The World of Layonara  Forums

Author Topic: Monstrous races allowed in Center?  (Read 1349 times)

Anamnesis

Re: Monstrous races allowed in Center?
« Reply #20 on: April 11, 2012, 09:29:40 am »
Raelyn sits by the fire and remembers clearly her encounter with Feefty One Ear, one ear because merciless mercenaries and adventurers take up the bounty of a man, slay his kind based on their prejudice of the race and believe themselves to be the superior being.

Admittedly, Raelyn has been part of the group who has believed this way, until she met Feefty One Ear, and realized how much suffering he has endured at the hands of those like her. Teaching her all the more why the Conducts of virtue are so important, and should be examined constantly on a case by case basis.

 Empathy, Humility, and Restraint should never be forgotten.

I am saying that if you are to truly consider and take to heart the dogma of any god, you can not do so selectively when it suits you. Granted it can be harder to do when there is not a DM around to act on behalf of the monstrous race but that does not mean that as a player we can not keep the virtues in mind and try to still find an alternative before we bash them.

To blindly go at them without RPing trying to resolve the conflict before hand, is no more than murder, and evil itself. And if a DM were to see such actions. I would hope that they would add an evil point to a character who acts in such a manner.

This is my 2 trues worth...
Elohanna Min A'Litae, Priestess of Aeridin
Breanna Shadowraven, Wizard/Rogue of Folian S'pae
Cord, Bard of Ilsare
Melaa A'nadivian, Ranger of Folian S'pae
 

Dorganath

Re: Monstrous races allowed in Center?
« Reply #21 on: April 11, 2012, 09:31:47 am »
@Nehetsrev, that is a very modern way of looking at it which does not necessarily apply well to the setting. Someone who advocates for kind and equal treatment of monstrous races would likely be ridiculed by the masses and even betrayed by the trust given to monstrous races. Likewise, such comments on the divine and how the principles apply equally to all is also very much a modern, real-world sort of perspective.  

In Layonara, there are real biases along racial boundaries that have some actual basis in fact.  Even Aeridin, who teaches to respect life, would take issue with corrupted forms.  Grand teaches all dwarves should be destroyed. There are plenty more examples of this sort of divine bias-as-dogma.  

There are plenty of reasons for mortals as well among those who do not follow a single deity (i.e. the vast majority of Layonara's population).  Orcs are an aggressive species who, when they're not raiding other populations, are planning raids on other populations or are practicing their fighting skills to use on raids. Something similar can be said of dark elves. The list goes on.  

"But wait, Dorg...you're sterotyping."

Yes...yes I am. On Layonara (and really most fantasy setting), the "norm" for any given race is a stereotype, and it is, in fact, the rare individual who breaks from that norm...and at great personal risk, I'd add.

Steering back to goblins, they are perhaps one of the most civilized of the monstrous races, with societies and social structures. They are, however, cunning creatures, and they understand that gaining and maintaining power or status usually involves instilling fear or terror in others. In terms of alignment, goblins have Chaotic tendencies and trend Neutral or Evil. It is no mystery why they are generally disliked and mistrusted. That said, a goblin's instinct for survival will generally allow it to find its "place" within a society among non-goblins, even if that place is low and not given the same set of rights and privileges that might be afforded to non-monstrous humanoid races.

Regarding a Toranite genocide of goblins (or any monstrous race), they would not hesitate to beat back a raid that was threatening a town.  They might even take the fight to the goblin tribe if the threat was persistent and somewhat regular. I would expect that they exercise restraint and a couple other key points in the Conducts, such as in the case of the tribe fleeing or some other extenuating circumstances.  Left to its own, a goblin tribe is not really a threat to anyone, so there's no sense in wiping them out from a Toranite point of view. Perhaps they'd even reach a treaty with the tribe on behalf of the town.  The tribe may well agree to this for reasons of wanting to live.  Even so, this would be an "exception" for the case of a single tribe and would not automatically apply to all goblins.  Likewise, should that tribe ever threaten the town (or whomever) in the future, Toranites would likely opt to once again fight back the goblins in order to protect those in their charge. As well, a Toranite might try to drive a so-called civilized goblin out of town as a way of protecting the town from the creature's treachery.  These are not the sole possibilities, but they are likely.

