Lucinda and Toran

[jadewillow]

Can someone help us understand the conflict between Lucinda and Toran. Why is Toran considered an enemy to Lucinda?



Thanks.

[Rowana]

There's links about this same question that can be found where discussion has been had on the matter. All that we can tell you for right now is that the Gods themselves have not shared this Mystery with Their devout but expect the relations to be respected and even supported. I'd dig up the threads for you but I'm unable at this time. Sorry!



~row

[Lynn1020]

Ask Storold IC or OOC.  That is how I finally understood.  Of course IC is more fun. Always fun to hear Storold talk about Toran.

[EdTheKet]

   

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Originally Posted by jadewillow                                           Can someone help us understand the conflict between Lucinda and Toran. Why is Toran considered an enemy to Lucinda? Thanks.

I could But I won't release the actual facts as only Lucinda and Toran themselves know.



But there's plenty of stories and theories going around as to why. I'll just not confirm or deny any of them



But yes, they don't like eachother, that's a fact.

[Acacea]

This is a major thread about the more general topic.

My reply is here.

While specific events can be the cause in an uneven relationship, or one of mutual dislike, in most occasions dreaming up a single occasion and ignoring the many philosophical differences will make both deities seem that much more petty. Really, whatever mysterious event they are alluding to aside, Toran and Lucinda both have reasons to dislike one another in their history. They're both fairly old deities too, as far as the young ones go, and I could see them being more friendly or even allied in years long past, both working toward a common good. The Toran that charged Korryn with undeath to guard forever her burden amidst her magical trials, well... they don't come frothing after her, do they? That's a different Toran than the one current-day Lucindites tend to deal with on their outings.

It's now thousands of years later however, and they are always at odds, with lots of examples on both sides.

I am not going to speak for Toranites in general, but necromancy and undead is a big deal. He has an entire sect of blessed undead hunters, and his followers come up against more stupid evil liches and restless dead than demons. Toranites are a little more reasonable than Voraxians in that they don't (all) mislike magic as a whole, but are instead mostly very compromising on the fact that if we just got rid of necromancy, for crying out loud. How many people have asked why she lets so many bad things happen with magic? How many have demanded that a filter be put on it?

I think that most of the more knowledgeable Toranites are aware that it doesn't quite work that way, but certainly Lucinda's faith gets tired of explaining it. More importantly, why don't we ban all of the Toranite weapons while we are at it, including their longswords? Other people use them to do horrible things, after all. Start melting down your swords, boys! Then no one will be able to harm anyone else again!

It's an old, old argument that is pretty circular on all sides (I guess it's hard to be circular on only one side though, right? ).

Anyway, arguments and petty differences aside - such as the fact that the blessed undead hunters occasionally come off as frothing zealots when hunting non-evil unliving that have undergone rites for some task of magic (I can see a party of undead hunters trying to end Melizaphei when she was guarding the scrolls of the Weird, for example)) - the real real real important thing to remember with Lucindites is that one of the foundations of their faith is one that most people do not share. To most others, Lucindites are worshiping a sword; magic is inanimate, a force, it is a hammer or a blanket and just another thing that people use to get what they want, like a sharp knife or pretty eyes.

The people that act on that opinion or assumption can be completely non-malicious in their actions, such as destroying an evil artifact. Lucinda, having largely benevolent followers, should have no trouble in her church about the Toranites taking possession of every magical item they come across and deem to be questionable, right? They're in good hands!


Well... that's the main, friction causing thing to me. There's no trouble liking Toranites or being friends with them, but when dealing with magic it is not just a sharp knife to a Lucindite. Everything that is the Al'Noth has passed through Lucinda and so is a part of the sacred body of the goddess. Yeah, quirky right? Any wizard may spit at the constant locking up or destroying magical items that were not even studied first, but smiting them is practically a direct affront on the faith every time they do it. So not only are you not allowed to do it properly with all the caution and respect it deserves, but every item that passes corrupted or tainted by those that have used it adds to your "guilty by association" reputation to some. Maybe it's only the loudest ones!

