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Author Topic: Glowy lights, Spellcraft and spell recognition.  (Read 680 times)

ycleption

Glowy lights, Spellcraft and spell recognition.
« on: July 10, 2008, 12:08:07 am »
Ok, this seems to come up, and I'm never sure how to resolve it.

90% percent of the time, most of us can recognize a given spell by the effect that we see in game. Which raises the question of whether a similar recognition can be achieved IC as well.

Obviously, something like barkskin, well, you can see that it's bark. On someone's skin. Or Fireball, because well, it's a ball of fire...

But there are a lot of other spells that only produce incidental glowy lights (Which, as Jennara has pointed out, has never been satisfactorily explained by those knowledgeable in the Al'Noth), which some players treat as being recognizable, and some don't.

Obviously this leads to conflicting RP, when character A says "Although I've studied quite a bit, knowledge of the Al'Noth escapes me" and character B say "Ur.. Me see bad man cast Phantasmal killer"
I used to RP Drexia as having no magical knowledge, not knowing the names of spells and such, but that became to hard to maintain when just about every other non caster routinely refers to spells by their names.
Similar issues come up when characters request specific spells to be cast on them (or worse, to be "buffed" with a given spell), but I think there's a bit more leeway there, since most characters have at some point had a conversation with a magic user about what spells help them.

The other thing, is that there is a skill, Spellcraft, that is automatically rolled to see if someone can recognize a spell being cast. If a character can recognize a spell based on the visual effect, why even have that as an attribute of Spellcraft? (I realize that mechanically the recognition part of spellcraft can function before the spell is actually cast, for use in counterspelling, but still...)

So. What does it take for a character, expecially a non-magically proficient one, to recognize what a given spell is? does it make a difference if the spell is cast on them, so that they can feel the effects?
 

osxmallard

Re: Glowy lights, Spellcraft and spell recognition.
« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2008, 12:13:44 am »
If you have zero points in SC and it's not being cast directly on you, I will ignore checks.  

IC, you can obviously see that someone died from a spell or is seriously injured, but a non-caster would not know what spell caused the damage unless that same character took damage or an effect from the spell.
 

Chongo

Re: Glowy lights, Spellcraft and spell recognition.
« Reply #2 on: July 10, 2008, 12:26:43 am »
Well, precedence plays a large role in this all I think.  The moment a caster calls an effect by name, it is a precedent.  My melee has watched generations of casters call things by name, the same name each time, and by the gods he knows the names of the magicky flickery effects that have come to mean something in battle.
 
 The important roleplay to me is in the learning of this.  Like anything, it is something learned.  It's common sense.  You don't metagame knowledge of the NWN handbook.  Likewise you don't use speech that diminishes from the environment around you.  After learning about stoneskin, and hearing of it a million times over, part of your atmospheric value in roleplay is putting your spin on it.    Be creative.  Understand the mind of your character and how they would take that information and describe it.  They wouldn't say 'I need an invis' perhaps... maybe they'd say 'make me unseen' instead?
 
 I have to say, the only value you'll ever add to this fantasy driven world is being a character who immerses the others around you further.  This sort of thing is no exception.  And by that I mean that you can't be so fanatical about the man behind the curtain every player knows of, has read about, and sees right there even - insofar as to demand a necessary level of feigned ignorance to what is deemed proper roleplay.... but likewise you need to also provide atmosphere, know your character, and never take shortcuts on what he or she should be.
 
 Eh? Eh?
 
 ;)
 

Weeblie

Re: Glowy lights, Spellcraft and spell recognition.
« Reply #3 on: July 10, 2008, 12:49:29 am »
If one is gifted enough to reliably detect the exact spells (whether due to the effects or something else), then one should really invest skill points into spellcraft (the primary usage of spellcraft is not to manipulate magical power, or it would be locked to the caster classes, but rather to do exactly this detection). :)

And when one has put skill points into spellcraft, one would quite automatically start to get the OOC-feedback without having to peek on the graphics only! I consider this on par with that one should put extra skill points into spot if one has really keen eyes. :)
 

lonnarin

Re: Glowy lights, Spellcraft and spell recognition.
« Reply #4 on: July 10, 2008, 01:01:57 am »
Fireball and Lightning Bolt wouldn't be all that difficult to identify, as well as stoneskin, I would think. The mages that be named them for exactly what they are.
 

darkstorme

Re: Glowy lights, Spellcraft and spell recognition.
« Reply #5 on: July 10, 2008, 01:54:43 am »
Phantasmal Killer (one of the examples in the initial post) would be, I think, right up there in the top of "difficult to identify spells for the layman".  The spell's effect is barely visible to the caster, let alone to anyone nearby.

The caster sees "only a shadowy shape", the victim sees his or her worst nightmare, and everyone else sees the caster move their hands, speak some words, point at the victim.. who then falls over dead, their face a mask of fright.

