Frustrated

[Leanthar]

"....I actually think it might as well just be made an actual crossroads that people walk through, rather than hidden away, or have a sign added and the guide lantern be moved outside the area to the place where you turn to get there, so you can see if its lit before going there and seeing for yourself, hehe. But the RP reasons you speak of should be eased there....."

I agree. We should put it right on the road in one of the existing areas (where there is no combat) or stretch the road out and put it in there. Either way, it does better to be on the main road an area to one side of it.

[minerva]

I have sat at Stormcrest for hours in the days since it was added and seen not a soul come by or seen people rush in ..check things out for CNR and things to kill.. see none and leave.

Are members supposed to be able to light the lantern that says someone is available to guide?

[Ioskeha]

Ioskeha - Try the Shack in the crossroads between the two towns. It's not within a cobbled city, just a rural place between them where the guides are supposed to be hired, for hanging out near the stream and campfire and other stuff. Should probably be made a safe rest area. It's still getting settled at the moment I think. I actually think it might as well just be made an actual crossroads that people walk through, rather than hidden away, or have a sign added and the guide lantern be moved outside the area to the place where you turn to get there, so you can see if its lit  before going there and seeing for yourself, hehe. But the RP reasons you speak of should be eased there.

Oh, cool!  Thanks.  Today was my first time playing in over three weeks, so I didn't know that people were starting to gather there.  Someone told me that they had seen people there once before.  When I asked about it this person didn't know if it was just a one time thing or not.

[ShiffDrgnhrt]

What shack?  And what guides?  Im interested....  What are you talking about?

[Laldiien]

Initial Post

What shack?  And what guides?  Im interested....  What are you talking about?

[Leanthar]

@twidget658

".....I took him into a cave (not named for CNR purposes) and he about got his butt handed to him. I found out that the cave only contained greenstone and copper. My character is level 21 and should not be taking such beatings from the things that were in the cave....."

Was that on West? A cave should not be that difficult for west CNR, unless there is something there that I am not aware of at this time. PM me please.

[Tanman]

I never that there was a shack there. I will have to check it out.

[Dorganath]

It was put in with the last update (3.00.3)

[Zergon]

Hello everyone reading this forum thread.
Most of you know me, well probably all of you.
I have either helped you in some way or just sat around and listened, giving advice where appropriate and even talking some of you out of going somewhere you shouldn't.
I know at least half of all the characters that play on layonara in character and at least 1/4 of you OOC.
I play more hours than any of you have time for and I write very little of what I see.
Mostly because I see way more than I care to write about.
Some days you will see me playing, you will log off and do your daily things... and low and behold when you wake up from your sleep... that's right i'm still playing... I think my longest game day was close to 30 hours.
I play a variety of characters, a drow wizard of level 15, a human monk of level 7, and a wemic druid of level 8.
I also build my own modules, write my own scripts and program in more languages than i have fingers to count, and I DM my own servers along with setting up the operating systems and everything else on the machines.
I can truely see the issue from all angles... players... DM's... server admins, scripters, testers, writers, designers.... did i miss anything here?

Personally I got bored with NWN 3 months after i bought and beat the single player version of the game, as i had tore apart every aspect of the game and toolset and written many modules on my own with guides i found all over.
Layonara was found by a real life friend of mine and he got me to play again.  We always had fun with the pen and paper version of D&D i gave it a shot.  After a few months of playing i found i enjoyed the RP experience as much as the bash em slash em unreal 2004 servers i run.
I played a lot of V2 and enjoyed it.  Then came V3 and the tilesets were impressive and the new sounds great to hear.

