one set of rules for Zigruum and another for all other druids.

Once you suggested/threatened that my powers would be stripped my enjoyment in playing Zigruum was lost and I feared playing him.  I think if your going to take away the powers of a character based on his role play then rules should be established.  Only now have I realized that there are creative ways to balance CNR harvesting.

p.s. I really liked Dorg's post to this thread...I wish there was a way to retrieve it.  I also hope the opinions keep coming.
 

Dorganath

Re: Druids and geming
« Reply #13 on: October 12, 2010, 08:43:48 pm »
I'm sure whatever I wrote was witty and insightful...

*kicks Pseudonym away from his keyboard*

Anyway, I have no idea what it is I said, but I'm sure I could whip something up...

By in large, my personal opinion of the answers to the questions asked that Row addressed a few posts up falls in line with what she wrote.

One thing I want to address quickly before I forget is this:

Quote from: Rowana
Just a little nudge, Voraxians don't really like  magic at all and consider 99% percent of magic to be 'evil necromancy,'  druids included. The exception? Clerics blessed with the gifts from  Vorax (and I think Dorand and Vorax's allies). So the need for stoneskin  dust etc, really is double impacted here by lore indications.

Quote from: willhoff
Thats wrong.  Dwarves view the blessings from  Nature in a different way than the filthy Al'noth from Lucinda.  The  druid gets his powers from the rocks, the air, the trees not from  Lucinda.  Zigruum would not cast a single blessing if he felt it was  anything close to "evil necromancy"

Rowana didn't say "dwarves"...she said "Voraxians".  

Not all Voraxians are dwarves and not all dwarves are Voraxians.  A devout Voraxian only trusts the magic that comes from Vorax as a divine blessing. Arcane magic is the stuff of tricksters and weaklings.  Nature's magic is something different. It's not arcane, but it's not a gift from Vorax. It absolutely is not held in the same regard as either, so most distrust it because it didn't come from Vorax and others who probably merely tolerate it because it's not Arcane and doesn't seem that bad. And yes, there are Voraxians who have studied the Arcane, but you can be sure it is one of those "knowing your enemy" sorts of things rather than embracing the art.

So she's not wrong.

Moving on...

My view of how druids coexist with their environment is generally one of moderation and wisdom.  Since this is a computer game, however, I think lots of people get the mechanical necessities mixed up with the RP obligations and somehow grow to believe that the former trumps the latter.  This is simply not true.

Since Stoneskin has come up a lot in this thread, I'll use it as a basis and a beginning and move on from there.

So for Stoneskin, it's pretty well known that topaz dust is required for the spell, and this is not in dispute at all.  That leaves a druid with four primary options:

1) Don't cast it
2) Wait until one has the appropriate Eschew feat
3) Buy/trade/barter the dust from someone else
4) Collect the topaz oneself

Addressing each of these in turn...

1) Noble thought, Dorg, but don't hold your breath. It's too handy and too mechanically beneficial. It is not "required" or "necessary", though there's no denying it's benefit.  I know all this, of course. I just included this option for completeness.  
2) Probably the "best" option for the conscientious druid.  Does it mean that perhaps the character won't be able to choose some other feat that might make it more of a power-house and which might disrupt the planned build that a player may have for the character? Yes, yes it does.  Do I really think that's a worthy reason to argue against Eschew? No, I don't.  This is, of course, my opinion.
3) Ah money...next to XP it's what drives a lot of characters.  Druids and Paladins aren't supposed to pursue such things, so it's quite the Catch-22!  Yet there are other things that can be bartered, and each is an opportunity for RP and to deepen one's portrayal of druid.
4) And onto the meat of things...collecting. Or more generically, harvesting.  At this point, I'm going to stray into the point (heavily laden with personal opinion).

First off, RP-wise, a druid would never take a chisel to the rock face to dig out gems.  A druid would, however, gather up what might have been left by someone else who did so.  Mechanically, we can't represent this (well..presently. It could be coded, but that's not the point), but a druid can, and probably should, only harvest some of the minerals that are available.  Maybe the druid doesn't chisel the deposit to depletion, or maybe they just take one or two from each deposit.  There's options, if one thinks beyond the mechanics.

Regardless of what it is, a druid should never harvest anything to the maximum extent to which it can be harvested. I'm taking ore mining off the list here, and chopping wood as well, because of the weapon restrictions (and yes, multi-class druids are still druids first and foremost, and should therefore stick to their oaths and requirements regardless of what mechanics may permit) they simply can't.  Uprooting all the garlic in a region, picking all the aloe, digging all the clay, etc. These things are harmful in a druid's eyes, and should be avoided.  A druid in a party should encourage such conservation, and where possible, admonish others for not doing so in his/her sight.  Take only what you need.  Leave only footprints, etc.

