The World of Layonara  Forums

Author Topic: Magic Missile and Seeker Arrow  (Read 856 times)

Aerimor

Magic Missile and Seeker Arrow
« on: August 04, 2012, 08:27:13 pm »
Other GM's please feel free to weigh in on this with your opinions.

But this is an FYI for anyone on any of my quests.

Spells and abilities that automatically hit their target, such as Seeker Arrow and Magic Missile do not allow you to target specific body parts.

Seeker Arrow for effects is very similar to Magic Missile, by DnD read Seeker Arrow even says it turns corners and defeats concealment, just as Magic Missile does.

And this is the read of the Magic Missile spell in DnD:

Magic Missile :: d20srd.org

A missile of magical energy darts forth from your fingertip and strikes its target, dealing 1d4+1 points of force damage.

The missile strikes unerringly, even if the target is in melee combat or has less than total cover or total concealment. Specific parts of a creature can’t be singled out. Inanimate objects are not damaged by the spell.

And yes, for me you can't use a Magic Missile to target a lever or button (inanimate object.)  I do allow Seeker Arrows to target such, trade offs of the two different abilities.  For me, Magic Missile hits phased objects (ethereal) while a Seeker Arrow is not guaranteed of such.


As with all judgment rule calls, they are the domain of the DM running the event, please remember to respect them and your GM's, no one is trying to belittle your powers.

Further edification for my quests: Deflect Arrows will stop any one missile projectile (even Seeker Arrow) if the reflex roll is made.  After all if the target catches the arrow in her hand, the arrow still made contact with the target.  And Spell Resistance can negate Magic Missiles.  Parry will also work against Seeker Arrow, but would be ineffective against Magic Missile, unless the shield was enchanted with "Shield" spell magic or the like.

As always I am willing to work with inventive ideas and actions without proscribed mechanics to them.  Just keep in mind I also try to balance the level and intent of powers with the game world, other classes and my take of purpose and intent of the abilities.

Deflect Arrows: Feats :: d20srd.org
 

Hellblazer

Re: Magic Missile and Seeker Arrow
« Reply #1 on: August 04, 2012, 09:49:01 pm »
Quote from: Aerimor
Other GM's please feel free to weigh in on this with your opinions.

But this is an FYI for anyone on any of my quests.

Spells and abilities that automatically hit their target, such as Seeker Arrow and Magic Missile do not allow you to target specific body parts.

Seeker Arrow for effects is very similar to Magic Missile, by DnD read Seeker Arrow even says it turns corners and defeats concealment, just as Magic Missile does.

And this is the read of the Magic Missile spell in DnD:

Magic Missile :: d20srd.org

A missile of magical energy darts forth from your fingertip and strikes its target, dealing 1d4+1 points of force damage.

The missile strikes unerringly, even if the target is in melee combat or has less than total cover or total concealment. Specific parts of a creature can’t be singled out. Inanimate objects are not damaged by the spell.

And yes, for me you can't use a Magic Missile to target a lever or button (inanimate object.)  I do allow Seeker Arrows to target such, trade offs of the two different abilities.  For me, Magic Missile hits phased objects (ethereal) while a Seeker Arrow is not guaranteed of such.


As with all judgment rule calls, they are the domain of the DM running the event, please remember to respect them and your GM's, no one is trying to belittle your powers.

Further edification for my quests: Deflect Arrows will stop any one missile projectile (even Seeker Arrow) if the reflex roll is made.  After all if the target catches the arrow in her hand, the arrow still made contact with the target.  And Spell Resistance can negate Magic Missiles.  Parry will also work against Seeker Arrow, but would be ineffective against Magic Missile, unless the shield was enchanted with "Shield" spell magic or the like.

As always I am willing to work with inventive ideas and actions without proscribed mechanics to them.  Just keep in mind I also try to balance the level and intent of powers with the game world, other classes and my take of purpose and intent of the abilities.