Think on her alliance with Ilsare, and imagine an Ilsaran and some other, non-evil, perhaps even good creature. The "other," for whatever reason, perhaps its offending content, rips a painting into pieces. But it's just a painting, for crying out loud. It wasn't nice, but it's not holy-war material. There's more than one problem with that, objectively speaking. One is the assumption that it is "just a painting" to everyone. To the right person, that could have been a lifetime of dreams, practice, and prayer.  The more important mistake is the opinion that Ilsare is a goddess of paintings - that it's the ripped canvas or broken marble alone that is the affront.

One time, fine... but all the time? Constantly breaking all of the expressions of love, inspiration, and culture that have lasted centuries in your haste to destroy whatever is in your path? You're going to build up some bad vibes for those that are against "stamping out the spark".

Like I said though - specific events and reasons are all to the good, but often miss the fact that core philosophies are at odds, or end up painting one deity or another as more petty and two-dimensional than is strictly necessary. You have to use that AND all your other ammunition to justify an enemy rating for one good to another good

Remember that your deity relations do not force personality changes, arguments, or emotion of any kind. You don't have to hate an enemy. You just cannot trust them with really anything at all of importance. Of course you can hate them too, if you've reason!

[Alatriel]

Daniella's feelings on this are fairly simple really.  Toran's beliefs are to do things for the good of all, for the greater good of people.  Toran sees Lucinda as being willing to work for the good of magic.  Lucindites, when facing a choice to save an innocent person, or save magic, would save magic, whereas Toranites would save the innocent person.



Of course... this is Daniella's opinion.  That doesn't mean it's Ed sanctioned or Lore approved

[Acacea]

No, that is a normal thing for someone to think about Lucinda or Lucindites in general. It's a little bit of a weird comparison though - save magic itself or one person? That seems a little out of scale and with no uncertainty thrown in... just for sure, the entirety of magic itself as a whole, or your neighbor. It seems a little more likely that the Lucindites would put their own blood on the line for the sake of magic, but then that is the weirdness of one-sided hypothetical situations like that... I could as easily have said, "For Acacea it's easy, she thinks the Toranites are a bunch of hypocritical tin-cans that mess with things they don't understand and break them in the process, thus endangering the lives of those they would try to save while martyring themselves about even their silliest choices as others try to fix their mistakes."



But it would lack a more general application!



Everyone is a part of magic, and capable of learning it. Depending on the alignment of the follower of Lucinda there may be more casualties "for the cause" but most do it because it is their genuine belief that protecting magic IS for the greater good of the world and not a choice between them. Her allies are based around the role of each for that good. Aeridin preserved life, Ilsare inspiration and love, Rofirein order, blah blah. Not everyone does every thing. Aeridin and Lucinda shared the protection of life and split because of events and a chain of disagreements. It wasn't Aeridin saying, "I just realized you're a total babykiller that lets innocents die for the sake of trinkets."



That is why I mention core philosophical differences - Toran could as easily say "I dislike Ilsare because I think she would let somebody die to save a pretty painting," and many might nod in agreement, but would miss the point of the deity and what the painting represents. To save freedom of expression and the sacred spark of inspiration itself... is, for them, part of life itself and for the good of all. It's not about the one painting, but that is the eternal struggle between factions and limited world-views between them. To say "Lucinda hates Toran because he's an idiot," or "Toran dislikes Lucinda because she's evil," misses out on all the things you could use to back it up.

[EdTheKet]

   

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Originally Posted by Acacea                                           While specific events can be the cause in an uneven relationship, or one of mutual dislike, in most occasions dreaming up a single occasion and ignoring the many philosophical differences will make both deities seem that much more petty.

Agreed! In ages past when they were still young though, there was a fall-out.

   

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Really, whatever mysterious event they are alluding to aside, Toran and Lucinda both have reasons to dislike one another in their history. They're both fairly old deities too, as far as the young ones go, and I could see them being more friendly or even allied in years long past, both working toward a common good. The Toran that charged Korryn with undeath to guard forever her burden amidst her magical trials, well... they don't come frothing after her, do they? That's a different Toran than the one current-day Lucindites tend to deal with on their outings. It's now thousands of years later however, and they are always at odds, with lots of examples on both sides.

