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Author Topic: Elemental on Throwing?  (Read 1077 times)

davidhoff

Elemental on Throwing?
« on: February 13, 2012, 06:50:32 pm »
Hello,

I'm not sure if it was an intended result, but you can no longer apply an elemental damage rod to throwing weapons (ie, darts, throwing axes, etc).  I know some work was done on bows a while back and this may be the result of that.  Is this the result you wanted?
 
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miltonyorkcastle

Re: Elemental on Throwing?
« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2012, 07:56:00 pm »
Hm, my understanding was that the elemental rods were supposed to work on any stack of ammunition, be it thrown or shot, so I'm curious as well.
 

Dorganath

Re: Elemental on Throwing?
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2012, 08:34:31 pm »
My only uncertainty to this point is that I never tried it, however...

...I don't remember it being possible to enhance thrown weapons with elemental rods. Unfortunately, I don't have a sufficiently old module available to find out one way or the other, and it would probably be a waste of time to determine the answer.

As for the result we wanted, my first instinct is to say that if it's not possible presently, then that was the intended result, but to be honest, I don't recall every facet of our several conversations on the matter. So it could be that they were explicitly excluded, or it could be that they never came up and it was an oversight.

As I write this, I am trying to recall and also reason through whether it's an appropriate thing.  Darts and Throwing Axes get bonuses that most ranged weapons do not. In particular, they are automatically Mighty up to the strength bonus of the wielder. That can be a pretty big bonus, especially for characters strong enough to carry a usable collection of throwing axes.  Given that bows top out at Mighty +3 in Layonara, and even that with extra work, the potential for +12 guaranteed damage on each throwing axe or dart strike is pretty huge.  Darts, throwing axes, shuriken and slings (the latter two not getting the Mighty bonus) can also be used with shields, unlike other ranged weapons, so again, there's a benefit that ranged weapons do not normally possess.

As a matter of mechanical balance (as opposed to the "balance" of similar things getting similar treatment), it seems a decent tradeoff to disallow elemental enhancements for these thrown weapons.

At least that's my initial thoughts.  I could be wrong. I'm good with that, but I still lean toward the notion that it is as it was intended. Convince me otherwise.
 

Dorganath

Re: Elemental on Throwing?
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2012, 08:36:03 pm »
Quote from: miltonyorkcastle
Hm, my understanding was that the elemental rods were supposed to work on any stack of ammunition, be it thrown or shot, so I'm curious as well.

Thrown weapons are not "ammunition" by NWN's classifications and are, in fact, a completely different base type, and it is the base types that are used to key the behavior of enhancement rods and their application.
 

davidhoff

Re: Elemental on Throwing?
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2012, 09:31:45 pm »
Prior usage:

As far as what "used" to be possible, you used to be able to apply an elemental damage rod to a stack of darts, but it would destroy the rod (ie, only one use per rod).

Discussion:

I'm gona try off memory to look at damage comparison.

Bow possible damage:
+5  GMW
+8-10  Flame weapon (this is a normal range on my experience)
1d8  Bow
1d8  Arrow
+4  Mighty
1d8  Elemental damage
2d8  Vs. creature damage
Max damage possible for bow = 59
Average damage per bow = 38

Throwing Axes possible damage:
+2  Addy enchantment (assuming addimantium axes)
1d6  Axe
+10  Mighty (assuming 30 str)
Max damage possible for throwing axe = 18
Average damage per throwing axe = 15

Obviously with higher strength the axe numbers change slightly, but by my computations the axes are doing far less damage output than a bow.

Note that I put GMW (greater magic weapon) for the bow, because I don't think you can put gmw on axes...maybe I'm wrong.  But bows you can put gmw on, where as axes might have at most a +2 (addy) enchantment.  Plus, who's going to put gmw on a stack of axes?

Also, note I put flame weapon for bows.  I'm not sure you can put flame on throwing axes, but who would?  It's not like flaming your bow.  The axes you just pull out on occasion to get the wily wizard on his perch.

Being able to wield a shield and throw does provide a slight AC advantage, but then it really depends on the char. build and some archers have pretty high AC too.  Really, the guy throwing the axes isn't too concerned about AC in the rare times he decides to pull out his throwers..he just wants to hit something at range he can't get to.  