Regardless of how one may try to spin it, monstrous races are considered so for a reason, and that reason has nothing to do with appearance. It just so happens that the races that are considered monstrous also have very distinct appearances which make them readily identifiable. Regardless of how PCs may choose to portray their monstrous race characters, the norms for a given race hold true far more than they do not.  To see a goblin and suspect treachery is valid. To see an orc and expect savagery and impending attach is valid.  To see a dark elf and suspect a whole host of evil and negative things is valid.

PCs are perfectly within their rights to embrace every monstrous race as just "other kinds of people" and attribute all the compassion and deference one would give to a member of a non-monstrous race. Bear in mind that this sort of attitude is not shared by the vast majority of Layonara's population. Also bear in mind that it's just a matter of time before one of those embraces comes with a dagger that ends up buried in one's back.

So to summarize...

Monstrous races permitted in Center: Yes
Monstrous races treated with kindness in Center: Generally not
Monstrous races treated with suspicion in Center: Most likely
Monstrous races arrested in Center: No, but Center doesn't have any sort of constabulary
Monstrous races driven out of Center: Probably
Monstrous races tolerated in Center: Possibly, depending
 

Nehetsrev

Re: Monstrous races allowed in Center?
« Reply #22 on: April 11, 2012, 10:20:18 am »
@ Dorganath - I'm just curious as to which part of my post you're refering to as being "a very modern way of looking at it"?
 

gilshem ironstone

Re: Monstrous races allowed in Center?
« Reply #23 on: April 11, 2012, 10:27:59 am »
I am not Dorg, but I think that applying divine laws equally to all races is a -very- modern idea.  To see a soul in an orc would be a very modern idea, in my opinion.  In the United States, laws and values were not applied equally to all humans only 50 years ago; in South Africa, 25 years.  These are other humans mind you, not orcs and golbins who have a long, antagonistic relationship with humans on Layonara.

I am not saying that radicals are not possible in Layonara, but they would be that: radicals, likely on the fringe of society with a very tough and long path to walk to gain any sort of headway towards the notion that orcs, goblins, etc... have souls like ours and deserve empathy and compassion.

My two cents.  Hope it makes sense.  I did not sleep much last night.
 

Dorganath

Re: Monstrous races allowed in Center?
« Reply #24 on: April 11, 2012, 11:31:49 am »
Pretty much what gilshem said.  That, and evoking Martin Luther King, Jr. (and seemingly a host of concepts associated with his famous speech) to me reflected a more modernized way of looking at race relations in the Layonara setting.  In this case, "modern" refers to 21st century Earth attitudes in Western civilization...which is somewhat natural given our player demographics.  That said, such views would not be widely held nor would they be broadly accepted, if accepted at all, by the vast majority of Layonara's non-monstrous population. Even among most clergy (with a very few exceptions), such an egalitarian application of divine concepts simply isn't found.  Aeridinites don't give much positive consideration to corrupted forms, nor are they likely to respect the life of Corathites.  As I stated, Grand's followers would likely try to destroy every dwarf they encounter. Lucindites would not give shelter and consideration to enemies of Magic.  There's far too much disagreement among the gods themselves for there to be any sort of egalitarian application of divine principles across all boundaries. That is much more of a monotheistic principle, in my opinion, than an aspect of a polytheistic pantheon.
 

