The World of Layonara
The Layonara Community => Ask A Gamemaster => Topic started by: davidhoff on February 13, 2012, 06:50:32 pm
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Hello,
I'm not sure if it was an intended result, but you can no longer apply an elemental damage rod to throwing weapons (ie, darts, throwing axes, etc). I know some work was done on bows a while back and this may be the result of that. Is this the result you wanted?
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Hm, my understanding was that the elemental rods were supposed to work on any stack of ammunition, be it thrown or shot, so I'm curious as well.
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My only uncertainty to this point is that I never tried it, however...
...I don't remember it being possible to enhance thrown weapons with elemental rods. Unfortunately, I don't have a sufficiently old module available to find out one way or the other, and it would probably be a waste of time to determine the answer.
As for the result we wanted, my first instinct is to say that if it's not possible presently, then that was the intended result, but to be honest, I don't recall every facet of our several conversations on the matter. So it could be that they were explicitly excluded, or it could be that they never came up and it was an oversight.
As I write this, I am trying to recall and also reason through whether it's an appropriate thing. Darts and Throwing Axes get bonuses that most ranged weapons do not. In particular, they are automatically Mighty up to the strength bonus of the wielder. That can be a pretty big bonus, especially for characters strong enough to carry a usable collection of throwing axes. Given that bows top out at Mighty +3 in Layonara, and even that with extra work, the potential for +12 guaranteed damage on each throwing axe or dart strike is pretty huge. Darts, throwing axes, shuriken and slings (the latter two not getting the Mighty bonus) can also be used with shields, unlike other ranged weapons, so again, there's a benefit that ranged weapons do not normally possess.
As a matter of mechanical balance (as opposed to the "balance" of similar things getting similar treatment), it seems a decent tradeoff to disallow elemental enhancements for these thrown weapons.
At least that's my initial thoughts. I could be wrong. I'm good with that, but I still lean toward the notion that it is as it was intended. Convince me otherwise.
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Hm, my understanding was that the elemental rods were supposed to work on any stack of ammunition, be it thrown or shot, so I'm curious as well.
Thrown weapons are not "ammunition" by NWN's classifications and are, in fact, a completely different base type, and it is the base types that are used to key the behavior of enhancement rods and their application.
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Prior usage:
As far as what "used" to be possible, you used to be able to apply an elemental damage rod to a stack of darts, but it would destroy the rod (ie, only one use per rod).
Discussion:
I'm gona try off memory to look at damage comparison.
Bow possible damage:
+5 GMW
+8-10 Flame weapon (this is a normal range on my experience)
1d8 Bow
1d8 Arrow
+4 Mighty
1d8 Elemental damage
2d8 Vs. creature damage
Max damage possible for bow = 59
Average damage per bow = 38
Throwing Axes possible damage:
+2 Addy enchantment (assuming addimantium axes)
1d6 Axe
+10 Mighty (assuming 30 str)
Max damage possible for throwing axe = 18
Average damage per throwing axe = 15
Obviously with higher strength the axe numbers change slightly, but by my computations the axes are doing far less damage output than a bow.
Note that I put GMW (greater magic weapon) for the bow, because I don't think you can put gmw on axes...maybe I'm wrong. But bows you can put gmw on, where as axes might have at most a +2 (addy) enchantment. Plus, who's going to put gmw on a stack of axes?
Also, note I put flame weapon for bows. I'm not sure you can put flame on throwing axes, but who would? It's not like flaming your bow. The axes you just pull out on occasion to get the wily wizard on his perch.
Being able to wield a shield and throw does provide a slight AC advantage, but then it really depends on the char. build and some archers have pretty high AC too. Really, the guy throwing the axes isn't too concerned about AC in the rare times he decides to pull out his throwers..he just wants to hit something at range he can't get to.
The axe thrower is very weighed down by carrying all those axes...to the point that I know of nobody that carries them. The bow guy can carry as many arrows as he likes because they weigh nothing.
The arrow stacks are 500, whereas the axe stacks are only 50 I think..so much less bang for buck.
The arrow guys, as mentioned before, get special "vs" damage which is pretty neat.
The arrow guys can carry a wide assortment of different types of bows and arrows for different situations, whereas the axe thrower won't be able to because of weight issues.