The axe thrower is very weighed down by carrying all those axes...to the point that I know of nobody that carries them.  The bow guy can carry as many arrows as he likes because they weigh nothing.

The arrow stacks are 500, whereas the axe stacks are only 50 I think..so much less bang for buck.

The arrow guys, as mentioned before, get special "vs" damage which is pretty neat.

The arrow guys can carry a wide assortment of different types of bows and arrows for different situations, whereas the axe thrower won't be able to because of weight issues.

If the axe guys are only going to carry a small stack of throwing axes for rare times they want to launch a ranged attack, it would be nice to have some axes that did more than base physical damage.

There is also rp reasons why some characters won't use a bow (some dwarves come to mind).  So, those char's can't really choose and are stuck with axes.

That's all I can think of now, but I appreiate you looking into it.  If any others see something that might add to this discussion, please feel free to jump in...I'm sure I missed some points.
 

Guardian 452

Re: Elemental on Throwing?
« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2012, 10:57:00 pm »
Unless it were a specific built character using thrown weapons they would never take "Point Blank Shot" Feat thus suffering a -4 on all "ranged attacks" within melee range. The only time a weapon chucker would get the bonus of using a shield they will be taking a penalty at the same time. So that should be considered in this equation as well.

IMO that right there negates any bonus from being able to use a shield while throwing weapons. Cause if they are far away... who cares if you have the shield on or not right?
 

davidhoff

Re: Elemental on Throwing?
« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2012, 11:12:30 pm »
Update:

Did some testing with Tralek.  Flame weapon does not work on throwing axes.  GMW does work on throwing axes.  Confirmed they only stack at 50.  So, who's going to keep casting GMW on each stack of 50 each time they go through them?  So, in reality the bow guys gets the flame weapon and gmw, where the throwing axe guy doesn't.

Also, bow guys also get Negative Energy damage if they use strige arrows.  This is a very difficult damage type to resist, and a major plus for bow guys.

Just a reminder, a 500 stack of arrows weighs in at 0, whereas 10 50-stacks of throwing axes weighs in at 500lbs.

Also, please remember the bow guy who is dexterity built gets to use his dex for his attack bonus, where the strength built axe thrower can't use strength for attack bonus and must use dexterity too...so his attack bonus will suffer.

Add Arcane Archer to the mix, and the bow guy really is cooking now.  No such thing for axe throwers.
 

Guardian 452

Re: Elemental on Throwing?
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2012, 11:44:31 pm »
Arcane Axe Thrower PrC ... we need one!

So thrown Axes, and Darts get the damage bonus from your STR (call it how hard you throw them), but their AB (call it your accuracy) is based off your DEX?


.
 

Filatus

Re: Elemental on Throwing?
« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2012, 12:01:59 am »
Surprisingly, the only real difference between darts and throwing axes are an almost insignificant difference in damage and a huge weight difference. Darts do 1d4 compared to the 1d6 that throwing axes offer, but throwing axes are 10 times as heavy which limits their viability as a primary weapon. And that difference is negligible if you take strength bonus into account. I'm pretty sure you can't cast keen on throwing axes, so them being slashing weapons doesn't offer much either.

I used to always carry a stack of Pyrtechonite throwing axes on Hardragh though, but at some point I got that Shadons Trapster bow or something and the difference was just ridiculous so I pawned them all. And that was before the new training ability with bows.
 

davidhoff

Re: Elemental on Throwing?
« Reply #9 on: February 14, 2012, 02:09:56 am »
Agreed Filatus on darts vs axes.  The one thing I'd add is that RP wise throwing axes seem more suitable for dwarves (and maybe others like barbarians).  Also, if the titanium or silver (extra slashing damage) could also be added to a stack of darts/axes, the darts would be more favorable because the darts being piercing, if GMW was cast on the darts it would stack with the T/S (slashing).  Whereas the axes being slashing, the T/S would not stack and would conflict with the GMW.  Sorry if that sounded messy, but best I could do this late.  But really not sure who'd cast gmw on a stack of 50 throwers anyways.
 

Dorganath

Re: Elemental on Throwing?
« Reply #10 on: February 14, 2012, 08:45:07 am »
A few suggestions/comments:

1) Do not make this into another "bow envy" thread.  They're different weapons, always will be. This applies also to bringing in things like Arcane Archers into the mix of discussing whether or not elementally enhancing thrown weapons is appropriate. It simply isn't.  Arcane Archers are supposed to be better at what they are than Joe Bow User. That right there is no comparison. Comparing them further to an axe-thrower is even less of a meaningful comparison.

