Listen Checks

[Jon Heinrich]

Whats all this with people using a listen check on someone who speaks one sentence or so, and connecting the voice to a voice you heard months ago in character?

I mean, I understand if a character were to recognize a voice that had been distinct, or perhaps one of a family member or a friend.

In character, players shouldn't remember randoms voices.

Perhaps I'm wrong here, but it doesn't make much sense for someone to remember everyones voice, except if the characters intelligence is particularly high.

Question:

Am I completely crazy here? Or do I have something here?

[Jaigan]

Well to remember someones voice, I don't think it would be a listen check, all that does is tell them that yes they do hear you. I would think it would be more of an INT check, and unless they are an orc, or someone like steel it should be a high roll. on the otherhand, if you have done something that stands out say chased a girl all the way to hempstead from fort vehl :p your voice is something that would stick out in peoples minds relevent to that situation.
 
 The magic number for me is 3, after three times partying with someone I will always remember them from their voice. providing they talk and they normaly do

[ycleption]

Maybe a listen check paired with a wisdom check or intelligence check would be better (and OOC tells to make sure the other player doesn't object strenuously). If it was a random voice heard in passing, I agree with you. On the other hand, when there has been previous intense conversation or argument (which is often the case when players make checks like that). I don't think it's so unusual that a voice could impress on the memory of someone. Maybe a previous discussion or first meeting was in the dark, and the character has a stronger associations with the other characters voice.... There are always times when a given check is reasonable, and times when it is completely unreasonable. I can see how this could be abused, but with some common sense, I think it can be an appropriate way to recognize someone.

[Krell Himmler]

I think he's reffering to me, see, only time I spoke to them was on New Years, which was about 6-12 words, before I passed out. I've spoken to Jaigan before, and travelled with him and said a bit.

Voices are very very hard to remember in real life, how often does one pick up the phone and not recognise a voice. In reality, it's limited to friends and family, to remembering voices.

[Marswipp]

Or a blind person who is paying attention to the world around them.

[Hellblazer]

or someone who uses his ears to work *whistles a bit innocently*

Truly though, if an action is done that impress on the mind of someone, the voice, the smell, the shape of the eyes and colors, can be enough to actually revive that memory. An example is to take the people in a line up, and being identified by their voice when they are asked to say something.

A high listen check should be sufficient to not be coupled with a int check, in my mind. I'm not talking of let say a 16 here but more in the range of the 30+. The opposing player can always asks for the person to roll an int in conjunction to that.

And other thing I have seen to often, is people changing their clothes thinking  it's enough. There is many ways to identify people, the voice is one, the demeanor of the person, how he stands, how he acts and reacts, how he walks even the speech pattern.. All of those have to be rpied properly if you truly wish you persona's to be taken for someone else, bluff checks and perform checks also should be proficiently used, when you RP hiding your identity.

just my two cent of one who does it already with one of his char.

[ycleption]

At the same time, I think people have to remember that everyone is here to have fun... if it's going to spoil the fun for the other player, have a little restraint. Personally, in absence of a dm, I usually just send a tell to the player asking if they are recognizable in any way, or something along those lines, and let them decide how much leeway they want to give me in trying to recognize them. For some characters, being "discovered" may give rise to fun RP, for others, it will just mess up what they've been working on. I'm not saying you should completely abandon your own character in order to avoid conflict, but just be mindful of others.

[Krell Himmler]

I think ycleptions point is important, today people used such checks, to deliberately and maliciously ruin another person's fun and enjoyment of a game for OOC reasons, using OOC information IC. This isn't what it should ever be about.

**This wasn't everyone, just 1-2 people, I said people, not everyone. I won't say their name as they know who they are, I have no proof, if I get it, I will be sure to submit it, they said as much as to promise to force me to quit/ruin my time in tells before I knew how to screenshot**

[Gulnyr]

That is a strong accusation.  I don't doubt that OOC information is wrongly used to make IC decisions sometimes (usually accidentally), but "to deliberately and maliciously ruin another person's fun" is a pretty hefty phrase to toss in, and you are saying this of an entire group, which makes it seem less likely.

If this is a true statement rather than just melodrama and exaggeration, submit the evidence to the DM.