Well lets get to the point now that you all know a little bit more about me.
V3 has it's issues as well as bugs and the game has it's own problems as well... I hear complaining and complimenting both and of course i do both as well...
It's a role play server indeed but after playing on other servers of the same type I find that layonara is more of a "forced RP" server than a "stressed RP" server.. I see more "fear of the DM's " than i do anything else.
On the other servers i've explored the RP is stressed but not enforced and I see more RP and players taking their time to actually RP than I do on Layonara. This concerns me as Layonara has depth and some of those do not... sure their npc's are more active... (changing of the guard from day and night, night and day spawns blah blah blah) but otherwise the only interesting things there are the other people RP-ing.
Also I see less people worrying about how long their character will last (as there is no permanent death system but other things to discourage stupidity) and less rushing out to kill kill kill with no good reason...
Yes in V3 soloing or even grouping up to accomplish a goal has become almost impossible for a level 1-6 character... and greed has taken over and co-operation seems to have left. Meaningless deaths are all around and good characters have died in vain.

I realize this is a new version and there are bugs... but losing a soul strand to a bug or a bad spawn and trying to prove this is aggravating to say the least. Does anyone test these areas before putting them on the server? and how are they tested... to me (krandor crypts being a huge example) they seem very untested when put out on the server, as i know what it takes to test an area.

As far as role playing durring combat, or in between battles... yeah right!
you try it...
I play a mage and i've heard people say well the clerics can talk durring battle or the mages have time... or quickslot something and use it..
Well my friend you have obviously never played a mage or cleric.
yes i have 36 quickslots... and every one of them taken with a spell wand or helmet of armor 2... mages are one of the hardest things to play on layonara.. i have one quickslot (that i'd rather use for a spell) that is made for passing people in a hurry *Waves and Smiles* and it's a waste of a quickslot
when the lag hits you in the heat of battle and your fighters are all dying and your cleric is typing "Die in the name if Ilsare" and you fall over dead cause she tried to say that and you get soul strand #8 then you tell me that clerics have time... and if they quickslotted it and had to use the radial menu to heal you and missed and got the monster you were fighting ... well enough said...

my point... there are lots of things i would do differently here... though my opinions probably mean nothing...

I'll give the server time to even itself out but because of the CNR issues and DM's scolding higher level characters (leaving out dm names here) for helping lower levels get what they need I'll be playing elsewhere till i see some kind of compromize (hint hint no soul mother till areas are perfected blah blah blah)

'nough said

Chains
Zergon Yxirvain
Slain Tulrar
Rizzir

[ShiffDrgnhrt]

I'm gonna miss you Dude....

I just wanna say that I'm really disheartened to hear some of my fellow players, especial those that I enjoy RPing with, have found Layo to not be as much fun as it has been for them.  I encourage them to keep some Faith for Layo with them, but I understand the problems they mentioned.  I love Role Playing and I'd hate to have a few of my favorite RPers leave due to something stupid in game.

Either way goodluck man.  Send me a line some time.  My email is in m profile.

Peace
<3 Shiff;)

[ycleption]

Havoc, I can sypathize to your viewpoint. I think some things are easier (eg getting aloe) and many things are more difficult (eg. getting salt). People keep saying everyone should explore, find new places for CNR, etc., but personally I'm somewhat scared to explore new places, because of some of the dangerous spawns I've encountered in areas that used to be fairly safe. I really don't envy the team here, who are expected to be able to balance making things challenging, but still fun for less powerfully built characters The DMs here are asking us to help them by submitting bug reports, but quite frankly, who am I to say "place x is a bug because it is too hard for my character." With all the stickies in the bug forum, it's a little intimidating to post something like that, especially because it seems like we're critisizing the team, who have done so much work on this release. Having said that, my level 9 definately has trouble with some areas close to the two new starting areas.
Perhaps it would be better to have a "balancing issues" section of the forum, to allow players to openly say IMHO, area x is too difficult, without generating some of the negativity I've seen whenever someone has tryed to bring this up thus far, and without having the severity of labeling something a bug.
Edit: (sorry if this is a bit rambling, it's late and I'm tired)

[Mooneyes]

Zergon,

Clover wil be sad to hear that.  She was looking forward to learning some new things from you.  You were always kind to her and offered a helping hand too.  I really enjoyed the few times we hung out.  I hope your not gone for long.