It's likely more the symptoms than the act of casting that would allow a (high-INT) non-caster to start to recognize spells.  The words would likely be garbled to someone who couldn't use the Al'Noth, no matter how many times they heard them, and the hand motions would be difficult to categorize for one not versed in the careful movements of the Art.  But a clever person might say, "Hm.  That could be that spell that mage called... what was it, 'Finger of Death'?  Wait, no, look at the face.  Scared to death.  Ah!  Got it! *snaps fingers*"

If you're going to go around identifying spells and you're not trained in the Art, at least RP the deduction involved in deciphering which spell you've just seen.

It's that or I take the time to change all the spell scripts so they produce random glowy lights, rather than the same ones each time. ;)  Wouldn't be too hard - I'd just have to persuade someone to include it in the next update, is all.
 

Acacea

Re: Glowy lights, Spellcraft and spell recognition.
« Reply #6 on: July 10, 2008, 02:32:13 am »
Which brings up Jennara's ancient question of basically, "If magic is so powerful, why do mages seem utterly incapable of doing it without a lot of excessively flashy light shows? Are they simply gaudy?" ;)
 

Script Wrecked

Re: Glowy lights, Spellcraft and spell recognition.
« Reply #7 on: July 10, 2008, 02:48:04 am »
Quote from: ycleption
Obviously, something like barkskin, well, you can see that it's bark. On someone's skin.


This is further complicated when you have some people saying the spell visual effects are OOC rather than IG.

Regards,

Script Wrecked.
 

osxmallard

Re: Glowy lights, Spellcraft and spell recognition.
« Reply #8 on: July 10, 2008, 03:46:00 am »
Quote
This is further complicated when you have some people saying the spell visual effects are OOC rather than IG.


*raises hand*  I don't think anyone can see the flashy lights surrounding your character and I think it is a visual indication to the player that the buffs/spells are still in effect on the character.  Nor do I think your skin looks like bark or stone when buffed with stone/barkskin.

I wouldn't mind if all visual effects are taken off completely, including those on monsters/npc's.  Each player has a whole bar of icons they can look at to see which spells are active and when they fade.
 

Blackguy

Re: Glowy lights, Spellcraft and spell recognition.
« Reply #9 on: July 10, 2008, 04:58:08 am »
Quote from: osxmallard
*raises hand*  I don't think anyone can see the flashy lights surrounding your character and I think it is a visual indication to the player that the buffs/spells are still in effect on the character.  Nor do I think your skin looks like bark or stone when buffed with stone/barkskin.

I wouldn't mind if all visual effects are taken off completely, including those on monsters/npc's.  Each player has a whole bar of icons they can look at to see which spells are active and when they fade.

I agree on that. Lets remove all flashy wards and spells from people, and just keep it simple.
 

aragwen

Re: Glowy lights, Spellcraft and spell recognition.
« Reply #10 on: July 10, 2008, 06:04:02 am »
Quote from: Blackguy
I agree on that. Lets remove all flashy wards and spells from people, and just keep it simple.
 
 I am in full agreement with this.
 
 However sometimes when you go through an area all the icons indicating current wards and buffs disappear which makes it difficult to know when those truly fade. But then again is it not the casters job to know when his spells will fade. Might make it interesting.
 
 To be honest what is worse to me is when people see buffs fade and go, oh we out of buffs now. While some spells are visibly noticable and some you might feel, there is no way a non-spell user would know the spells have faded.
 
 Another example is walking into an area invisible and going, "Oh watch out the shaman has true seeing". In my opinion there is no way of knowing that except looking at the "cheat" glowing lights.
 
 Having said that I do believe some spells actually does have a visual affect.
 For example barkskin or stoneskin, I always RPed that your body is covered with bark or stone. So in that regard I do believe it can be seen visibly. But true sight or mind blank for example does not have the glowy eyes (maybe the eyes are glowing on the fence here) or turning thing above your head. Those I think should not be visible.
 

Script Wrecked

Re: Glowy lights, Spellcraft and spell recognition.
« Reply #11 on: July 10, 2008, 06:17:08 am »
Quote from: osxmallard
*raises hand*  I don't think anyone can see the flashy lights surrounding your character and I think it is a visual indication to the player that the buffs/spells are still in effect on the character.  Nor do I think your skin looks like bark or stone when buffed with stone/barkskin.


Which causes a sense of disconnection when one person is role playing that the barkskin/stoneskin can be seen, and the other person is role playing that the barkskin/stoneskin can't be seen.

Quote from: osxmallard
I wouldn't mind if all visual effects are taken off completely, including those on monsters/npc's.  Each player has a whole bar of icons they can look at to see which spells are active and when they fade.


Indeed. Most of the time I can't see what's actually happening in combat due to my character being smothered by great circling arcs of arcane lettering.

Regards,

Script Wrecked.
 

Dorganath

Re: Glowy lights, Spellcraft and spell recognition.
« Reply #12 on: July 10, 2008, 08:13:17 am »
I would just like to point out that "turning off all visual effects" for persistent buffs and such isn't just a matter of flipping a switch. It's going through each and every spell script and finding each duration-based VFX, deciding if it should be kept and removing it if not, or at least shortening its duration.  

Translation: This is a non-trivial exercise, and quite honestly a pretty low-priority one at that.