Deflect Arrows: Feats :: d20srd.org


I think the safest thing would be to leave this at the GM discretion.

On many quest with rain and tyillaan Including tyillaan's CDQ to become an Arcane archer, the use of the seeker arrows being guided to a specific point was allowed by the gm. I can understand that on other quests by an other gm, it may not be so. But to force a complete shut down of this, takes the think out of the box and the ability of one specialized mage or aa to modify their pre-existing abilities through rp and magic.

If the other class has deflect arrows then they will already roll a dc against seeker arrow by default I think. So if it's rped and that said monster has deflect arrows, it's appropriate to represent that by doing a roll to see if that npc/monster would be able to deflect it.

Jilseponie Wyndon

Re: Magic Missile and Seeker Arrow
« Reply #2 on: August 04, 2012, 09:49:34 pm »
Thank you for posting this, as I have encountered this problem only once before, some clarification on a few things would be appreciated.  If everyone with knowledge would please give their take on it.  I would like to use the situation encountered on the Destroyers Curse Quest for the base.

Now, the difference between Called Shot and Seeker

I understand Called Shot is mechanical in targeting specfic parts of the body to do specific things.  Arm: Reduce Attack, Leg: Reduce Speed.  Seeker Arrow can not miss its target.  In effect I guess its the ultimate "Called Shot".  Ok, It can't miss ... it doesn't do alot of damage either.  My main use of the Seeker is mostly role play.  I pick a target.  Not a Broad Side of the Barn kind of target, but maybe the rope holding the bale of hay hanging from the upper window.  Thus with a person, I am not going for mass of body.  I didn't want to reduce the mans attack nor his speed.  I wanted to disable him.  Stop running/using a weapon.  Like you stated, for hitting levers and such.  Its all I use Seeker for.  And the called shot abilities, such as what they are mechanically used for, are used as such.

Abilities used in role play

Yep, its an arrow, magical in nature, but still an arrow, I understand that, it can be deflected.  I know monks have that kind of feat and its expected.  But what I also knew, (excerpt from your feat link) "You must be aware of the attack and not flat footed." My character was within a group of trees, concealed and in stealth (hide @ 50+). The Monk released his hold on the player and started to run past a group of adventurers.  Would he not be preoccupied with those before him, the attacks upon him, to see an arrow flying out of the shadow of the  trees ?  Would he be aware of the attack from the trees?  Or Perhaps "aware of the attack" means of all attacks within the group? I see it as a sneak attack type thing that could cause something like a coup de grace (He was deflecting another shot and was being tackled at the same time) thus, wouldn't he be unaware?

Apology and information

Yes, the Dm was quite busy and I'm sure we threw them a number of curves.  If it appeared as though I was arguing, it was not my intention as such as that takes away time from the quest.  What I was looking for was just an explanation (short) *Points up* for the situation above.  And that's all I am looking for here, for when I have the chance to use such an ability in the future, I want to be able to execute a maneuver properly to avoid any confusion and problems.  I want to know what my limits are with these abilities as I'm sure other AA's would as well.  Diva did an awesome job, I know I would be going crazy when all kinds of things started going haywire at once.  And me asking questions in the middle of a complicated situation did not help and I'm sorry.

No ranting, no raving, an apology, and future instructions/suggestions.  The AA can do so much, and I need to know what my limitations are.  So your suggestions and comments are more than welcome.
 

 

Alatriel

Re: Magic Missile and Seeker Arrow
« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2012, 10:06:17 pm »
In your scenario, perhaps I can explain a little better this specific issue.  One, the target was moving, not still, even though mechanically we were going round by round and visually speaking we were all standing still.  He was an epic level monk, moving at very high speeds, and yes, he was expecting attacks.  He also had a very high listen, which aided his ability to know there was an impending attack.  The confusion comes in with defining your target.  Yes, I'm sure that Jilseponie could easily shoot a bullseye from probably a pretty great distance, but the bullseye on a target probably wouldn't also be trying to deflect or dodge an arrow with epic monk speed and abilities.  Even with a called shot, which is what, to me, seemed like it was getting confused, it would still have to penetrate the AC.