2) Adding something like vs. Creature damage into the balance discussion is not helpful. It's a special case and should be treated like one, not like the norm.

3) Flame weapon maxes out at 1d4+8, or 9-12 points of damage and that is from a level 40 caster. I know you and your brother have characters that hit that upper limit, and there are a handful of other casters who have, but 99% of this server (myself included) will likely never see bonuses like that. Using a level 20 "norm" as a point of comparison in this discussion is far more reasonable.

4) using a level 20 STR build, it would not be difficult for such a character to have a 32 or greater STR (assumes 18 STR at level 0 and all attribute increases put into STR to level 20 and a full set of +3 jewelry). A single buff would round out the strength increase to the +13 range easily.

5) The guaranteed extra damage from the uncapped Mighty bonus and GMW should not be discounted. Even if we eliminate GMW (since it applies to both thrown and launched weapons), having a guaranteed amount of damage should not be discounted over all the other variables. To put this another way, something that does 1d8 damage will usually consistently do less damage over time than something that does 6 points of damage every strike. Guaranteed damage beats rolling the dice every time.

6) Who would cast GMW on a stack of axes?  The same person who would apply an elemental rod or who would cast Flame Weapon on them, were it possible.  Think about it. *grins* On the same note, if you're going to quote RP reasons for using throwing axes, then you should accept RP reasons for casting GMW upon them. Not all character decisions are mechanical.

7) Regarding the ability to use a shield...first, one should not make assumptions on whether or not someone has taken any given feat, as how people build their characters is different with each individual, and sometimes with each character. Second, we all know that ranged attacks will draw aggro (i.e. monster swarm). While the primary target of an axe-thrower may remained engaged in melee with another party member, other creatures may still come around and attack the thrower. That extra AC bonus can help protect the thrower while he distracts the main target. We all know what creature AI does when it can't decide between two sources of damage...To put it plainly, it attacks less.
 

Dorganath

Re: Elemental on Throwing?
« Reply #11 on: February 14, 2012, 08:56:14 am »
Alternatively, I'm open to the idea of allowing Flame Weapon and maybe Keen Edge to be cast on throwing axes to join GMW. I'm also open to the idea of reducing their weight and increasing stack size, both within reason of course.

Incidentally, the only reason why a stack of arrows weighs 0lbs is because Bioware's smallest weight interval is 0.1lbs, so that minor little change would make a stack of 500 arrows weigh 50lbs. That might be realistic, but we throw realism out the window when people carry multiple stacks of 500 arrows in their packs.  In truth, 500 arrows is an armload...literally...but then most adventurers seem to carry a small storage shed on their backs.  Anyway, allowing stacks of 500 "weightless" throwing axes won't be in the cards, but as I implied above, this isn't (and can't be) about making thrown weapons equal to arrows. As I said, they're different weapons for many reasons.
 

Guardian 452

Re: Elemental on Throwing?
« Reply #12 on: February 14, 2012, 11:12:34 am »
I dont see how adding an average of 4.5 element damage (that's if you add a 1d8 rod) to a thrown axe, or dart is going to throw the world of balance. Also remember adding the elemental damage WILL INCREASE the level requirement to use the things (just as it does for arrows).

I would also be for reducing the weight (of axes) and increasing the stack size to say 100. Cause like D said much realism is tossed out the window with ammunition

So.... Yes you could use the element (and/or silver or Titanium) But it wont go as far.

1 Rod coats 5000 arrows
1 Rod would coat 1000 axes. (if stacks were raised to 100)
Don't darts stack higher than 50 already?

.
 

davidhoff

Re: Elemental on Throwing?
« Reply #13 on: February 14, 2012, 06:36:29 pm »
Thanks Dorg for being open to reducing the weight of axes and increacing stack size.  I really don't think being able to put an elemental damage rod on a stack of axes is going to throw things outa balance *nods to G*.  Maybe we'd see some characters use them then, and not have everyone shooting bows.  Would make the dedicated archers stand out a bit more.

Keen edge and flame would also be a nice boost to the axes for those axe enthusiasts.