Aphel

Re: Monstrous races allowed in Center?
« Reply #25 on: April 11, 2012, 11:42:49 am »
Every one you find also includes mothers, children, infants and newborn - in short, ever single goblin/dark elf/orc or whatever else - and slaughter them. On sight. No mercy, no pity, and surely not a single one left.
That is genocide or the "extermination" of a race.
If there is a possible reasoning to do such a thing (against a race that is not undead or comes from the pit in any form) within the Conducts of Virtues as a LG character, I would like to know. It has nothing to do for me with that those are people or not. If they are defenseless (or "innoccent", whatever that means) and you slaughter them nevertheless, and that is what you need to do if you are commiting genocide, I see a possible violation of the "honorable combat" value (among others).

So, is it correct that the Conducts only apply to humanoids (humans, elves, dwarves, halflings, gnomes, ...) in terms of Honorable Combat etc?
 

Xaltotun

Re: Monstrous races allowed in Center?
« Reply #26 on: April 11, 2012, 11:51:20 am »
The trouble is, I can see where both 'sides' of this discussion are coming from.

The Ancient Greeks developed a very 'modern' style of government and it became known as Democracy. This (we are told in the west at least) was the very first instance of democracy in the world - now, is that 'modern'? The Vikings (Norway was first) gave women equal rights, stopped wife beating and made it illegal and protected their children (around the 11-13th century if memory serves) - is that 'modern'? The Spanish Moors had a police force and street lighting during the dark ages, while the rest of Europe was immersed in feudalism and filth - is that modern?

In other words, modern is a term given by us to 'new age' thinking which may not actually be that new.

I can agree with the gain-sayers when they say monstrous races can be hunted and killed like vermin, since that is the world Layo attempts to create and I am all for it.

I can also agree with the others who would light to take a more 'enlightened' view (not necessarily 'modern') of monstrous races and I can work with that too.

I know that Layonara can accommodate both views and not dissolve into a proscribed formula in which every character has to have the same ('un-modern') opinions and views.


Now where did I last park my dark elf - I feel a confrontation coming on around Center :o
 

Alatriel

Re: Monstrous races allowed in Center?
« Reply #27 on: April 11, 2012, 11:53:36 am »
There is a distinct difference between hunting out and eradicating all goblins in every single nook and cranny, and killing every one you find.  The point here is that I highly doubt that anyone would purposely go and hunt goblins into extinction, but I also don't think that if it happened by some means the general population would bat an eyelash.  Honorable conduct has to take into consideration a lot of aspects of various things.  Goblins are evil on the whole.  I'm not saying that the Conducts of Virtue say "yeah, go and eradicate all goblins," however, I don't believe that Toran is going to be upset if you go clear out the Redlight Caves either.  Unless you took it as a serious undertaking, you wouldn't personally be able to kill goblins into extinction.  It's the term "genocide" here that makes things all too extreme.  No one is going to fault you for killing a goblin.  If the goblin runs away from you (and has not stolen something first and is making a getaway), then certainly, let it go.  But watch your back for when it comes back after you with a knife at your throat while you sleep.  These are the things that people would think about.  If a goblin is coming that close to "civilization" most people are going to assume it has some sort of evil intention be it theft, murder, or overall mischief and mayhem.  As far as "women and children" goblins, I don't know that people could really tell much of a difference between a goblin male or a goblin female unless they looked really closely.  A goblin child could easily be mistaken as a shorter or smaller goblin.  You have to understand that when you de-humanize a race, which is what is done here, unlike what is being argued for in this thread, that people do not apply the same characteristics as man, woman, and child to that race.  So, yes, people would likely kill all sorts of goblins without a thought, not because they were horrible people killing children, but because they were heroes killing monsters.  It's a difference in morality.
 

gilshem ironstone

Re: Monstrous races allowed in Center?
« Reply #28 on: April 11, 2012, 11:59:53 am »
@Xaltotun-Interesting about the Vikings, I had no idea about that.  As far as the Greeks version of democracy is concerned, I would not call it particularly enlightened, as the only people who could participate in voting were male citizens, no women or slaves allowed.  I do take your point that modernity, and the "cutting edge" is very much a notion of the moment, where every civilization in their present believes they have achieved or discovered some sort of pinnacle.
 