Yep, and thanks for the examples that follow

   

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I am not going to speak for Toranites in general, but necromancy and undead is a big deal. He has an entire sect of blessed undead hunters, and his followers come up against more stupid evil liches and restless dead than demons. Toranites are a little more reasonable than Voraxians in that they don't (all) mislike magic as a whole, but are instead mostly very compromising on the fact that if we just got rid of necromancy, for crying out loud. How many people have asked why she lets so many bad things happen with magic? How many have demanded that a filter be put on it? I think that most of the more knowledgeable Toranites are aware that it doesn't quite work that way, but certainly Lucinda's faith gets tired of explaining it. More importantly, why don't we ban all of the Toranite weapons while we are at it, including their longswords? Other people use them to do horrible things, after all. Start melting down your swords, boys! Then no one will be able to harm anyone else again! It's an old, old argument that is pretty circular on all sides (I guess it's hard to be circular on only one side though, right? ).

It's up to your characters whatever argument pulls more weight for you, or which your char would dismiss out of hand. Got to love circular arguments!

   

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Anyway, arguments and petty differences aside - such as the fact that the blessed undead hunters occasionally come off as frothing zealots when hunting non-evil unliving that have undergone rites for some task of magic (I can see a party of undead hunters trying to end Melizaphei when she was guarding the scrolls of the Weird, for example)) - the real real real important thing to remember with Lucindites is that one of the foundations of their faith is one that most people do not share. To most others, Lucindites are worshiping a sword; magic is inanimate, a force, it is a hammer or a blanket and just another thing that people use to get what they want, like a sharp knife or pretty eyes. The people that act on that opinion or assumption can be completely non-malicious in their actions, such as destroying an evil artifact. Lucinda, having largely benevolent followers, should have no trouble in her church about the Toranites taking possession of every magical item they come across and deem to be questionable, right? They're in good hands! Well... that's the main, friction causing thing to me. There's no trouble liking Toranites or being friends with them, but when dealing with magic it is not just a sharp knife to a Lucindite. Everything that is the Al'Noth has passed through Lucinda and so is a part of the sacred body of the goddess. Yeah, quirky right? Any wizard may spit at the constant locking up or destroying magical items that were not even studied first, but smiting them is practically a direct affront on the faith every time they do it. So not only are you not allowed to do it properly with all the caution and respect it deserves, but every item that passes corrupted or tainted by those that have used it adds to your "guilty by association" reputation to some. Maybe it's only the loudest ones! Think on her alliance with Ilsare, and imagine an Ilsaran and some other, non-evil, perhaps even good creature. The "other," for whatever reason, perhaps its offending content, rips a painting into pieces. But it's just a painting, for crying out loud. It wasn't nice, but it's not holy-war material. There's more than one problem with that, objectively speaking. One is the assumption that it is "just a painting" to everyone. To the right person, that could have been a lifetime of dreams, practice, and prayer.  The more important mistake is the opinion that Ilsare is a goddess of paintings - that it's the ripped canvas or broken marble alone that is the affront. One time, fine... but all the time? Constantly breaking all of the expressions of love, inspiration, and culture that have lasted centuries in your haste to destroy whatever is in your path? You're going to build up some bad vibes for those that are against "stamping out the spark". Like I said though - specific events and reasons are all to the good, but often miss the fact that core philosophies are at odds, or end up painting one deity or another as more petty and two-dimensional than is strictly necessary. You have to use that AND all your other ammunition to justify an enemy rating for one good to another good Remember that your deity relations do not force personality changes, arguments, or emotion of any kind. You don't have to hate an enemy. You just cannot trust them with really anything at all of importance. Of course you can hate them too, if you've reason!

So true, thanks for these examples!

[Pibemanden]

   

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Originally Posted by Chazzler                                           Too long posts to read... Well, if it hasn't been pointed out yet, I'd bet it has something to do with Lucinda's mistake with Corath and then the birth of Xeen

Xeen is -not- the child of Lucinda and Corath

[Chazzler]

Oh... Thought she was... Oh well, bad memory from reading a statue's description I'd say... Too long ago.

[Unknown User]

   

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Originally Posted by Chazzler                                           Oh... Thought she was... Oh well, bad memory from reading a statue's description I'd say... Too long ago.

I only recently found out the lore had been changed. If you look at the Lore page for Xeen, you'll notice events such as the  Night of Flesh and Magic are slightly adapted.

[Acacea]

Hey, the church had been contesting that myth for decades before it was changed in LORE! I would say there is no reason for there not to still be stories or rumors about it, but there are probably stories and rumors about everything under the sun.

