Items level requirement and race restrictions

[akata]

I was wondering about the requirements/restrictions on items in regard to NPC's, I always figured the level reg. was an ooc way to control when players can use said item but what of the restrictions? Would a bow made for elves simply not work for other races? Is the restriction a magic barrier or simply the result of items made to fit the race and thereby being unhandy for other races?

[Dorganath]

Could be either, really.  A bow made for an elf might be contoured and formed in such a way to make it unwieldy in any other hands.  Or perhaps since bows are such a strong part of the elven cultural tradition, it may be that the bow has a "sweet spot" that only an elf can sense and use properly, and for all others it is just a normal bow.  Since NWN doesn't really allow for such mechanical behavior, this is manifested in such a way that prevents use completely when the restrictions aren't met.

However, it could also be that whoever made the weapon/item placed an enchantment upon it that actually prevents anyone but the designated race(s) from using it.  Maybe it burns...maybe it slips from the person's grasp. Who knows!

There's also class restrictions, which I just attribute to needing training to use properly, or in the case of caster-only restrictions, a need to have the proper magic in order to activate them.

Alignment restrictions are probably enchanted, in that they have to look into the person in a way and determine if the wielder is of the right mind set.

As far as how they affect NPCs, creatures can and will unequip items that are not usable by them, even if said items are designed into them in the toolset.

[akata]

Could be either, really.  A bow made for an elf might be contoured and formed in such a way to make it unwieldy in any other hands.  Or perhaps since bows are such a strong part of the elven cultural tradition, it may be that the bow has a "sweet spot" that only an elf can sense and use properly, and for all others it is just a normal bow.  Since NWN doesn't really allow for such mechanical behavior, this is manifested in such a way that prevents use completely when the restrictions aren't met.

However, it could also be that whoever made the weapon/item placed an enchantment upon it that actually prevents anyone but the designated race(s) from using it.  Maybe it burns...maybe it slips from the person's grasp. Who knows!

There's also class restrictions, which I just attribute to needing training to use properly, or in the case of caster-only restrictions, a need to have the proper magic in order to activate them.

Alignment restrictions are probably enchanted, in that they have to look into the person in a way and determine if the wielder is of the right mind set.

As far as how they affect NPCs, creatures can and will unequip items that are not usable by them, even if said items are designed into them in the toolset.

Sorry I should have been more clear in my question, I know mechanical npc's will use any item they have (dusts, healing, dragon scales, I even seen a Screeching equip a sword that was there after to pick up as drop) as long as they fall within the requirement/restrictions of the creature, I was looking for the answer rp-wise, say you gave away a item with to high lvl reg or if the NPC was of the wrong race. Would that mean the person/creature can't use it?

[Dorganath]

...I was looking for the answer rp-wise, say you gave away a item with to high lvl reg or if the NPC was of the wrong race. Would that mean the person/creature can't use it?

As far as how they affect NPCs, creatures can  and will unequip items that are not usable by them, even if said items  are designed into them in the toolset.

I kind of answered it, but I'll try and be more specific.

If it's a level-based limitation, then the way I've always thought of it, PC or NPC, is that the "power" of the item is simply too much for the individual to properly wield/use.  It may not (in an RP sense) prevent one from holding the item, but maybe due to balance, complexity or some other factor, the individual is simply not able to manage it.  In terms of class/race restrictions, what I said above still fits.

[Guardian 452]

Kind of like anyone can hold a gun. But do they know how to load a shell, run its action and saftey, aim it correctly, fire it, and hit their target.

Thats kinda the way I view level or even some type of class restrictions in game.

[akata]

If it's a level-based limitation, then the way I've always thought of it, PC or NPC, is that the "power" of the item is simply too much for the individual to properly wield/use.  It may not (in an RP sense) prevent one from holding the item, but maybe due to balance, complexity or some other factor, the individual is simply not able to manage it.

I can see that working for items that have some sort of activation (spells or the like)
But if level-based limitation prevents a person from using an item then doesn't that completely ruin armors, weapons, ability enhancement and the more mundane bonus on items from an rp point of view?
Take an army; if level based limitation is IC then they would benefit nothing from getting better gear? After all how many would be above level 5 which is the level requirement for iron.  Why would mithril, cobalt or even adamantium be so valuable? In most cases npc's wouldn't be able to use it for anything but paper weights.

Kind of like anyone can hold a gun. But do they know how to load a shell, run its action and saftey, aim it correctly, fire it, and hit their target.

Thats kinda the way I view level or even some type of class restrictions in game.

I fully agree on that there is a difference, but in your example I would say it's the weapon proficiency and not the material the weapon is made off. Wouldn't an npc soldier, who have received training in using a blade, benefit from using a mithril blade over a bronze?

[Rowana]

This is the way I've always looked at it. Race restrictions have a lot to do with the make of it. It's too heavy, it's not big enough around to fit, it's not strong enough to handle the strength of... there's a plethora of reasons race restrictions could make RP sense that have to do with the item being premade. They bought it off the shelf, limited number edition maybe!

Class goes back to proficiency. The person generally lacks the proficiency to work with whatever the item is. Level I tend to go with proficiency again. How does it make sense that level limits armor usage? The difference between wearing copper and mithril is pretty vast. There's a huge weight difference. Being used to your armor affects your skill in battle. Lighter armor does -not- mean that you'll automatically be better at what you do. It takes time and practice to get used to that weight difference. In the mean time you are still having to face battles maybe? Switching back and forth increases that time... Take this from someone who's worn almost a full set of steel plate and all it's padding, carried around weapons and still had to function besides. Weight all by itself plays a big part in everything from ammo to mail. Some combatants prefer the heavier armor because it makes them feel safer then lighter armor and allows them to fight with more confidence. Lighter armor makes some people nervous and it takes time to get that battle confidence up. This doesn't even get into care of other metals, intricacy of the armor (you know the fancy ones that give you extra feats. That's not necessarily just magically applied! Might be tinkered in there.).