[Zergon]

Havoc, I can sypathize to your viewpoint. I think some things are easier (eg getting aloe) and many things are more difficult (eg. getting salt). People keep saying everyone should explore, find new places for CNR, etc., but personally I'm somewhat scared to explore new places, because of some of the dangerous spawns I've encountered in areas that used to be fairly safe. I really don't envy the team here, who are expected to be able to balance making things challenging, but still fun for less powerfully built characters The DMs here are asking us to help them by submitting bug reports, but quite frankly, who am I to say "place x is a bug because it is too hard for my character." With all the stickies in the bug forum, it's a little intimidating to post something like that, especially because it seems like we're critisizing the team, who have done so much work on this release. Having said that, my level 9 definately has trouble with some areas close to the two new starting areas.
Perhaps it would be better to have a "balancing issues" section of the forum, to allow players to openly say IMHO, area x is too difficult, without generating some of the negativity I've seen whenever someone has tryed to bring this up thus far, and without having the severity of labeling something a bug.
Edit: (sorry if this is a bit rambling, it's late and I'm tired)

Very well said.
Thank you

[Zergon]

I'm not going anywhere I'll still pop on layo and RP, I am just giving the team time to work out the issues that are causing problems.

Zergon got his 8th soul strand to an invisibility bug in the game, my best and favorite character. The way things are going now it wouldn't be a good idea to play him much as things could turn for the worse.

Trying to play my other characters is far more challenging as both are low level and can't really help much due to CNR issues.

Look forward to RP-ing with you all, just not as adventurous.

Zergon

[twidget658]

@twidget658
 
 ".....I took him into a cave (not named for CNR purposes) and he about got his butt handed to him. I found out that the cave only contained greenstone and copper. My character is level 21 and should not be taking such beatings from the things that were in the cave....."
 
 Was that on West? A cave should not be that difficult for west CNR, unless there is something there that I am not aware of at this time. PM me please.

 
 My previous post dissappeared completely without a trace. But anyway, PM sent.

[Dorganath]

I'm sorry to hear you are dissatisfied.  If I may take a few moments to respond to your comments and perhaps you can consider them as you consider whether or not to continue spending time here.

It's a role play server indeed but after playing on other servers of the same type I find that layonara is more of a "forced RP" server than a "stressed RP" server.. I see more "fear of the DM's " than i do anything else.
On the other servers i've explored the RP is stressed but not enforced and I see more RP and players taking their time to actually RP than I do on Layonara. This concerns me as Layonara has depth and some of those do not... sure their npc's are more active... (changing of the guard from day and night, night and day spawns blah blah blah) but otherwise the only interesting things there are the other people RP-ing.

I'm not sure what is meant by the "forced" vs. "stressed".  Without going into a deep semantic discussion or detailed specifics, let me just put forth that the rules we have regarding RP (and I assume that is what you mean by "forced") were not always as strict as they are now, but their current state in most cases is the result of a few players taking things way too far.  Some of that is a symptom of a growing player base.  Some of it is a lack of maturity.  When numerous warnings, both public and private were not sufficient to curb certain things which were not in keeping with the spirit of this world, we had to clamp down.  Perhaps we will relax things again, but the community has to keep certain things in mind as we do. Just as some people hide behind PvP rules, so too do some take to stretching the umbrella of RP to cover as much as possible, and sometimes that goes too far.

Also I see less people worrying about how long their character will last (as there is no permanent death system but other things to discourage stupidity) and less rushing out to kill kill kill with no good reason...

This is valid, and while I understand a system of permanent death is not as appreciated by everyone, it is something that has been a part of this world for years now and it's known up-front.  Overall, the system works pretty well in the capacity for which it is intended.  Having said that, it would be interesting to hear what other systems to "discourage stupidity" have been used successfully.

Yes in V3 soloing or even grouping up to accomplish a goal has become almost impossible for a level 1-6 character... and greed has taken over and co-operation seems to have left. Meaningless deaths are all around and good characters have died in vain.