If the axe guys are only going to carry a small stack of throwing axes for rare times they want to launch a ranged attack, it would be nice to have some axes that did more than base physical damage.
There is also rp reasons why some characters won't use a bow (some dwarves come to mind). So, those char's can't really choose and are stuck with axes.
That's all I can think of now, but I appreiate you looking into it. If any others see something that might add to this discussion, please feel free to jump in...I'm sure I missed some points.
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Unless it were a specific built character using thrown weapons they would never take "Point Blank Shot" Feat thus suffering a -4 on all "ranged attacks" within melee range. The only time a weapon chucker would get the bonus of using a shield they will be taking a penalty at the same time. So that should be considered in this equation as well.
IMO that right there negates any bonus from being able to use a shield while throwing weapons. Cause if they are far away... who cares if you have the shield on or not right?
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Update:
Did some testing with Tralek. Flame weapon does not work on throwing axes. GMW does work on throwing axes. Confirmed they only stack at 50. So, who's going to keep casting GMW on each stack of 50 each time they go through them? So, in reality the bow guys gets the flame weapon and gmw, where the throwing axe guy doesn't.
Also, bow guys also get Negative Energy damage if they use strige arrows. This is a very difficult damage type to resist, and a major plus for bow guys.
Just a reminder, a 500 stack of arrows weighs in at 0, whereas 10 50-stacks of throwing axes weighs in at 500lbs.
Also, please remember the bow guy who is dexterity built gets to use his dex for his attack bonus, where the strength built axe thrower can't use strength for attack bonus and must use dexterity too...so his attack bonus will suffer.
Add Arcane Archer to the mix, and the bow guy really is cooking now. No such thing for axe throwers.
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Arcane Axe Thrower PrC ... we need one!
So thrown Axes, and Darts get the damage bonus from your STR (call it how hard you throw them), but their AB (call it your accuracy) is based off your DEX?
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Surprisingly, the only real difference between darts and throwing axes are an almost insignificant difference in damage and a huge weight difference. Darts do 1d4 compared to the 1d6 that throwing axes offer, but throwing axes are 10 times as heavy which limits their viability as a primary weapon. And that difference is negligible if you take strength bonus into account. I'm pretty sure you can't cast keen on throwing axes, so them being slashing weapons doesn't offer much either.
I used to always carry a stack of Pyrtechonite throwing axes on Hardragh though, but at some point I got that Shadons Trapster bow or something and the difference was just ridiculous so I pawned them all. And that was before the new training ability with bows.
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Agreed Filatus on darts vs axes. The one thing I'd add is that RP wise throwing axes seem more suitable for dwarves (and maybe others like barbarians). Also, if the titanium or silver (extra slashing damage) could also be added to a stack of darts/axes, the darts would be more favorable because the darts being piercing, if GMW was cast on the darts it would stack with the T/S (slashing). Whereas the axes being slashing, the T/S would not stack and would conflict with the GMW. Sorry if that sounded messy, but best I could do this late. But really not sure who'd cast gmw on a stack of 50 throwers anyways.
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A few suggestions/comments:
1) Do not make this into another "bow envy" thread. They're different weapons, always will be. This applies also to bringing in things like Arcane Archers into the mix of discussing whether or not elementally enhancing thrown weapons is appropriate. It simply isn't. Arcane Archers are supposed to be better at what they are than Joe Bow User. That right there is no comparison. Comparing them further to an axe-thrower is even less of a meaningful comparison.
2) Adding something like vs. Creature damage into the balance discussion is not helpful. It's a special case and should be treated like one, not like the norm.
3) Flame weapon maxes out at 1d4+8, or 9-12 points of damage and that is from a level 40 caster. I know you and your brother have characters that hit that upper limit, and there are a handful of other casters who have, but 99% of this server (myself included) will likely never see bonuses like that. Using a level 20 "norm" as a point of comparison in this discussion is far more reasonable.
4) using a level 20 STR build, it would not be difficult for such a character to have a 32 or greater STR (assumes 18 STR at level 0 and all attribute increases put into STR to level 20 and a full set of +3 jewelry). A single buff would round out the strength increase to the +13 range easily.