Quote
Flame weapon maxes out at 1d4+8, or 9-12 points of damage and that is from a level 40 caster. I know you and your brother have characters that hit that upper limit, and there are a handful of other casters who have, but 99% of this server (myself included) will likely never see bonuses like that.


Tralek's Flame Weapon does 8-11 fire damage, Connor's does 9-12....Welcome to the 1%Club! *grins*

When we're talking about the "balance" of putting elemental on axes..well that's a pretty complex discussion with many different angles on builds, spells and items.  That said, I don't think discussing Arcane Archer is too far fetched.  "Vs" Damage also need to come in, because you can get 2d8 and it can be negative damage.  If you know your enemy, its pretty easy to select the right arrow.  I think it all needs to be thrown into the mash-pit.

I agree the constant damage from uncapped mighty of axes is better than a dice roll, but bows can get up to +4 mighty as well.  Add that to all the bow dice rolls, and well it out matches the axes damage wise.  As an aside, if you're going to put 18 pts of str at start up and go all str after, good luck hitting anything with your axes based on your dex score.

Shields don't really help much at range, but are nice once the enemy closes.  Both an axe wielder and a bow guy can "put their shields up" and sword once it gets mele.  I don't see it as a one-sided thing in favor of axe throwers.
 

Dorganath

Re: Elemental on Throwing?
« Reply #14 on: February 14, 2012, 10:17:43 pm »
Quote from: davidhoff
Tralek's Flame Weapon does 8-11 fire damage, Connor's does 9-12....Welcome to the 1%Club! *grins*

I think you have them backwards. Connor is level 34, but his effective caster levels are only 26, so that's 1d4+5 for him.

Quote
When we're talking about the "balance" of putting elemental on axes..well that's a pretty complex discussion with many different angles on builds, spells and items.  That said, I don't think discussing Arcane Archer is too far fetched.  "Vs" Damage also need to come in, because you can get 2d8 and it can be negative damage.  If you know your enemy, its pretty easy to select the right arrow.  I think it all needs to be thrown into the mash-pit.

Actually no.  The more you add the less valid the comparison gets.   There's no analog for Arcane Archer for the axe/dart thrower. PrCs are special in a lot of ways, so it becomes rather impossible to make a fair or even equitable comparison between what's possible, in a narrow case, with a PrC's abilities versus a peripherally similar situation where the same PrC does not apply.  It is a complex analysis, and adding what's possible on a narrow advancement path with special, tailored abilities only makes it more complex...or more invalid.  Either way, it misses the point to say "Arcane Archers can do this and this with arrows, so throwing axes should get better enhancements." It's apples and oranges.

To clarify my first statement in this thread (which I admitted was a simple, initial analysis), it was not to compare what is possible between the two sorts of attacks but rather what should be possible given the base nature of each on its own merits. It is immediately a difficult comparison because they are not the same in any sense except one: they are ranged weapons.

So the question that I have to look at is pretty much this:  Do the base properties of throwing axes compared to the base properties of arrows warrant that they should be treated the same? That's not one you or anyone here needs to answer.  I am not yet prepared to answer it either.  If given all the benefits of arrows, one could easily see how axes and even darts would quickly outstrip bows and arrows. I'm certain that's not what we would want. In that vein, the questions becomes more about where is the line of appropriate bonuses? Don't answer that. I'm just giving you a window into the process.

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I agree the constant damage from uncapped mighty of axes is better than a dice roll, but bows can get up to +4 mighty as well.  Add that to all the bow dice rolls, and well it out matches the axes damage wise.
Through crafting, the highest is Mighty +3 with the addition of compound parts added to a finished bow.  If there's a drop with Mighty +4, that's a different matter, but it's also not going to be as common (hopefully) and it's probably a high-level item.  It's important to look at more than just post-Epic builds when thinking about this stuff.  A level 1 Fighter with an 18 STR could pick up copper throwing axes and have a Mighty +3 weapon right out of the gate.  A Level 1 Fighter built as an archer could likewise pick up a Hickory Longbow but adding Mighty +3 to that bow means the archer can't use it until level 5, and his STR modifier may likely not be +3.  Up on the other end of the scale, in the 30+ levels, it flips around presently, given all the goodies that can be put onto bows and arrows. I do recognize that, so don't think I don't, but I mention this to illustrate that balancing starts at level 1, not level 20 or 30.