To the topic, ycleption's first post is a good one.  Since this is about disguises more than Listen checks, I dug up these quotes from a very old thread about disguises:

I would suggest, as a way to signify you are diguised with the limitations of hte game mechanics, that you setup a quickslot macro that describes how you are dressed.  Face isnt visible, speaks in a low(er) voice, walks stiffly as opposed to his usual loping gait... or something like that.  Then just spam that eveytime someone walks up.  well, not spam, but you know what I mean.  You may have to split it into two quickslots if its too long.  I realize spellcasters are short on quickslots but, two temporarily for this purpose would be worth it I think.  The only problem is that people may think "oh, he's describing his appearance, that means I should go over and be suspicious!" heh  But hopefully overall it will work out better than not doing it and haveing people recognize you.

I agree with Talan here. The responsibility is with you to let people know you are in disguise otherwise people who know you will just assume it is you.
  And the just because you have a disguise does not mean people wont recognise you. You will have to give people the chance to roll probably spot to see if they can recognise you. As far as the DC goes, that would depend on how well people know you in the first place and how good the disguise it. Even wearing a helmet there is a lot of things that will give you away. Voice and body language being two thatjump into my head straight away. I would say a DC of between 20-30 should probably be sufficient to recognise you.

I'm sort of torn between agreement and a "just deal with it, everyone has to at some point." There are a lot of cases where people blow decent disguises because of the floaty name, and also many more where there is perfectly good reason for recognizing a disguised character. Either way, reminding people to think twice before identifying a silent figure cloaked from head to toe across a city crowded with NPCs, is not necessarily a bad thing.

Yes, the disguise itself is not enough, you have to roleplay it and emote it and all that, and may still be recognized. But if you don't type at the speed of light, it's hard to get out a description before half the people in the town blurt out your name. Just put a little thought and roleplay into it on both sides, is all I'm saying.

Edit to point to what Talan said about the quickslotting a "HEY GUYS, GUESS WHO" macro. (Maybe not that one, exactly.)

Do you have any skill points in bluff? If not, [your character] may not be as good at disguising himself as he thinks he is. His attempts at lowering his voice may not fool anyone who knows [him] fairly well, and the helmet may not fit [the character], and his fighting style (even though he does his best to change it) is probably much like it always was - especially in pressed situations.

[I edited this one to make it more generic and less about one character, but it is otherwise as originally written. - Gulnyr]

To add to the part I bolded in the third quote, people change their clothes all the time.  My character has nine sets of clothes with her all the time, which I change pretty much every time I log in, and I make something new now and then.  Clothes themselves are not a disguise.  A hood or helmet itself is not a disguise.  It takes some extra effort or people will just think, "Oh, new clothes.  Nice."

[Hellblazer]

I think ycleptions point is important, today people used such checks, to deliberately and maliciously ruin another person's fun and enjoyment of a game for OOC reasons, using OOC information IC. This isn't what it should ever be about.

**This wasn't everyone, just 1-2 people, I said people, not everyone. I won't say their name as they know who they are, I have no proof, if I get it, I will be sure to submit it, they said as much as to promise to force me to quit/ruin my time in tells before I knew how to screenshot**

Now if this is true I find this pitiful that some people would go and do that. but as for the rest, changing clothes should not be not enough if its not supported with rpable emotes and appropriate checks.

[Eorendil]

Just on the subject of voices:  Maybe I'm the odd duck out and it wouldn't surprise me if I were but in real life I often recognize someone by their voice before I recognize a face.

On the other: Its unconscionable, honestly, assuming that it was done with the express intent to ruin someone's enjoyment.  You should speak to a GM you feel comfortable addressing the issue with if it continues or you still feel strongly about it.

[Falonthas]

another thing to add to this with voice and disguise
and we will use this example because he chimed in-the mage in the hood

he never changes his staff, doesnt mean you have to go alter it/ buy another one
he is always with the same people
he always acts the same

if you want to not be recognized, by a different helm, wear different colors and clothing style

just cause you altered the robe look by one or two choices, doesnt mean you wont be known

another thing, when dealing with others, act differently, be loud and happy and dont sit in a corner acting suspicious in a new robe

just some ideas

[Krell Himmler]

I do try to be helpful and friendly to everyone I meet, especially players newer/lower in level who need a hand, I know sometimes I get a bit angry quickly, but a few recent real life events led to that and I apologise.

[merlin34baseball]

In my humble opinion... perhaps preform checks should be used if you are playing the role of a different person every time you meet someone, especially if its the same people over and over?

Just an idea, mechanics wise.