5) The guaranteed extra damage from the uncapped Mighty bonus and GMW should not be discounted. Even if we eliminate GMW (since it applies to both thrown and launched weapons), having a guaranteed amount of damage should not be discounted over all the other variables. To put this another way, something that does 1d8 damage will usually consistently do less damage over time than something that does 6 points of damage every strike. Guaranteed damage beats rolling the dice every time.
6) Who would cast GMW on a stack of axes? The same person who would apply an elemental rod or who would cast Flame Weapon on them, were it possible. Think about it. *grins* On the same note, if you're going to quote RP reasons for using throwing axes, then you should accept RP reasons for casting GMW upon them. Not all character decisions are mechanical.
7) Regarding the ability to use a shield...first, one should not make assumptions on whether or not someone has taken any given feat, as how people build their characters is different with each individual, and sometimes with each character. Second, we all know that ranged attacks will draw aggro (i.e. monster swarm). While the primary target of an axe-thrower may remained engaged in melee with another party member, other creatures may still come around and attack the thrower. That extra AC bonus can help protect the thrower while he distracts the main target. We all know what creature AI does when it can't decide between two sources of damage...To put it plainly, it attacks less.
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Alternatively, I'm open to the idea of allowing Flame Weapon and maybe Keen Edge to be cast on throwing axes to join GMW. I'm also open to the idea of reducing their weight and increasing stack size, both within reason of course.
Incidentally, the only reason why a stack of arrows weighs 0lbs is because Bioware's smallest weight interval is 0.1lbs, so that minor little change would make a stack of 500 arrows weigh 50lbs. That might be realistic, but we throw realism out the window when people carry multiple stacks of 500 arrows in their packs. In truth, 500 arrows is an armload...literally...but then most adventurers seem to carry a small storage shed on their backs. Anyway, allowing stacks of 500 "weightless" throwing axes won't be in the cards, but as I implied above, this isn't (and can't be) about making thrown weapons equal to arrows. As I said, they're different weapons for many reasons.
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I dont see how adding an average of 4.5 element damage (that's if you add a 1d8 rod) to a thrown axe, or dart is going to throw the world of balance. Also remember adding the elemental damage WILL INCREASE the level requirement to use the things (just as it does for arrows).
I would also be for reducing the weight (of axes) and increasing the stack size to say 100. Cause like D said much realism is tossed out the window with ammunition
So.... Yes you could use the element (and/or silver or Titanium) But it wont go as far.
1 Rod coats 5000 arrows
1 Rod would coat 1000 axes. (if stacks were raised to 100)
Don't darts stack higher than 50 already?
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Thanks Dorg for being open to reducing the weight of axes and increacing stack size. I really don't think being able to put an elemental damage rod on a stack of axes is going to throw things outa balance *nods to G*. Maybe we'd see some characters use them then, and not have everyone shooting bows. Would make the dedicated archers stand out a bit more.
Keen edge and flame would also be a nice boost to the axes for those axe enthusiasts.
Flame weapon maxes out at 1d4+8, or 9-12 points of damage and that is from a level 40 caster. I know you and your brother have characters that hit that upper limit, and there are a handful of other casters who have, but 99% of this server (myself included) will likely never see bonuses like that.
Tralek's Flame Weapon does 8-11 fire damage, Connor's does 9-12....Welcome to the 1%Club! *grins*
When we're talking about the "balance" of putting elemental on axes..well that's a pretty complex discussion with many different angles on builds, spells and items. That said, I don't think discussing Arcane Archer is too far fetched. "Vs" Damage also need to come in, because you can get 2d8 and it can be negative damage. If you know your enemy, its pretty easy to select the right arrow. I think it all needs to be thrown into the mash-pit.
I agree the constant damage from uncapped mighty of axes is better than a dice roll, but bows can get up to +4 mighty as well. Add that to all the bow dice rolls, and well it out matches the axes damage wise. As an aside, if you're going to put 18 pts of str at start up and go all str after, good luck hitting anything with your axes based on your dex score.
Shields don't really help much at range, but are nice once the enemy closes. Both an axe wielder and a bow guy can "put their shields up" and sword once it gets mele. I don't see it as a one-sided thing in favor of axe throwers.