[jadewillow]

Thanks everyone for your replies. I guess I had no idea how complicated playing a Lucindite would be



Follow up question then. Since Lucinda is the channel for all Al'Noth, are there any particular uses of the Al'Noth that would be frowned up? In Lucinda's eyes could there be an evil use of it? What about any particular schools. Is there something about Conjuration that Lucinda does not like?



Thanks again.

[Dorganath]

The uses of Magic that Lucinda doesn't like are such uses that damage it or even bend it into "unnatural" ways (think abuse of powers). Likewise, things that twist or pervert magic are big no-nos.  They feel about magic as Aeridin (and Aeridinites) feel about life.



Lucinda and Lucindites embrace all schools, including Necromancy, so Conjuration is perfectly fine to Lucinda and her followers.

[drakogear]

   

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Originally Posted by jadewillow                                           Thanks everyone for your replies. I guess I had no idea how complicated playing a Lucindite would be Follow up question then. Since Lucinda is the channel for all Al'Noth, are there any particular uses of the Al'Noth that would be frowned up? In Lucinda's eyes could there be an evil use of it? What about any particular schools. Is there something about Conjuration that Lucinda does not like? Thanks again.

Think I know the answer to that.



Question Summery: Is there any form of magic deemed evil by lucinda? (If I'm reading that right)



Answer: Uh... No. To Lucinda, all magic and use of the Al'Noth, regardless of origin (School, artifact, ect.) is neither inherently good nor evil.



Though with that said... makes me wander why Lucinda is not True Neutral rather that Neutral Good. Oh well, just another of those mysteries I guess.

[drakogear]

   

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Originally Posted by Dorganath                                           The uses of Magic that Lucinda doesn't like are such uses that damage it or even bend it into "unnatural" ways (think abuse of powers). Likewise, things that twist or pervert magic are big no-nos.

Oops, guess I forgot about that kind of magic. Oh well, you beat me to the post anyways. so yeah.

[Acacea]

Playing any character of faith is complicated. It's just our interpretations and outsider views that make it simple, like anything. Being Lucindite is drilled very simply down to a passion for magic and all it represents.



There is no evil magic, but there are evil magic users. There are different Lucindites that react differently to this, depending on their own alignments and tolerance levels. In other words, blood magic sacrifices to demon gods is not necessarily a magic-breaking issue, but it does make you a very undesirable person and threat to quality of life, right? Not to mention that the people you're sacrificing are all a part of magic, too. It is not the primary task of Lucindites to hunt down evil magic users, however, as there are *plenty* of people and faiths in the world that are eager to do so.



The schools of magic will be gone in the MMO and so there is already less distinction, but in NWN's terms they are equal. Before the church reformed after the war, the tower of magic was led by 8 grandmasters - one for each school of magic. All were greatly respected in their fields, including the Pale, who was the grandmaster of Necromancy. Some were exactly what you would expect as representations of their school, while others a surprise. The State of Three, transmutation, was as changeable in temper and unpredictable as one might expect, while the Effigy of Four - evocation - was startlingly mild of manner and gentle with his application of force and the elements.



The only one that was given any head over the other was the Broken Rune - abjuration - because of its ability to break the power of any school. She was the assumed leader of the rest by a margin.



I only mention this defunct organization to illustrate that even when the schools had a heavy presence in the church, there was merit and worth in all of them. That some are less respected and more heavily abused is just how it goes. You could easily argue (and they do) the number of villages burned down, third degree burns incurred, and limbs lost to frostbite because of misjudged uses of evocation, which is why it should all be used with care and for its own sake, not as a tool for personal gain. It's what you do with it and why, so everyone has a different threshold of what is acceptable.



Yeah, it's not at cool to be using people's remains like that, but what if you'd dreamed up an organ donor card that stated, "These remains may be used for a period of this long after death and then must be interred in..." and so on? (Hilarious thought, with possibilities!) As it harm none, right?



There are a lot of ways to interpret a single follower's tasks, though. You can worship by studying and creating new spells, by drawing out the love of magic in others, by teaching, by being an example, by enchanting items or studying magical phenomena. As a whole it is of everyone's utmost concern to deal with magical disturbances, and to prevent damage of any kind to the Al'Noth, but most people do not encounter these every day, just as Toranites do not encounter legions of demons every day.