That being said, Jilseponie's arrow actually did hit him, just not necessarily where she intended, compensating for movement and struggle.

SehKy's first arrow during that round "hit" him, except that he deflected it per monk abilities.  The next 2 arrows that were fired in that round, SehKy's second shot, and Jil's first- SehKy rolled a 1 so he missed.  Jil's hit, just not as a called shot- as a seeker.  She hit her target, but the target was not the size of a dime, it was the size of a target- a person.  It's similar to having an actual archery target.  The goal is the bullseye, but as long as you hit the target, it's still a hit.

I hope that clears things up a bit.
 

Jilseponie Wyndon

Re: Magic Missile and Seeker Arrow
« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2012, 10:26:20 pm »
Ok, this is confusing.  I specified Seeker, which doesn't miss, yet you said it still has to penetrate the AC.  So if it doesn't penetrate the AC, then basically its a miss ... but Seeker Shots don't ...

And seeker ... I choose a target, despite movement/struggle, its a seeker ... why would it hit another target?  This is magical, yes?

 Just looking for clarity.
 

Alatriel

Re: Magic Missile and Seeker Arrow
« Reply #5 on: August 04, 2012, 10:28:22 pm »
Quote
Even with a called shot, which is what, to me, seemed like it was getting confused, it would still have to penetrate the AC.
 (I was talking about Called Shot)

Exactly

And you did choose a target.  You chose the man.  You hit the man.  But you didn't roll a 20, so no bullseye on the moving target.
 

Gunther

Re: Magic Missile and Seeker Arrow
« Reply #6 on: August 04, 2012, 10:48:27 pm »
While we're discussing that particular encounter, I'd like to ask if its the common practice to pit ability rolls versus skills (ie str versus discipline).  Gunther has a pretty high strength, but if it were pitted against his discipline, it would be a hopeless contest.

I've seen it before on other quests with other GMs and it always struck me as a pretty uneven matchup.  Say a generic character, not Gunther, has a strength of 36 (giving a +13 I think).  Pitting this against a discipline skill of 35 is then an impossibility for the strength user.

Strength against strength, discipline against discipline, like versus like these are equitable matchups.

Same thing with say, strength against a fortitude save, or reflex,or willpower.  A character can have a +25 to fort saves, strength maxes out at something like +15.  There is very little chance for a character as strong as a titan to have a chance against the fort save.
 

Alatriel

Re: Magic Missile and Seeker Arrow
« Reply #7 on: August 04, 2012, 10:57:07 pm »
That's a different topic, Gunther, and we can take it to another thread if you want
 

Hellblazer

Re: Magic Missile and Seeker Arrow
« Reply #8 on: August 04, 2012, 11:06:25 pm »
Maybe we could have an official ruling as what is considered the target here. Let me give an example. Back in highschool I was part of the archery team extra curricular activites, yeah.. I know.. sucks. A lot of the time to pass time after the practice we used to play darts but with our bows and arrows. We had a chart on the target that delimited the target exactly as a darts board and we needed to aim precicely at where we wanted to get the points needed to win, without going over. So bassically on our taget, we also had a specific intended target ( I truly sucked at that game lol).

Now there's nothing in the rule book that delimit what the target is. Mechanically it's the full body unless you use an ability to taget a specific point. BUT in rp, the intended target could be an eye, throat, leg, right butt cheek what ever. So what takes precedence here. RPed intended target or the mechanical aspect of the target? In my sense if your aiming for the eye, your aiming for the eye, and if you had a magical arrow that always hit the target you were aiming at (the eye in this case) that's where the arrow would go. The arrow cannot decide by itself.. hey I know she aimed for the eye but I'm going to go for the foot instead.