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Tralek's Flame Weapon does 8-11 fire damage, Connor's does 9-12....Welcome to the 1%Club! *grins*
I think you have them backwards. Connor is level 34, but his effective caster levels are only 26, so that's 1d4+5 for him.
When we're talking about the "balance" of putting elemental on axes..well that's a pretty complex discussion with many different angles on builds, spells and items. That said, I don't think discussing Arcane Archer is too far fetched. "Vs" Damage also need to come in, because you can get 2d8 and it can be negative damage. If you know your enemy, its pretty easy to select the right arrow. I think it all needs to be thrown into the mash-pit.
Actually no. The more you add the less valid the comparison gets. There's no analog for Arcane Archer for the axe/dart thrower. PrCs are special in a lot of ways, so it becomes rather impossible to make a fair or even equitable comparison between what's possible, in a narrow case, with a PrC's abilities versus a peripherally similar situation where the same PrC does not apply. It is a complex analysis, and adding what's possible on a narrow advancement path with special, tailored abilities only makes it more complex...or more invalid. Either way, it misses the point to say "Arcane Archers can do this and this with arrows, so throwing axes should get better enhancements." It's apples and oranges.
To clarify my first statement in this thread (which I admitted was a simple, initial analysis), it was not to compare what is possible between the two sorts of attacks but rather what should be possible given the base nature of each on its own merits. It is immediately a difficult comparison because they are not the same in any sense except one: they are ranged weapons.
So the question that I have to look at is pretty much this: Do the base properties of throwing axes compared to the base properties of arrows warrant that they should be treated the same? That's not one you or anyone here needs to answer. I am not yet prepared to answer it either. If given all the benefits of arrows, one could easily see how axes and even darts would quickly outstrip bows and arrows. I'm certain that's not what we would want. In that vein, the questions becomes more about where is the line of appropriate bonuses? Don't answer that. I'm just giving you a window into the process.
I agree the constant damage from uncapped mighty of axes is better than a dice roll, but bows can get up to +4 mighty as well. Add that to all the bow dice rolls, and well it out matches the axes damage wise.
Through crafting, the highest is Mighty +3 with the addition of compound parts added to a finished bow. If there's a drop with Mighty +4, that's a different matter, but it's also not going to be as common (hopefully) and it's probably a high-level item. It's important to look at more than just post-Epic builds when thinking about this stuff. A level 1 Fighter with an 18 STR could pick up copper throwing axes and have a Mighty +3 weapon right out of the gate. A Level 1 Fighter built as an archer could likewise pick up a Hickory Longbow but adding Mighty +3 to that bow means the archer can't use it until level 5, and his STR modifier may likely not be +3. Up on the other end of the scale, in the 30+ levels, it flips around presently, given all the goodies that can be put onto bows and arrows. I do recognize that, so don't think I don't, but I mention this to illustrate that balancing starts at level 1, not level 20 or 30.
As an aside, if you're going to put 18 pts of str at start up and go all str after, good luck hitting anything with your axes based on your dex score.
Maybe, maybe not. A half-orc gets a +2 racial bonus to STR that does not count against the +12 max (since it's a base race), leaving points to put into DEX should a person want to. In the lower-to-middle levels, it's not as hard to hit things that are level appropriate. As one gains levels, the availability of equipment with ability bonuses, artifacts like Tomes of Strength and better buffs in general make it possible to have a really bulked out character (half-orc or not) with high STR and reasonable DEX. Add onto that Epic feats like Great Strength or Great Dexterity can tip this up even further.
Shields don't really help much at range, but are nice once the enemy closes. Both an axe wielder and a bow guy can "put their shields up" and sword once it gets mele. I don't see it as a one-sided thing in favor of axe throwers.
They can help if the enemy is using ranged weapons, and while an archer can put up his shield, he can't use his bow then. An axe thrower can do both.
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Side note:
I noticed that Mithril Throwing Axes (yes, they exist and are craftable) have an 80% weight reduction, whereas Adamantium has none. That's a pretty significant difference, and they actually take fewer ingots to make vs. Adamantium.
Anyway, I mention this as there are clearly multiple avenues of potential improvements.