Like an Ilsaran may worship by sculpting, meditating, playing a song, or treating every tryst with the passion it deserves, you don't have to go far to find a way to worship Lucinda if you are looking at it from the view of someone who loves magic. Just do it.



Listing all the possible iterations makes it complicated.

[Dorganath]

   

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Originally Posted by drakogear                                           Though with that said... makes me wander why Lucinda is not True Neutral rather that Neutral Good.

That was actually something strongly considered when Lucinda was re-written most recently, but in the end it was decided that changing her alignment mid-stream like that caused more problems than it solved.

[Acacea]

More specifically to the discussion of evil magic users, because I feel like this subject is more character-filtered by alignment and philosophy...!

An NPC who aided Acacea a couple times (after mistakenly being considered an enemy) was a practitioner of some nasty forms of magic in her past and was ashamed of all that had ever come of her attempts at using magic, as it was always used for the suffering of some kind or another. She did the equivalent of taking a vow of silence, so that she would not speak another word of evil. She never touched magic again or her gifts again, because they are all associated with hate and darkness.



Acacea is Lucindite. To her, it is not merely a belief but a flat fact that there is no such thing as evil magic - people make it evil; people change it the notion of the arcane from joy in the mysteries to something reprehensible and twisted. To her, it is Potential and Possibility, as whatever is before the composition may be called Inspiration. It is not her duty but her need and love to allow someone to use their gifts without negative association.



However, not being a wizard or able to really understand it in theory, this meant that at some point she needed to understand how it worked. So Acacea persuaded the ex-magic user and her partner to try and involve her in a ritual. Some very bad juju was involved, it drew up some serious negative mess, and in general left Acacea a little tortured and bleeding and horrified. And of course, the silent one forced once again to dirty her own hands.



But it was for a purpose. It was done in a safe zone, where no others could possibly be injured by it, under the eyes of the goddess in an area consecrated to her. They took precautions, and Acacea's purpose in having these things done to her was to understand the parts that didn't need to happen, what could be changed, and how it could be done differently without giving up the woman's heritage. If some things went over her head, she could take it to the church without judgement. Someone would help her. In the end, while they had a limited amount of time, the practitioner's  feet were set on the beginning of the path to accepting her gifts and using them differently. It was a long way from loving it, a long way from her magic bringing her joy, but it was a start.



In the desert, Acacea practices sand magic. This is technically, among other things, blood magic, as it relies on an energy drain from another (willing) source. For a long time Acacea didn't like relying on this even in her minor bardic applications of it, and would at all times use herself as the source. If blood was required, she used her own. Her left bicep is quite scarred from the amount of times she has done this. She was actually defeating the purpose in this, as it averted no pain or evil done (because there was none to begin with) and was essentially doing something difficult and straining to fake something efficient and smooth for the sake of propriety. It was already set up to be willing, linked, and with gifts to offset what was taken so that it was a fair exchange. In the long run she did more harm to herself and yes, the magic involved, by forcing it to be self-contained.



Love and passion is what unites Ilsare and Lucinda. Joy in the Art and joy in the Arts, as it were... You can totally have evil bards, hundreds of them! But Ilsare's purpose is not the elimination of evil composers, is it? Heh. You get rid of them for the same reason everybody else does when it comes up.



I would have cleared Acacea's deity field in a heartbeat if her alignment were changed in NWN like that with a snap of the fingers, because the discussion on whether or not to do so is akin to deciding whether or not Corath was in fact neutral all this time. You either are or you aren't, and you change letters according to fit, not according to how many problems it solves. The letters relate strongly to your modus operandi - filter tenets through race and alignment to see that Aeridin is not going to holy war beat up shapeshifters just because. There is plenty of room for neutral mages in the current setup and I am all thumbs up for them, and the already existing neutral wizardy god of knowledge. Thankfully the possibility was prepped a tiny bit IC and so even should it change on paper, Acacea would, if alive, remain firm in her belief that she acts in the true intent of the goddess rather than the administrative alignment changes of the church. It would at least leave her playable should that occur.

End long character specific filtering. You will encounter all sorts, especially between DMs that hold different views of the church and represent them on opposite ends of the spectrum.

PS Last post, promise.

[drakogear]

True, there are no dough many Lucindite clerics already and some if not most are possible LG or CG not to mention the Lucindite Paladins. Being TN would prevent Lucinda from having Paladins being that LG is two steps from TN.