This is the definition of the seeker arrow from wizard of the coast 3.5 rulebook

Quote
Seeker Arrow (Sp): At 4th level, an arcane archer can launch an arrow once per day at a target known to her within range, and the arrow travels to the target, even around corners*. Only an unavoidable obstacle or the limit of the arrow’s range prevents the arrow’s flight. This ability negates cover* and concealment modifiers, but otherwise the attack is rolled normally. Using this ability is a standard action (and shooting the arrow is part of the action).


And from our own LORE

Quote
The character gains the ability to launch an arrow 1x/day that cannot miss its target. At 6th level this ability can be used 2x/day. This arrow is magically created at the moment the character uses this ability.


I'd like to note here that the only thing that can negate the arrow effectiveness from the official rule book, is the range and unavoidable object (ie the person shut himself down in a room without any windows that is set on top of the tallest mountain on Layonara and your at the very bottom.)

So without taking away the ability for a spell caster to modify his own spells or a bard to modify his songs through magic, we should try to find an official stance on what is the target. Is it where the aa aims exactly, or generally in the vicinity of where the AA aim. Then the rest can be left to the gm to decide on his/her quest if he/she allows it or not.

*magic missiles can not turn a corner nor can it be targeted at a target that is behind cover (ie a wall) It needs direct line of sight. Total cover: If you don’t have line of effect to your target he is considered to have total cover from you. You can’t make an attack against a target that has total cover.

Aerimor

Re: Magic Missile and Seeker Arrow
« Reply #9 on: August 05, 2012, 04:48:38 am »
If you could target "Left eye" and always hit, it would be an instance death shot in most cases.

This is a low level AA power, this is intended to me an auto hit function against an opponent for your normal damage.

It is way too powerful if you can called shot and auto hit.  This is not its intention. Hence why I gave you similar verbage with magic missile.


Remember this is one par with other low level PRC abilities.  I believe reason and balance always overrules, rules-lawyering by arguable word-smithing and favorable interpretations.

So once again, on my event, things are exactly as I listed below.  On other GM events, it is how they decide to interrupt things.  Unless there is a ruling, which I do not see as needed.

Being able to not miss is a useful tool, especially on that fleeing target with one hit from being KO'd. That is exactly what a low level PRC ability should be, useful, flavored for class and neither unbalancing or worthless (see Ki Strike.)

Glad to have helped.
 

Jilseponie Wyndon

Re: Magic Missile and Seeker Arrow
« Reply #10 on: August 05, 2012, 12:28:56 pm »
Thank you Aerimor, I knew from previous experience that the ability could not be used in any way to kill a target.  But Alatriel, your follow up still has me confused (I think its the Blonde in me)  you said:

"And you did choose a target.  You chose the man.  You hit the man.  But  you didn't roll a 20, so no bullseye on the moving target."

I chose a target on the man.  I chose an appendage using the seeker arrow.  So, does the ability only work for the target as a whole (The full body) or can it be used for parts? (Arms, legs, weapon being held)

"Jilseponie's arrow actually did hit him, just not necessarily where she intended, compensating for movement and struggle."

Assuming the target can be an arm, leg, weapon held, being a Seeker Arrow, why would it hit elsewhere than the target selected?  That would be like shooting the swinging pendulum on a clock and hitting the clock face, which was not the target.

Then this was not answered.

I specified Seeker, which doesn't miss, yet you  said it still has to penetrate the AC.  So if it doesn't penetrate the  AC, then basically its a miss ... but Seeker Shots don't miss ...

I am trying to get a good handle on how I can use this shot properly as it seems to be only useful on quests.  When actually used, it seems to take up about 3 rounds to complete the shot. (The Build UP, the long shot as it goes for target, circles twice, then hits, cool-down before next round).  Hail of arrows never gets used, because it draws EVERYTHING in the map to me.  And the Death Arrow save is so low, the chances it working are like 1 out of 50 for epic characters.  Its a one shot per rest. (perhaps this could be an epic feat added in on another request thread) How many times is it going to be used in a quest battle? (No hijacking the thread, just explaining why I am pushing for clarification)

So, just looking for some answers on the Seeker Arrow so I can properly use the ability.
 