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Not trying to be picky but one of your comparisons is flawed D. In comparing two level 1 characters one with 18 STR and tossing axes. This IS possible in Layo. But a level 1 using a Hickory bow with Mighty 3 is not. Mighty 3 would elevate the level to equip of the Hickory bow far beyond level 1. In that respect it isnt a fair comparison for the Layo module.
I swear Im not looking for a fight here... just saying this comparison is not possible within Layo.
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Why not start out with a across the board weight reduction and stack increase. Id recommend doing a 60% reduction and double the stacks to 100. For all thrown axes.
See how that does and then judge if more is needed. I don't that that is "too big" of a 1st step.
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Not trying to be picky but one of your comparisons is flawed D. In comparing two level 1 characters one with 18 STR and tossing axes. This IS possible in Layo. But a level 1 using a Hickory bow with Mighty 3 is not. Mighty 3 would elevate the level to equip of the Hickory bow far beyond level 1. In that respect it isnt a fair comparison for the Layo module.
I swear Im not looking for a fight here... just saying this comparison is not possible within Layo.
heh...I did say it's not possible for the level 1 archer to have the Mighty +3 bow.
A Level 1 Fighter built as an archer could likewise pick up a Hickory Longbow but adding Mighty +3 to that bow means the archer can't use it until level 5...
The point I was making there was that there are tangible and mathematical advantages at lower levels to having what amounts to a "free" Mighty weapon. I also admitted that that advantage diminishes and reverses at higher levels. A STR buff spell cast on that same Level 1 Fighter could bump him up, if temporarily, to a Mighty +4 or +5 without much trouble, especially if the buff came from a mid-to-high-level caster.
It's fair and appropriate because bonuses will apply across the board, not just for the upper levels. Again, balance starts at level 1, not level 20 or 30. The whole picture gets looked at to see how it works out overall, not just in certain cases.
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Why not start out with a across the board weight reduction and stack increase. Id recommend doing a 60% reduction and double the stacks to 100. For all thrown axes.
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That would make Mithril axes heavier, actually. Also, by general convention, the higher-level goods tend to have the greater weight reduction (usually, not in all cases).
Anyway, some variant on that would still be reasonable, and it's already a consideration.
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Most copper weapons also carry 80% reduction too, I think.
At anyrate... thanks for considering the changes. Im a bow guy and even I think that the thrown axes are held back... by stack size and weight. Darts, not so much weight the issue but stack size (if they too are 50, I swear those mithril darts stack higher already)
A malar bag would help... but thats still 50 pounds (with current axe stack size) once you equip a stack.
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I think you have them backwards. Connor is level 34, but his effective caster levels are only 26, so that's 1d4+5 for him.
Well, the thing about Spellswords is they are gifted at flame weapon. The normal flame weapon computation is 1d4 + CstrLvl/5, so 1d4 + 7 for Tralek (Lvl 35 caster), and 1d4 + 5 for Connor (Lvl 26 caster). But, Spellswords also add their SS caster level on top of that, so Connor get 3 caster levels for his 5 SS levels. So, Connor ends up with flame weapon 1d4 +5 + 3 (9-12) and Tralek gets 8-11.
Mithril Throwing Axes? It takes 20 nuggets of mithril and two shafts of yew to make 25 mithril throwing axes. A hasted fighter would throw all his axes in five rounds. With the high level of ingredients and little output...I don't see this as workable. Addy is a bit better because its usually easier to get, but still, 27 nuggets for 25 axes? Arrows are by far much easier and less costly to make in bulk...I don't think there's any argument there.
To get back to my original thinking on this...My vision was to be able to carry a small stack of throwing axes with elemental on them for those limited times a ranged attack may be necessary. Would be neat to have a stack of special axes in your pack.
I don't see the axe thrower getting overbalanced by elemental, but if he was an uber-str build it gets a bit closer. Even so, I still think gmw and fire (can't be cast on axes) give edge to bows based on current stack sizes; and I really think the "vs" damage has to come to play...but now I'm going in circles.
I really like your idea of increasing the stack size and reducing weight. That's the main reason nobody uses them.