I guess the question here is, are we nitpicking the aging platform again and trying to force the team to come up with a reason why X works just so? Is there something more specific that we are seeking an answer to (I.E. Why can't my rogue use X item? How do I RP that?")? Rp reasons are a heck of a lot easier to generate if you go case by case rather then general blanket statements. I really don't see a problem with a standing army of level one soldiers that can't wear mithril, anyway. Soandso ruler/mayor/village elder aught to have trained his/her people better. Are all NPCs level one though? Not really! There are plenty of NPCs around this server, IG and implied/only available for quests that are far, far more then level 1.

~row

[miltonyorkcastle]

While I am occasionally forced to make up IC excuses for level requirements, my personal feelings toward level restrictions on items (at least with the way it's implemented with NWN) is that it's purpose and design is OOC and really doesn't make a lot of sense IC.

With NPCs, however, I would generally say that their level is not only representative of their skill, but of their wealth, and thus lower levels couldn't afford the better gear. However, if they were given/supplied with/equipped with better gear (say, addy sword and armor) as part of some organization (such as a military unit), then IC it would make sense that they could use it, even if they are first level fighters in terms of skills and abilities. Really, better equipment (in general) should actually be easier to use and maintain than lesser equipment, as, well, ease of use is part of the requirement for a higher rating.

[Dorganath]

I can see that working for items that have some sort of activation (spells or the like)
But if level-based limitation prevents a person from using an item then doesn't that completely ruin armors, weapons, ability enhancement and the more mundane bonus on items from an rp point of view?
Take an army; if level based limitation is IC then they would benefit nothing from getting better gear? After all how many would be above level 5 which is the level requirement for iron.  Why would mithril, cobalt or even adamantium be so valuable? In most cases npc's wouldn't be able to use it for anything but paper weights.

I fully agree on that there is a difference, but in your example I would say it's the weapon proficiency and not the material the weapon is made off. Wouldn't an npc soldier, who have received training in using a blade, benefit from using a mithril blade over a bronze?

I think I can see where you're going with this, but it really just is what it is.

NWN has an all-or-nothing approach to this.  In order to put an appropriate IC spin on it, one has to accept a little "doesn't make complete sense" in order for it to fit. As I understand it, it was a mechanical balance decision on Bioware's part and little else.  RP wasn't really a factor.

The exact same thing can be said of the weapon and armor feats, which mechanically prevent someone from even picking up a sword or strapping on a suit of armor, which cannot be explained in any IC way, unless we accept that the RP of it is not so much that one cannot hold/possess/wear such an item but that one cannot then be effective with said item.  Again, with NWN's all-or-nothing approach, it takes a bit more of a mental leap, but if an IC justification is needed, then we have to accept some fudging.

In the MMO, a Mithril Sword of Awesomeness could be wielded by a lowly, level 1 character, but that character will not be very effective with it.  The reasoning behind this is the same as what has been mentioned above. It may be a matter of design, weapon balance, armor complexity or whatever. It won't prevent someone from attempting to use advanced equipment, but it will limit who uses what.

Regardless of the reason or the system, things like this are ultimately done for reasons of balance. Sometimes that balance makes more IC sense, and sometimes it doesn't.

[Acacea]

This is the way I've always looked at it. Race restrictions have a lot to do with the make of it. It's too heavy, it's not big enough around to fit, it's not strong enough to handle the strength of... there's a plethora of reasons race restrictions could make RP sense that have to do with the item being premade. They bought it off the shelf, limited number edition maybe!

Size, weight, or whatever only make sense from the most basic level of excuse. "Restriction halfling... oh, it must be too small!" Right.

Wrong, actually. If a half-giant can "Use Magic Device" to defeat a race restriction, it is not due to size, weight, etc. IC reasoning for restrictions should really be considered against UMD.

Something like the Night Twins ring should have not only required race (little), but also specifically exclude every other race, and allow every class... to artificially raise the UMD for it since you aren't tricking the ring into fitting your fat fingers with your blinding charisma.

I'm just saying, it's alright for a fill-in quick excuse but it's not really great as an imposed standard. I am not, however, asking for such a standard to be created. I generally accept that few restrictions make a whole lot of sense to begin with, and likewise understand that forcing explanations tends to make it worse rather than better.

[Rowana]

Wrong, actually. If a half-giant can "Use Magic Device" to defeat a race restriction, it is not due to size, weight, etc. IC reasoning for restrictions should really be considered against UMD.

UMD for something that that wouldn't work on my quests. That's of course personal preference per GM but if it's too small, it's too small, unless the item states it re-sizes with proper magical coaxing. I won't go into UMD in NWN however because then... That's me nitpicking on an aging platform. **winks*

~row

[Acacea]

Sure, but if it is only on a quest, then a GM has said "this is a brownie-sized armor" and no one will try to wear it. A brownie sized armor that is an actual armor drop, however, can be worn with a low UMD unless it is artificially raised... which is why race restrictions on IG equipment should be used lightly, make sense when they are used, and if necessary make it more difficult than normal to get around.