This cannot and should not be blamed on V3.  There were plenty of avoidable and meaningless permanent deaths in V2 as well, many of which stemmed from a period of time where we suspended the current Soul Strand system.  To be more specific, many players established a pattern of behavior that was reckless and dangerous knowing that there was no real risk. A week into the suspension of Soul Strand loss, I lost count of how many times people asked me to bring it all back.

Now, V3 has its warts and its growing pains surely, but it hasn't been in place even a month yet.  I was not yet here at the start of V2, but I can say with complete certainty that how V2 was when I started and the V2 that was brought to a close at the end of February were two very, very different things.  There were bugs, yes.  The servers were far, far, far less stable than they are now. The point is, V3 will improve, and it will do so with constructive feedback from the community.  That is very much a key element to Layonara's constantly evolving state. I don't think that can be stressed enough.

I realize this is a new version and there are bugs... but losing a soul strand to a bug or a bad spawn and trying to prove this is aggravating to say the least.

OK, as the guy who handles these requests, I have both stated and followed through with a degree of leniency due to losses that are the result of bugs in V3.  For a time, I even considered suspending the loss of Soul Strands during this introductory period so that people would not be afraid to help us test, but the loss rate and reporting of such did not seem to warrant it.  So please, do not make assumptions that we don't care about bugs or losses due to bugs. In fact, even in the standard policies, losses due to bugs are valid reasons for reimbursement.

I will, however, contribute one other piece of information.  The policies for reimbursements used to be more relaxed, but again, because they were abused and their limits pushed by people, we had to tighten them down and establish some consistent standards which I do try very hard to maintain.

Does anyone test these areas before putting them on the server? and how are they tested... to me (krandor crypts being a huge example) they seem very untested when put out on the server, as i know what it takes to test an area.

Yes, they are tested...and which Krandor crypts do you mean? Because they were just updated within the last week.  The previous Krandor Crypts were still the same from V2. The V3 version was reviewed by our lead balancer and I tested them myself up until the point where my test character could not get past a door that required somone to pick the lock.  The V2 version often had a "bring a cleric" stigma to it, but that was by design.  

If it was V3, we would like to know specific things about it, rather than simply "seems untested".  This is very vague and does not do much to improve things for anyone, which is ultimately the goal.

And on testing. As this is a volunteer effort, and as our player-base is extremely diverse with characters to match, it simply is not practical to test things out in the variety of combinations that we have to support in the time which we have available. We couldn't hope to test in a month what our players could test in less than a single week.  You should understand this by your background.  And so, we make our best efforts based on experience and whatever testing we can manage, then we observe how it works in a live setting.  If things need to be changed, they are.

We cannot currently do any better than that.

my point... there are lots of things i would do differently here... though my opinions probably mean nothing...

This is absolutely untrue.  In fact, I'd like to hear more detail about what people do not think is quite right about this world.  I hear about so many people who apparently hold back their opinons and valid observations.  There's absolutely nothing wrong with constructive input from anyone, whether they are a brand new player or a long-time veteran.  I see more possibilities in your message here, but it's pretty low on details.  We need those details if things are to improve.

Having said that, we do not act on or implement all suggestions we receive, but that does not mean they are ignored, simply that they may not be a proper fit for Layonara or that we have not been able to make them happen yet.  But we have suggestion and discussion forums here for a reason, and the list of community-suggested enhancements to the world is a very long list indeed.

I'll give the server time to even itself out but because of the CNR issues and DM's scolding higher level characters (leaving out dm names here) for helping lower levels get what they need I'll be playing elsewhere till i see some kind of compromize (hint hint no soul mother till areas are perfected blah blah blah)

OK, several things here:
1) I hope you do keep the world in mind, and I don't mind saying that we are already working on a review of where CNR is, where it should be and what is between the CNR and characters.  This is a work-in-progress and it is happening. Balance is a process.