Rowana

Re: Magic Missile and Seeker Arrow
« Reply #11 on: August 05, 2012, 12:36:52 pm »
Just to clarify, this is going to be a GM to GM preference. If a GM on her/his quest says "the rules say X and that's how I'm handling it" that's what needs to be respected. If another GM allows the skill to be used in a different way, that's also fine.

In a PnP setting GMs often have house rules or ways of interpreting things. This is one of those trade offs with having multiple GMs in a single PnP-esque setting. Example, Milty stated up front (at least at ne point) that his interpretation of the way some of the magic skills work do not work like most other GMs interpretation. It would be nice if all of these can be defined up front so players will know up front but many GMs don't realize there's even a need (always done a certain way where they were and didn't realize it was necessarily different for others).

As players, there's no reason not to ask or clarification but we need to be flexible and accepting of a GM's ruling. There is not going to be any 'global' take over of how a GM interprets the rules and runs their quests. We have enough trouble getting enough quests on the calendars to keep players happy, I really don't think putting another hurdle on the table is a good option for us. However, the main issue is this is something we've always allowed GMs to function on their own quests. Overrides are only used in situations of Lore or social complications.

Thank you, that is all. Carry on with your previous scheduled clarifications.

~row
 

Alatriel

Re: Magic Missile and Seeker Arrow
« Reply #12 on: August 05, 2012, 01:13:20 pm »
Alright, let me start over.  When I said the thing about penetrating AC, I was talking about Called Shot.  Not Seeker.  There is also a difference between choosing a target, and aiming.  If you are firing at an archery target you have a target with many rings and a small circle in the center.  You are aiming for the small circle in the middle.  But if you hit any of the rings it's still considered a hit.

This is the direct quote of what happened in the quest, taken from logs.

[Sat Aug 04 19:40:45] Diva   : SehKy's arrow misses, but Jil's hits him in the arm as he tries to deflect while Naldin grabs a hold of his ankle

You aimed for the man's leg. That was the bullseye that you were shooting for on the target- the man.  The man saw the arrow coming for him and attempted to deflect it because he's a monk- unfortunately, he'd already used that ability.  So his arm passed in front of the arrow.  Yes, the arrow is magic, but it wasn't going to stop in mid-air, move around all wacky and go around the man's hand so that it could pinpoint the man's leg.  No, it stuck in his arm as his arm passed the flight path.  I compensated for struggle, which included the fact that the man was not going to simply stand there and allow the arrow to hit him.  There is a balance to everything, even an arrow that can't miss.  The arrow flew where Jil sent it.  

What Aerimor is explaining is that if you are going to choose "a target on a man" then how is choosing a small place on a leg or a shoulder any different than choosing an eye or a throat?  Those would be instant kills.  In my opinion, and the way that it will be handled on my quests, is that you are choosing a target that is a life-force.  The magic of that arrow is sent to penetrate that life force.  You can choose your target and you can obviously aim it.  So you are welcome to say "I'm firing a seeker arrow at that man, and I'm aiming for his left shoulder."  You will still have to roll whatever for skill to see if you get the arrow where you're aiming, etc.  But if your seeker is going to penetrate the life force of that man, it will stop when it does so.  From what I'm reading it does not automatically land a critical blow or do max damage.  So all of that has to be taken into account.  Yes, it's magic, but even magic has its limitations.

Quote from: Jilseponie Wyndon
Thank you Aerimor, I knew from previous experience that the ability could not be used in any way to kill a target.  But Alatriel, your follow up still has me confused (I think its the Blonde in me)  you said:

"And you did choose a target.  You chose the man.  You hit the man.  But  you didn't roll a 20, so no bullseye on the moving target."