And, as has been pointed out, sometimes you go through a transition and your effect icons disappear even though the effect is still present. The on-screen visual does provide some rather helpful feedback.
 

Gulnyr

Re: Glowy lights, Spellcraft and spell recognition.
« Reply #13 on: July 10, 2008, 11:20:08 am »
Maybe that's something to look into for the MMO, that only players of characters with the ability to sense magic, through a "Spellcraft" skill or whatever, would see the magic indicators on their monitors.  Players of non-magically-able characters would not detect any magic that didn't have an obvious, visible effect (soft glowing light, fireball, actually barky barkskin, etc).  Kind of like only characters with Sight spells active can see invisible people at a distance in NWN.
 

Pen N Popper

Re: Glowy lights, Spellcraft and spell recognition.
« Reply #14 on: July 10, 2008, 11:36:37 am »
Aren't the visual attributes IC?  Ioun stones swirl around and people call them red or blue, etc.  If they're not IC then take them off but I don't see that it can be called wrong to RP that you can see them.  Identifying them by sight too should be allowed in RP if it makes IC sense for you to do so.  That's the way I play, anyway.
 

Dorganath

Re: Glowy lights, Spellcraft and spell recognition.
« Reply #15 on: July 10, 2008, 11:39:32 am »
Define "detect"?  See it being cast? See its persistent visual effect (if any)?

EDIT: Ioun stones are actually designed to circle one's head, not their entire body.  The visuals are much larger in NWN so they can be better seen.
 

miltonyorkcastle

Re: Glowy lights, Spellcraft and spell recognition.
« Reply #16 on: July 10, 2008, 12:21:02 pm »
I have always imagined the visual effects to be IC. However, I have also always wished I could turn them on and off at will.

We need to come to a consensus, at least for consistency, on whether the visual effects are IC or OOC. I actually don't care which, but since there seems to be more than a hint of uncertainty on this, I'd like a "final" word on whether the visual effects are IC or not.
 

Dorganath

Re: Glowy lights, Spellcraft and spell recognition.
« Reply #17 on: July 10, 2008, 12:39:50 pm »
Quote from: miltonyorkcastle
I have always imagined the visual effects to be IC. However, I have also always wished I could turn them on and off at will.

We need to come to a consensus, at least for consistency, on whether the visual effects are IC or OOC. I actually don't care which, but since there seems to be more than a hint of uncertainty on this, I'd like a "final" word on whether the visual effects are IC or not.

Which visual effects?  The visuals that surround a caster while casting?  The fire-and-forget burst of light and sound when a spell goes off?  The persistent visual effects that last the duration of the spell?

The problem is that some of those will rightly be considered IC and visible. I'd even go so far as to say most are, especially the casting effects.  Nearly all of the "impact" effects are also likely visible and very much IC. Regarding the persistent ones, for spells like Shadow Shield, Invisibility and several others, the visual effect is very much part of the spell and would also be IC.  Something like Elemental Resistance (ring of runes) shows a visual that is more a reminder to the player than anything.  Several spells have ambiguous persistent visual effects (Spell Resistance and Protection from Spells). Still other spells already have no persistent visuals (i.e. attribute buffs).

So there's no "One, Final Answer" to this question.  Each case is potentially different.

To be honest, I don't think it's terribly important.
 

Filatus

Re: Glowy lights, Spellcraft and spell recognition.
« Reply #18 on: July 10, 2008, 12:44:42 pm »
For people that are not well versed in magic, the best way to identify the spell is by recognizing the effect.

Based on previous experience someone might recognize Phantasmal Killer cast on him, even though that someone didn't recognize the magic involved.

But this also means that same person would have no idea it was phantasmal killer if it were cast on someone else. After all, the target was the only one to experience the effect.
 

Stephen_Zuckerman

Re: Glowy lights, Spellcraft and spell recognition.
« Reply #19 on: July 10, 2008, 01:42:58 pm »
With forty-odd years of running around, getting spells cast on him and around him, I play Pyyran as being able to recognize many spells by their effects (though some he actually does get through Spellcraft rolls, albeit untrained). Fireball, Invisiblity - easy ones, sure. Wierd, True Seeing - more difficult, but there is still a visual effect, albeit one much more difficult to identify/spot. Charm Person? Fox's Cunning, on someone OTHER than him? Ain't happening.

If a Strength buff fades, your character feels it. Ditto, any of the rest... Though Wisdom and Charisma might be a little more difficult. An elemental resistance? Not sure - that could go either way. Mind Blank? Oh, yeah. You'll notice that one.

This isn't to say that, even with forty years' study of magic, both in practice (read: getting spells cast on him), and in study (read: pestering mages about how things work), Pyyran (or any character with similar experiences) can identify a spell while it's being cast - that's what the Spellcraft skill represents. Nor that he can identify a spell's effects that he hasn't seen before... Just that, while he also may not be a master sapper, he's learned a few things over the years.

In the end, though, it's all about the RP. If it adds to it, it's probably a good thing. If it detracts from it, it's probably not.