2) On GM's "scolding" higher level players for helping lower-level players...what I think both parties need to understand here is that again, there is a very high potential (and yes, history) of abuse of the line between justifyable RP and XP dragging.  This has happened way too much over the years and we've heard tons of excuses about why it was thought to be OK.  Higher-level characters helping lower-level ones is OK if done responsibly and with a mind for the spirit of the server.  If said lower-level characters hang way back or flit around invisibly contributing little to nothing to the group, then that's not helping, that's dragging, and it's obvious.  It's a fuzzy grey line, I agree, but it needs to be handled responsibly by all involved.  On the chance that the "scolding" was a bit more, read on.  Well, read on anyway.

3) As I said, it was considered, and even approved, to shut off Soul Strand loss for a time while we test things out. So far, since V3 has been released, there have only been maybe 2 or 3 V3 bug-related requests of this nature and unless I am remembering incorrectly, they have been approved.  Since the volume has been low, there has been no need to turn off the system, and I am continuing to handle them on a case-by-case basis and even being more lenient to the possiblity of bug-related losses during this time.  We are not cruel, heartless or sadistic.  We do understand the desire to not lose characters, and we have, in fact, resurrected at least one or more permanently dead characters who lost their 10th soul strand due to a situation that should not have occurred. And I am still willing to consider doing this in a controlled way if it seems logical to do so. So far, however, it does not based on what I am seeing.

Though you seem to have made your decision, and I do respect that, I hope at least if you read this you'll consider what has been said and perhaps it will dispel some assumptions, rumors or other negative perceptions. If not for you, then perhaps for someone else.

I do want to address one other point specifically:

I see more "fear of the DM's " than i do anything else.

This concerned me more than anything else you have said in this entire post.  I'd like to know more about your perspective as to why people fear GMs.  While I know that "us vs. them" idea is out there and has been out there, we do try to keep things as open and fair as possible, though we don't see everything, and if one or more GMs are acting inappropriately (as either their characters or as GMs) then such things need to be addressed.  GMs have to maintain a higher adherence to the standards of this community, not a more relaxed one.

If you want to continue this via PMs, then I'm willing to hear what you have to say.  If you do not feel comfortable communicating with me, then you can always send such information to Leanthar.  If there are logs or screenshots or anything else that substantiates this stated fear then I would very much like to see what it is.

And to anyone else who may be reading this, if there are questions in your minds that perhaps lead to these fears, then I encourage you to use the "Ask a Gamemaster" forum, in case there are just unknowns that are leading to fears.  

Alright, well it's very late for me now, and so I need to end this.  Do consider what I have written and feel free to ask for more clarification.

I'd also encourage you, with your stated background, to consider applying for the Project Team when applications come back around.  We can always use talented people who are willing to devote time and effort into making Layonara better.

[AeonBlues]

Zergon: One of the painful lessens that I have learned in life is that ultimatums only enrage people and make them feel disrespected.  Time and time again the DM staff has asked for our patients with the V3 release.  They have made enormous efforts to not only build V3, but also resolve the bugs just as quickly as they can.  Need I remind you that no one is getting paid to do this work?  Leanthar has stated over and over again that if areas are not balanced, that we should report them as bug reports and they will be reviewed and changed.

As far as the "DM's scolding higher level characters" issue... well that is a complex issue.  Perhaps it would  have been better for you to bring this subject up in a constructive manner on the forums or IRC.  I am more to blame then the character in question.  I asked him to help my character, and a couple of others get into a dangerous  area to harvest a CNR that my character needed as a spell component.  What ended up happening, is between point A and point B we kept running into other adventures that wanted to join up  with us in the interest of having fun.  The end result is that a bunch of characters who were not quite high enough level to be in the area we were in, ended up tagging along.  I didn't suggest we should exclude anyone because I didn't think anyone was so low in level, and still don't, that they should be excluded from an outing on the West server.  Also every character was very active, doing everything they possibly could to help with the encounters we faced.