I won't presume to speak for Rowana, and log files lack a certain context, so I'm really just guessing here, but I would estimate that her "Absolutely" comment was that Zigrum should have gotten on his party for essentially clear-cutting the gem deposits. That doesn't mean he should have attacked them or anything, but a more vocal effort or maybe a summon to up the intimidation factor....something!  Again, I don't know what went on before.  One line of "aye  be easy on er" doesn't, in my view, seem like much of an effort to convince a party to be conservative in its harvesting, but again...what was before the start of the log? I clearly don't know.

This quote from the log (edited to remove the comments to/from others for clarity)...
Quote
Rowana : There are other ways around it. Stoneskin isn't vital.
Zigruum Frostbeard: [Party] I disagree
Rowana : You can disagree all you want druid guy but Mother nature is  going to buck back and take your powers if you continue to violate her.
is a little troubling from the perspective of whatever benefit a spell  may have for a caster, that benefit should not take priority over the RP  of the character or of the class.

And from a bit further down:
Quote
Rowana : You guys are a creative bunch. I've seen it in how you try and  make your Apps work in subs. I know you can work it out. A little IC  violence, and all that! You know?~
Zigruum Frostbeard: [Party] //i know but why would moter  nature give powers that require mining of topaz
Zigruum Frostbeard: [Party] advice taken....just trying to work all this out thanks
Rowana : No, don't cross Mechanics with lore. That's a very dangerous road. You  need to exercise a little common sense where these thigns are  concerned. Our coders do not have time to specialze all of these spell  lists. Nore the Pallete space

(emphasis added)

I think this speaks for itself, but if anyone wants clarity, just ask.

Quote
I did some research since that time and found there are druids on the  all time crafter list for gem crafting.  I uncovered forum trade hall  posts were druids were selling all kinds of gem dusts and planning  gemming trips for topaz.  Druids I ran with were mining gems and  allowing others to mine ore. I started to feel I was being singled out  and there was one set of rules for Zigruum and another for all other  druids.

Careful with the historical data.  It doesn't tell the whole story. But there are two comments I'll make here.

First, our lore is a lot more solidified now than it ever has been.  The RP requirements for various classes have become more formalized and official...written down as opposed to understood or word-of-mouth. Clearly, we can't in fairness go back and retroactively punish someone for doing X before we said officially that X is not allowed. This may be the case in the single (unless I missed one) druid that is on the gem crafting list. I don't know.  But it leads to the second point.

Regardless of what was or what someone else may have done in the past, this does not automatically result in implicit permission for everyone else. As a sort of corollary to this, because a GM caught Player A at something but not Player B does not mean that Player A has been singled-out. It means that Player A got caught and Player B did not.  

It's been said many times. We can't be everywhere, and we don't want to be...and I'm pretty sure you all don't want us to be either. I strongly dispute the notion that Rowana or any other GM logs on simply to catch people doing wrong.  As a group, we'd rather reward people than admonish them. We'd rather nudge them gently than break immersion and stop the action.  However, we also feel that when there is an OOC action or an OOC misunderstanding that needs to be addressed, it should be handled in an OOC manner. In absolute truth, nudges, corrections or whatever you want to call them are intended to help, not punish. Only when things go to extremes do they stray into the "punishment" realm, and to be clear, this particular incident was the former, not the latter.

This leads on to the topic of a loss of powers.  

Quote
Once you suggested/threatened that my powers would be stripped my  enjoyment in playing Zigruum was lost and I feared playing him.  I think  if your going to take away the powers of a character based on his role  play then rules should be established.  Only now have I realized that  there are creative ways to balance CNR harvesting.

Actually, there are rules...written ones even.  What we do not have (and will not have) is an extremely detailed, point-by-point list of things that can/may/will result in a loss of powers for those classes to which such a thing would be applicable.  Why? There's too many possibilities...too many variables. For druids, there's oaths and a particular pattern of behavior that they are to maintain (and plenty of latitude within that, I'll add).  For Paladins, there's a code, dogma and deity relation.  For clerics there's the same, but without the code.  We have twenty-eight deities, each with its own rather exhaustive list of ways one could RP in opposition to their deity's wishes, and as such, there is absolutely no way we could or would want to detail them all.

So yes, the suspension of one's powers (and yes, it is typically temporary) is very much a judgment call, but it is also not a snap judgment (or hasn't been in my own memory) but a decision reached after a pattern of behavior for the player, at least one warning (sometimes both IC and OOC, so that it's clear to all involved) and a discussion amongst GMs.

Paladins have had their powers suspended. Clerics have had their powers suspended or curtailed. I think there's even been a druid or two who have fully or partially lost their connection with Nature for a time.