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As an aside, if you're going to put 18 pts of str at start up and go all str after, good luck hitting anything with your axes based on your dex score.

Maybe, maybe not.  A half-orc gets a +2 racial bonus to STR that does not count against the +12 max (since it's a base race), leaving points to put into DEX should a person want to.  In the lower-to-middle levels, it's not as hard to hit things that are level appropriate. As one gains levels, the availability of equipment with ability bonuses, artifacts like Tomes of Strength and better buffs in general make it possible to have a really bulked out character (half-orc or not) with high STR and reasonable DEX. Add onto that Epic feats like Great Strength or Great Dexterity can tip this up even further.

Quote
Shields don't really help much at range, but are nice once the enemy closes.  Both an axe wielder and a bow guy can "put their shields up" and sword once it gets mele.  I don't see it as a one-sided thing in favor of axe throwers.

They can help if the enemy is using ranged weapons, and while an archer can put up his shield, he can't use his bow then.  An axe thrower can do both.
 

Dorganath

Re: Elemental on Throwing?
« Reply #15 on: February 14, 2012, 10:23:40 pm »
Side note:

I noticed that Mithril Throwing Axes (yes, they exist and are craftable) have an 80% weight reduction, whereas Adamantium has none.  That's a pretty significant difference, and they actually take fewer ingots to make vs. Adamantium.

Anyway, I mention this as there are clearly multiple avenues of potential improvements.
 

Guardian 452

Re: Elemental on Throwing?
« Reply #16 on: February 14, 2012, 10:27:47 pm »
Not trying to be picky but one of your comparisons is flawed D. In comparing two level 1 characters one with 18 STR and tossing axes. This IS possible in Layo. But a level 1 using a Hickory bow with Mighty 3 is not. Mighty 3 would elevate the level to equip of the Hickory bow far beyond level 1. In that respect it isnt a fair comparison for the Layo module.

I swear Im not looking for a fight here... just saying this comparison is not possible within Layo.
 

Guardian 452

Re: Elemental on Throwing?
« Reply #17 on: February 14, 2012, 10:34:14 pm »
Why not start out with a across the board weight reduction and stack increase. Id recommend doing a 60% reduction and double the stacks to 100. For all thrown axes.

See how that does and then judge if more is needed. I don't that that is "too big" of a 1st step.

.
 

Dorganath

Re: Elemental on Throwing?
« Reply #18 on: February 14, 2012, 10:44:12 pm »
Quote from: Guardian 452
Not trying to be picky but one of your comparisons is flawed D. In comparing two level 1 characters one with 18 STR and tossing axes. This IS possible in Layo. But a level 1 using a Hickory bow with Mighty 3 is not. Mighty 3 would elevate the level to equip of the Hickory bow far beyond level 1. In that respect it isnt a fair comparison for the Layo module.

I swear Im not looking for a fight here... just saying this comparison is not possible within Layo.

heh...I did say it's not possible for the level 1 archer to have the Mighty +3 bow.

Quote from: myself
A Level 1 Fighter built as an archer could likewise pick up a Hickory  Longbow but adding Mighty +3 to that bow means the archer can't use it  until level 5...

The point I was making there was that there are tangible and mathematical advantages at lower levels to having what amounts to a "free" Mighty weapon. I also admitted that that advantage diminishes and reverses at higher levels. A STR buff spell cast on that same Level 1 Fighter could bump him up, if temporarily, to a Mighty +4 or +5 without much trouble, especially if the buff came from a mid-to-high-level caster.

It's fair and appropriate because bonuses will apply across the board, not just for the upper levels.  Again, balance starts at level 1, not level 20 or 30.  The whole picture gets looked at to see how it works out overall, not just in certain cases.
 

Dorganath

Re: Elemental on Throwing?
« Reply #19 on: February 14, 2012, 10:47:41 pm »
Quote from: Guardian 452
Why not start out with a across the board weight reduction and stack increase. Id recommend doing a 60% reduction and double the stacks to 100. For all thrown axes.
.

That would make Mithril axes heavier, actually. Also, by general convention, the higher-level goods tend to have the greater weight reduction (usually, not in all cases).

Anyway, some variant on that would still be reasonable, and it's already a consideration.
 

 

anything