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If the stack size goes up, that too would take some of the sting out of making Mithril throwing axes... if it yielded 100 per try (or more?) instead of 25. :)
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Well, the thing about Spellswords is they are gifted at flame weapon. The normal flame weapon computation is 1d4 + CstrLvl/5, so 1d4 + 7 for Tralek (Lvl 35 caster), and 1d4 + 5 for Connor (Lvl 26 caster). But, Spellswords also add their SS caster level on top of that, so Connor get 3 caster levels for his 5 SS levels. So, Connor ends up with flame weapon 1d4 +5 + 3 (9-12) and Tralek gets 8-11.
I'm not trying to get into a debate on character builds here, but your math is off.
Connor is a 23rd level Sorcerer with 5 Spellsword levels. He gets a caster level boost for levels 1, 3 and 5 of Spellsword, taking his effective caster level up to 26. Since Flame Weapon is 1d4 + 1/5 caster levels, that puts him at 1d4+5. Even if he were a level 26 Sorcerer with 5 Spellsword levels on top of that, the increase in caster level would put him up at level 29, and he'd still be at 1d4+5. Your additional +3 there is faulty and false in a couple different ways.
For full disclosure, Spellswords do have Imbue, which starts at 1d6 and goes up to 1d8 and eventually 2d6 but with no additional bonuses for caster levels or Spellsword levels. As far as I know, it only works on melee weapons besides. In that, I don't believe this ability is relevant to the discussion overall...I just thought I'd include it.
Mithril Throwing Axes? It takes 20 nuggets of mithril and two shafts of yew to make 25 mithril throwing axes. A hasted fighter would throw all his axes in five rounds. With the high level of ingredients and little output...I don't see this as workable. Addy is a bit better because its usually easier to get, but still, 27 nuggets for 25 axes? Arrows are by far much easier and less costly to make in bulk...I don't think there's any argument there.
No argument. I mentioned it for the weight reduction and as a point of interest, giving further support for the idea of reducing weight and/or increasing stack sizes. Big picture!
To get back to my original thinking on this...My vision was to be able to carry a small stack of throwing axes with elemental on them for those limited times a ranged attack may be necessary. Would be neat to have a stack of special axes in your pack.
While I'm responding to you, I'll ask this of any potential throwing axe users:
Are you considering throwing axes to be a secondary weapon or a primary?
This too is kind of integral to the decision process. Archers tend to use bows and arrows as their primary weapon, falling back to melee only when necessary. Would it be the same for axe throwers? I kind of suspect not, even with a more capable and accessible throwing axe given a collection of factors. It sounds like for you the throwing axe is a special-case weapon.
More on this later...
I don't see the axe thrower getting overbalanced by elemental, but if he was an uber-str build it gets a bit closer. Even so, I still think gmw and fire (can't be cast on axes) give edge to bows based on current stack sizes; and I really think the "vs" damage has to come to play...but now I'm going in circles.
"Vs." damage comes into play when you happen to be fighting that particular creature or creature type. In that respect, a "vs." weapon should be better than a generic weapon; that's the whole point. However, looking at the big picture, the potential for "vs." damage in a narrower scope does not really help the overall discussion of how throwing axes perform in a more general sense. The only way in which it would become relevant is if we were going to make axes like arrows in the sense that there's all those different varieties with "vs." damage, but we just can't do that without significant sacrifices. So, since that's off the table, to make a reasonable comparison, we have to compare a more generic case.
I really like your idea of increasing the stack size and reducing weight. That's the main reason nobody uses them.
Understood.
If the stack size goes up, that too would take some of the sting out of making Mithril throwing axes... if it yielded 100 per try (or more?) instead of 25. :)
Yep, and that was exactly my point.
Personally, I think if throwing axes and darts were given all the benefits of arrows, they'd overtake arrows. At first glance, I don't think I see a problem with adding Flame Weapon/Darkfire to the mix. The question then becomes: "What about the rest?"
And that is the real crux of the matter. I could make them easier to make and/or increase the yield, especially for the upper recipes. That would make them more plentiful and used more often surely. Coupled with a weight reduction, people could carry more. I could make them elementally-enhanceable, but perhaps keep the stack size as it is now, thereby making it more "expensive" to enhance throwing axes (they are bigger and heavier than arrows, afterall).
It gets back to how one would use throwing axes if they were changed. Thinking not about how you use them now because of how they are, but rather how you would like to use them...