I chose a target on the man.  I chose an appendage using the seeker arrow.  So, does the ability only work for the target as a whole (The full body) or can it be used for parts? (Arms, legs, weapon being held)

"Jilseponie's arrow actually did hit him, just not necessarily where she intended, compensating for movement and struggle."

Assuming the target can be an arm, leg, weapon held, being a Seeker Arrow, why would it hit elsewhere than the target selected?  That would be like shooting the swinging pendulum on a clock and hitting the clock face, which was not the target.

Then this was not answered.

I specified Seeker, which doesn't miss, yet you  said it still has to penetrate the AC.  So if it doesn't penetrate the  AC, then basically its a miss ... but Seeker Shots don't miss ...

I am trying to get a good handle on how I can use this shot properly as it seems to be only useful on quests.  When actually used, it seems to take up about 3 rounds to complete the shot. (The Build UP, the long shot as it goes for target, circles twice, then hits, cool-down before next round).  Hail of arrows never gets used, because it draws EVERYTHING in the map to me.  And the Death Arrow save is so low, the chances it working are like 1 out of 50 for epic characters.  Its a one shot per rest. (perhaps this could be an epic feat added in on another request thread) How many times is it going to be used in a quest battle? (No hijacking the thread, just explaining why I am pushing for clarification)

So, just looking for some answers on the Seeker Arrow so I can properly use the ability.
 

Dorganath

Re: Magic Missile and Seeker Arrow
« Reply #13 on: August 05, 2012, 01:34:57 pm »
For what it's worth, I agree that this doesn't warrant an "official" decision.

Most of my own feelings are echoed above.

In my opinion, a "target" is an object, but not a specific part of that object. In my opinion, a Seeker Arrow strikes its target unerringly, but not some specific point on that target. The same goes for Magic Missile. Seeker Arrow is not the ultimate Called Shot. I also don't see much sense in combining them in an RP sense.  One is a matter of magical guidance and the other is a matter of skill.  Not that magic isn't cool, but once you put an arrow in the hands of magic, one's skill is no longer a factor.

That's not to say I would specifically exclude such a combination, but it would not be an automatic success.  The arrow may strike the intended target, as a whole object, but not necessarily sever the tendon on the target's sword arm...not without some extra-special circumstances and some fantastic rolls.  If someone wants to do that, they can try a Called Shot and risk missing completely.

Anyway, these are my opinions and it seems most GMs who have commented so far hover around the same sort of general idea. To echo what Rowana said, I don't think we need to take the flexibility to handle things on a situational basis out of the hands of our GMs.  To give an official, global ruling on something like this would also take flexibility and creativity away from players, as it forces us all into a slightly smaller "box" than before, and limits our options to the mechanical.

If I were to say anything remotely "official" it would be that situations like this require players to work together with GMs to ask and describe in detail what they would like to accomplish and how they will accomplish that.  In doing so, remember that the same GM may have a different answer in two different situations.  Of course in doing so, players need to abide by the decisions of the GM.

Years and years ago, I had a PnP GM who would let us attempt just about anything.  The stuff that wasn't even remotely possible would usually fail immediately, but he rarely took anything off the table in advance.  There was always room for refinement and creativity, even when it "broke" his game (which I've done at least once).
 

Script Wrecked

Re: Magic Missile and Seeker Arrow
« Reply #14 on: August 05, 2012, 01:59:25 pm »
Mechanically, that is, in-game, you can't use Called Shot and Seeker Arrow at the same time.

You can either click on the Called Shot icon and then click on the target for a Called Shot, or you can click on the Seeker Arrow icon and then click on the target for a Seeker Arrow shot.
 

Jilseponie Wyndon

Re: Magic Missile and Seeker Arrow
« Reply #15 on: August 05, 2012, 03:59:26 pm »
Thank you, that gives me a much better view on the shot.  Guess I'm just thickheaded.  Apologies if I caused any frustrations.
 

 

anything