I'm sure this may not sit well, for those who like specifics and details, but it is the best way to go about it.  Again, it's not a snap judgment when such a thing is done, and except in one extreme case, there was always a reasonable path to reinstatement.  Want to avoid that extreme case?  RP your character/class/oaths/code/dogma, as appropriate.

So anyway, I hope that was as nice as the post that was lost, but if not, hopefully it helps anyway.

--------------------------

Oh...and for what it's worth (and in my opinion, solely) gems aren't living and never were, so healing them doesn't do anything.  Healing soil might have an effect, but gem deposits do not contain life.  They are, like everything else in the natural world, precious gifts of nature, just like animals, plants, trees, people, air, water, etc, and should be treated, and utilized, accordingly...from a druidic perspective, anyway.

Hope it helps.
 

ycleption

Re: Druids and geming
« Reply #14 on: October 12, 2010, 09:39:36 pm »
Druids should be difficult to play. My character has double difficulties, because she's also a fervent follower of a deity (one might even say a zealot)...  sometimes this is simply RP difficulties (just last night, I had to tell another character he couldn't join us on a trip, which is not something I want to do OOCly), and sometimes it is mechanical difficulties (the absence of non-metal medium armor, and the present discussion on mining, which impacts crafting and equipment. At the same time, it presents a lot of RP opportunities; I've had a couple great IC conversations recently with a character who was wondering about some of the same issues we're talking about in this thread, and why druids believe what they do. Its a lot of fun to take these restriction and weave them into the core beliefs of your character. I'm not going to say its never frustrating at times (I can't count how many times I've had to turn down trips to slaughter spiders because I play a druid), but in many ways, my druid is my favorite character, because of the RP that her devotion to nature yields. And you can focus on these things as "rules" or you can have the attitude that you chose to play a character who's practically required to produce interesting RP out of a lot of "normal" activity on the server :-)
 

Dorganath

Re: Druids and geming
« Reply #15 on: October 13, 2010, 01:22:38 am »
Oh...and not to beat this thread to death (and I think I said this before), in my personal opinion, the Druid class is not really a great one for crafting, and mostly from the sole perspective of oaths and the inherent, mechanical conflict between them and how the crafting system is structured.

Most crafts simply are not a good fit for a Druid as a general rule.  Weapon and armor crafting is right out, due to the fact that you're working with refined metals.  Smelting is out because you are making refined metals and polluting terribly in the process.

Carpentry/woodworking is a maybe, and one would think there are aspects of this that a druid would find a natural fit, and while a druid cannot wield a hand axe to chop trees, the foraging system allows collection of a modest amount of raw lumber.

Cooking is a decent fit, as is alchemy for the most part. Even gemcrafting can be somewhat justified, though it's a kind of odd pursuit for a Druid on a conceptual level.  Beyond that, advancement in the craft gets somewhat slow due to the fact that jewelry requires working with refined metals.

Fishing is a natural fit, provided the druid does not over-fish (are we sensing a pattern here?).  Tailoring is a mixed bag.  While one can make garments out of cloth or silk, it does greatly limit one's progression.

I believe there are some enchanting and/or infusing recipes that require a druid's touch, and these crafts aren't terrible ones for a druid either.

The caveat to all of this is that there is a tremendous amount of waste built into the crafting system as it exists right now. This is simply a fact of the system and it's very unlikely to change at this point...or at least not without a major refactoring and rebalancing of the progression of everything.

So what does this mean?  

Well, primarily, and again in my opinion, any druid crafter is going to have a slow progress in most cases, especially in those crafts which are not as well suited to druidic ideals.  The key factor here is that the mechanical necessities of the crafting system should not be used as an excuse to pillage CNR for the purposes of advancement.  And yeah, I know...this doesn't help the Druid crafter much. I play one (occasionally), so I'm not unfamiliar to the challenges.

Now, does this further mean that a druid should not buy or trade something made by a crafter who does not follow the same sort of ideals? After all, the amount of waste and plundering of nature would have been about the same. The answer is: of course not.  Using my own Druid as an example, he ordered and bought an oak staff from someone way back when, and as part of the deal, he wanted assurances that the crafter was respectful of Nature in the process of creating his staff.  This is possible because of course we, as players, can nudge our characters to seek out established crafters who have honed their art and who can (now) produce a particular work with a minimum of waste.  This of course is preferable, as long as we don't spend too much time adding up all the waste that went into getting said crafter to the point where he/she could make things reliably.

So anyway, the point is that crafting and druids are not the best fit in my opinion.  While it would make all the sense in the world for a Druid to be able to make his own armor or quarterstaff, I would much rather see said druid buy/barter/trade said item from someone who is already capable rather than pursuing the long slog of gaining crafting levels and tossing both successes and failures in the trash.