Do you want to be able to use them more? If so, making them lighter/bigger stack/more yield from crafting/Flame Weapon + GMW may be more appropriate. This could be coupled with perhaps allowing Enhancement rods to apply to a stack one time, giving one the choice of some specialty axes for special situations. If you want more punch for the occasional use, then keeping weight and/or stack size and/or crafting yield the same while allowing greater enhancement potential (i.e. more uses for a single rod) may be more appropriate.
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Bow possible damage:
+5 GMW Yes
+8-10 Flame weapon (this is a normal range on my experience) no longer possible or is that only on trained bows that it's no longer possible??
1d8 Bow yes
1d8 Arrow yes (unless trained then it's 1d6)
+4 Mighty (crafted bows max is +3)
1d8 Elemental damage (only on arrows that are not used on a trained bow)
2d8 Vs. creature damage (only if not on a trained bow. Trained bows are 2d6 and it replace the base 1d6 of the arrow)
Max damage possible for bow = 59
Average damage per bow = 38
Some precision here.
So if it's not a trained bow then in reality it's a max of 41 for untrained bows. 28 for trained bows which can only be done with crafted bows I think.
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I'm not trying to get into a debate on character builds here, but your math is off.
Connor is a 23rd level Sorcerer with 5 Spellsword levels. He gets a caster level boost for levels 1, 3 and 5 of Spellsword, taking his effective caster level up to 26. Since Flame Weapon is 1d4 + 1/5 caster levels, that puts him at 1d4+5. Even if he were a level 26 Sorcerer with 5 Spellsword levels on top of that, the increase in caster level would put him up at level 29, and he'd still be at 1d4+5. Your additional +3 there is faulty and false in a couple different ways.
I want to direct you to a previous post (http://forums.layonara.com/bug-reports/284591-potential-bug-flame-weapon.html)where I already discussed this and the related post linked within. Spellswords do get a boost and we are pretty sure its the SS's casterlevel bonus (+1 at lvl 1, 3, 5, etc). Break Connor out and dust off his sword with some flame weapon, hit some things (maybe Fehriel will volunteer O.o ) and you'll eventually get a 12 on fire damage.
I like you're thinking on the throwing axes. It's a good question on whether the axes will be used as a primary or secondary weapon. I'd say most would use as secondary, but you can't count out the few that might want to build an axe thrower. Looks like you got at least these variables to shuffle: flame weapon on axes, stack size, weight, crafted axe stack output, elemental-none, elemental-one-use and elemental-10-uses. This is obviously your choice on what to add and what not to.
If it was up to me, I'd let flame be cast on axes. I would increase the stack to 100 (also for craftable output). I would set the weight to .1/lb per axe, or 10lbs for stack of 100. I would allow elemental-one-use (rod breaks after application). For mithril axes (80% weight reduction), not sure what putting the weight to .1/lb would do, but my guess is it would make them weight 0. Pretty neat, plus you get the +3. Even if the mithril axes are not affected by this and come in heavier (20lbs/stack of 100) they still get the +3 if someone wants to go there.
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*Fehriel looks to the right then the left to those assembled* hmmm me? *passes his forearm on his forehead for some reason*
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I want to direct you to a previous post (http://forums.layonara.com/bug-reports/284591-potential-bug-flame-weapon.html)where I already discussed this and the related post linked within. Spellswords do get a boost and we are pretty sure its the SS's casterlevel bonus (+1 at lvl 1, 3, 5, etc). Break Connor out and dust off his sword with some flame weapon, hit some things (maybe Fehriel will volunteer O.o ) and you'll eventually get a 12 on fire damage.
You know what?
I had this whole analysis typed up with supporting math taken straight from the code. I'm not posting it because...In going through the code carefully and digging through the thread and linked threads, I have discovered that there is, in fact, a double application of Spellsword (and other bonus-caster-level PrC) levels that should not be there. It's doing it once and dividing by 5 to get the + modifier, which it then passes to the OnHit: Cast Spell property. When the OnHit property is triggered, it does it again, but this time those bonus levels are added on top of the + modifier (for Connor's case, his Sorcerer levels would give him 1d4+4, his Spellsword levels would boost that to 1d4+5, and the OnHit bug would boost that to 1d4 + 8...making you right in observation but the end result still wrong), and so Spellswords and Palemasters get extra bonuses on Flame Weapon that they should not, and likewise, Sacred Fists will likely get a bonus on Darkfire that they should not.