Obviously the DMs that peeked in on us, saw what they felt to be a bad RP situation in progress.  The high level character was pulled out of the party, and talked to by one or more DMs.  Another option the DMs could have used would be to spawn some crazy monsters on us, that wiped out the entire party and brought the soul mother howling and screaming left and right. I think that pulling the high level character out and having a OOC conversation was a healthy way to deal with this situation and maintain a good vibe of all the players that were involved.

Zergon, I encourage you to re think what you are saying here, and make an apology to the people that work so hard, so that we can have so much fun playing a game.

AeonBlues

[twidget658]

...but the loss rate and reporting of such did not seem to warrant it.
 
 So far, since V3 has been released, there have only been maybe 2 or 3 V3 bug-related requests of this nature and unless I am remembering incorrectly, they have been approved. Since the volume has been low, there has been no need to turn off the system, and I am continuing to handle them on a case-by-case basis and even being more lenient to the possiblity of bug-related losses during this time.
 
 This concerned me more than anything else you have said in this entire post. I'd like to know more about your perspective as to why people fear GMs.

 
 I think that the low volume of requests for SS reimbursements may stem from the "must have a GM/WL witness to even consider requesting" is twarting the requests. And then, that falls through at times. After seeing people get criticized for wasting the Team's time with requests that don't have a legitimate witness(es), people think several times before posting, if they ever do.
 
 Second point, how do people know it is a reportable bug if it is a spawn? They may just think that it was ment to be and take their loss.
 
 As far as fearing GM's...maybe fear is not the right word, but getting bashed in the forums publically tends to turn people off and have a sense of withdrawal and seperation from the GM's. When a GM comes across as "this is how it is and I don't care what people think" or the "don't like it, don't join" attitude, it makes people shy away from expressing their thoughts on it. And not just to the GM involved, but to all GM's. Some folks, I am sure, feel that if they dispute one GM, then they have just taken on the whole GM team.
 
 My thoughts.
 
 Edit: AeonBlue, I really don't think an apology is necessary for expressing himself. The post was not really demeanng, disrespectful or slamming on anyone, just some thoughs and comparisons from his past experiences. If everone had to say they were sorry for having an opinion, how would things get fixed? The mentality of not wanting to say anything because "the team is busy" or "they are not paid" is more harmful then beneficial. Feedback comes in many forms, but it is vital for improvements.

[hawklen]

Nice. Alot of good points and discussion here.

Im curious, why are people afraid of GM's? They are just people too you know. Like, er, you know human (Except for eightbit. I swear hes a cylon) . They get annoyed and frustrated with us as some do with them

When I play my level 20, I get invited into a party, I don't check who is what level, if someone asks me where is platinum, I go and show them. Or if they need help (if he is in one of his saner moments) he will help them. They way he is, he enjoys facing hordes and smashing them, he will check around to see if anyone needs a heal.

I've gotten yelled(well, told firmly) at that I should of known better than to drag so and so low level to an area on west, even when I  wasnt the party leader, and was invited into the party and helping them find cnr. No biggie. Used to it, just shrug it off.

Oh, to the shack, I've went various times to it and it was empty, signs to it would be helpful.

Ok, thats it, I'm done ranting now Enjoy.

P.S: find hawk or jaldaric, good chance for rp and some excitement

[Ioskeha]

Zergon, I encourage you to re think what you are saying here, and make an apology to the people that work so hard, so that we can have so much fun playing a game.

I don't see why he should apologize.  He posted his opinion of what he feels is wrong with Layo.  It's his opinion; neither right or wrong, and we have to respect that.

This ties into what I want to reply to what Dorganath asked him.  About people having a fear of the GMs.  I can not speak for Zergon, but I will say why I hold things back.  It's not that I only have a fear of the GMs, and I might say something that makes one of them angry and I get banned.  It's also the community.  The community is overly critical towards anyone that has a "negative" opinion of the the server.  I'm not saying I do.  There's a lot of things I really like about Layo, just as there are a few things I do not like as well.  There has been a few times when I did not agree to something, and instead of saying so I just remained silent.  Out of fear that the community would jump on my back.

Until people can feel safe about bringing their concerns about the server to these boards this fear will always be here.