Aphel

Re: Monstrous races allowed in Center?
« Reply #29 on: April 11, 2012, 12:21:58 pm »
I spoke out specifically against genocide here:

Quote from: Shiokara
Quote from: dragogear
Though  now I also wander about another thing. Witch would you say is more  good? Trying to make peace and try teaching the creature how to be  good... or just go all out and genocide them?

Clerics  of Az'Atta and other passive deities would argue the former while  Toranites, Voraxians, and many, many others would argue the latter.

To point out that it is not necessarily acceptable within the Conducts and I now what to know if it is.
 

Dorganath

Re: Monstrous races allowed in Center?
« Reply #30 on: April 11, 2012, 12:37:15 pm »
Layonara is not Earth.  

Leave all your parallels at the login screen.

Sure, there's going to be overlap, but they are not the same or even similar except in the most general of senses.

Again, if individuals wish to believe that all monstrous races are just ugly and/or misunderstood people who need a hug, that's fine.  That is also going to be a fringe concept that is only held by a very, very small fraction of the population as a whole. Don't be surprised if small children point and laugh at you for cuddling with an orc....right before it tears your arms off for a snack.
 

Aphel

Re: Monstrous races allowed in Center?
« Reply #31 on: April 11, 2012, 12:56:53 pm »
I am aware of that, Dorganath. I would like to know if the racism/speciecism in Layonara expresses in the Conducts of Virtue in the form that it is completely acceptable for Toran and his church to apply the Conducts only to "humanoid" races, or, even shorter: Do the Conducts require my paladin to fight honorably and with restraint against monsters or could I request a CDQ for him to remove the whole race of goblins/orcs/dark elves from a certain part of the world and get away with the things needed to achieve that goal or are there possible penalties for killing a lot of defenseless creatures (young offspring etc). It would add to my understading of the world.
 

Dorganath

Re: Monstrous races allowed in Center?
« Reply #32 on: April 11, 2012, 01:24:04 pm »
@Aphel, my comment was not directed at you. It was a general statement to all participating in this thread.

Regarding your question, there are many ways to answer that question. I am going to avoid specifics, because that makes the box too small.

What is written about Toran's Conducts of Virtue does not make a distinction one way or the other in regards to race, species or any other demarcation. That could be interpreted as applying to all universally, and that any weak, defenseless "monster" should be protected by Toranites or at least given the same consideration as people.  On the flip side, it doesn't forbid racism/speciesism/whateverism either, which could be interpreted as the Conducts applying to what are considered "people". These are definitely the extremes, but they serve to illustrate that there is room for interpretation.

On one hand, Toran may not fault one of his followers for sparing the life of, or even protecting, a goblin if it was a matter of protection. That does (potentially) show valor, restraint and possibly a few other things. That said, goblins are not known to be upstanding, moral members of society.  There is a fair amount of evil-ness within the goblin population, proportionately more than within human populations.  Toran teaches his followers to rout evil where it lives, so now what?  Only Paladins can sense evil, so what if a cleric or simply a faithful Toranite decided that the goblin was too dangerous to live. Toran may well accept this also, given the general nature of goblins.

It's all in the interpretation and the actions that come from it.

It is doubtful, in my mind, that Toran would excuse the wholesale and active genocide of goblins/orcs/whatever simply because they exist. Somewhere in there, I would think that true genocide would become an evil in and of itself. That said, if a whole tribe threatened a town, and during the defense of that town, every goblin was killed, that is a matter of combating evil and protecting those who cannot protect themselves.

This is a general, non-specific case. It does not perfectly fit with your question, and I'm not going to make it fit.  You need to decide how your character will respond in situations that come up in-game and interpret each situation as appropriate given what your character knows and believes. It's very situational, and in all things there is flexibility. Flexibility, of course, has its limits, so common sense is also very important.
 

Aphel

Re: Monstrous races allowed in Center?
« Reply #33 on: April 11, 2012, 01:46:47 pm »
Thank you anyway, I think that already clearified the question I had.
 

 

anything