So...this will get fixed so that it's in line with what it should be.
Unfortunately this means that you still have to use my lower numbers when bringing Darkfire and Flame Weapon into the mix in this discussion. *winks*
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I really don't think you need to change it...I think its pretty cool that Spellswords get the lil-boost in fire damage...they are a very special PRC that is supposed to be able to imbue weapons magically like no other.
This is what I said before:
Well, the thing about Spellswords is they are gifted at flame weapon. The normal flame weapon computation is 1d4 + CstrLvl/5, so 1d4 + 7 for Tralek (Lvl 35 caster), and 1d4 + 5 for Connor (Lvl 26 caster). But, Spellswords also add their SS caster level on top of that, so Connor get 3 caster levels for his 5 SS levels. So, Connor ends up with flame weapon 1d4 +5 + 3 (9-12) and Tralek gets 8-11.
You said:
making you right in observation but the end result still wrong
How is my "end result still wrong"? I think I was dead-on ;)
Compare my computation above, to yours:
It's doing it once and dividing by 5 to get the + modifier, which it then passes to the OnHit: Cast Spell property. When the OnHit property is triggered, it does it again, but this time those bonus levels are added on top of the + modifier (for Connor's case, his Sorcerer levels would give him 1d4+4, his Spellsword levels would boost that to 1d4+5, and the OnHit bug would boost that to 1d4 + 8...making you right in observation but the end result still wrong),
We both end up with Connor getting 9-12. *winks* But now we're getting dangerously close to a powder-puff match.
Anyways, again, don't think you need to change Spellswords flame weapon. It's not a huge advantage, and it's appropriate I think. For the palemasters or sacred fists...I'm not sure if it's appropriate or if it gets more unbalanced with them...or if you could even piecemeal it just for SS's.
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I really don't think you need to change it...I think its pretty cool that Spellswords get the lil-boost in fire damage...they are a very special PRC that is supposed to be able to imbue weapons magically like no other.
This is what I said before:
You said:
How is my "end result still wrong"? I think I was dead-on ;)
Compare my computation above, to yours:
We both end up with Connor getting 9-12. *winks* But now we're getting dangerously close to a powder-puff match.
Yes, what I'm saying is Connor should not be in the 9-12 range but rather the 6-9 range. Thus, you are correct in observation of what is currently, with a bug in place, but still incorrect as to what was designed and intended.
*throws a flaming Mighty +10 cotton ball*
Anyways, again, don't think you need to change Spellswords flame weapon. It's not a huge advantage, and it's appropriate I think. For the palemasters or sacred fists...I'm not sure if it's appropriate or if it gets more unbalanced with them...or if you could even piecemeal it just for SS's.
Your opinion is noted and understood, but I'm still fixing it. *smiles*
Spellswords honestly don't need the additional boost. Depending on the level, a Spellsword's levels can easily bump up the damage on Flame Weapon by +1. It may not sound like much, but cumulatively it adds up, especially against foes with fire vulnerability. Beyond that, a Spellsword can start with a weapon that has an Electrical enhancement on it, cast Flame Weapon and then use Imbue: Cold and have a pretty heavily-enhanced weapon.
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Now having a vested interest in T hrowing Axes (my new dwarf Koigan Axechucker, who's only ranged weapon will be axes).
Any chance of an update on the issues of....
Stack size? (increasing)
Weight of each Axe? (decreasing)
For starters current copper axes dont offer the -80% weight reduction that (almost) everything else copper offers.
Adding Element rods to Throwing axes? (making this possible)
EDIT Cost on ranged merchant? (going down). Presently 99, arrows, 99 bolts, all cost 1 gp. 25 Suriken, and 25 darts cost 1 gp. 25 throwing axes cost 102 gp!!! (at Centers ranged merchant). Why so much more? Granted my character is already working on making his own... but still seems to be a bit out of skew doesnt it?
Thanks!
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Giving this thread a nudge to see if any official decision was made on throwing axe, weight, stack size, being able to use element rods on them.
thanks.
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There's something coming...