[lonnarin]

The thing that always cracks me up is how paranoid people get when there's a perfect stranger in a hood, and how they feel it's their right to unmask the entire world.  The person could just be sitting off in the corner with their hood on, across the street or chatting in the bar and this character will run up, eyes wide, "SIR!  I DEMAAAAND that you take off your HOOD! DO IT!  ARGH DO IT NOW!!!".  *grab grab* *dex check! dex check!*  It's like the whole bloody world's going to end unless some random stranger pulls down his hoodie, and the ranting psycho never bothers to question any of the town guards with helms on, or any NPC they come across.  I really wish they'd accidentally grab somebody with leprosy and suffer -4 dex for the rest of their lives from their fingers rotting off sometimes.  "oi lad, now ye know why I wear a hood..."

Sheesh... almost as bad as those people who scream that you don't know their name yet somehow know you well enough to join in life & death hunting in the barren wastelands... as if people normally just wandered around with strangers to kill orcs and it were as common as a game of Street Fighter at the arcade.  You'd think that when life and death and teamwork in the face of impending doom were on the line, one'd be past the telling people what their name was before they'd be permitted to walk behind you with swords drawn.

[minerva]

I'm with Eor -  I recognize a voice before a face sometimes.  

The other thing that stands out is impressions.  

If Character HidyNoname does something that draws attention to themselves it is more likely they will be remembered either by face, voice, manner, association than Character Smith that just blends into the background.

[Krell Himmler]

If I remember rightly, statistically 80% of ID's of criminals are roughly done via clothing I think, I could be wrong but I'm reasonably certain.

[Hellblazer]

I think you kinda missing the point Lonnarin. It's not the question of just a hood, but if you want to effectively hide your identity 1 a hood where the person -can- see your face is just not going to cut it. 2 there is a lot more than just changing your clothes to effectively hide who you are.

That is the point of this whole debate.

I would also liek to add a little thing. I personally believe that listening is something that is done on a constant unless you choose not to listen. The emoting of the check is simply to reflect the chances they would recognize the voice.

[Lalaith Va'lash]

In my humble opinion... perhaps preform checks should be used if you are playing the role of a different person every time you meet someone, especially if its the same people over and over?

Just an idea, mechanics wise.

Agree completely.

]
If Character HidyNoname does something that draws attention to themselves it is more likely they will be remembered either by face, voice, manner, association than Character Smith that just blends into the background.

and agree 100% with this too.  Unless of course the pc is an excellent performer and the mannerism, accent, voice, and actions were out of the norm.

So now how do 'you' counter a perform check?  My PC tends to use bluff with bluff as a good liar can spot a lie.  But do you use perform against perform, or is it your wisdom or Int that tells you its all a magnificent act?

hehe, maybe I should start my own thread with that thought though :rolleyes:

[LightlyFrosted]

I should also add that while people might be a little more tolerant of hoods or helms on the roads, Hempstead isn't 'shadowy figure central'.  Unless it's raining, it's perfectly reasonable for a member of the Silverguard to ask you to remove your face-concealing garment, for the exact reason that a number of people wear them: people who, by the rules posted outside the Hempstead gates should NOT attempt to enter Hempstead, do.

Dark elves and other classically evil races sometimes manage to slip into Hempstead, but do so at their own risks.  The people of Hempstead in particular have every reason to be wary of people who cover every square inch of skin if they can't provide a good reason why they shouldn't.

Beyond that, it should be clarified that a hood, unless pulled VERY low (like, vision-obscuring-for-the-wearer) is not going to be a 100% foolproof way to conceal your identity, because it's not face-concealing.  This doesn't even touch into the peril you're in if you're a dark elf or an orc or something, where they just need to get a HINT that it's not all good under the hood.  Helmets, although a better solution for this, have their own brand of 'suspicious'.  Helmets are heavy, bulky, and if you wear them for any length of time, very, very hot.  Someone in a non-combat-oriented area with no easily discernable reason for wearing a helmet is going to draw MORE attention to themselves.

As far as recognition by voice goes, even the responses in this thread have shown a real difference in ability to recognize voices.  I myself fall somewhere in the middle of the road.  However, someone who's heard you speak before has a chance of recognizing your voice if he or she hears it again.  If there's no real attempt to change the voice, the chances improve.  If you exhibit similar mannerisms, or clumsily manifest a facade of different mannerisms, people may at the very least be suspicious of you.  If you've also got some face-concealing item, you skate a very dangerous line.

Different people will deal with such things in differing ways, but if you're somewhere that your character shouldn't be for whatever reason, you're taking a risk.  Slapping an item on isn't going to remove all risks of identification.  This isn't to say that people are justified in specifically demanding the removal of the hoods of all dark elves or orcs, or even petty criminals, unless they demand the same of all hood-or-helm wearers, or unless they have some other reason to be suspicious of the same.

A voice they think they recognize..  might be a gray-area reason for suspicion.