Dorand and Ilsare

[drakogear]

Ok, kind saw after I submitted Rurik to the library that Dorand and Ilsare are enemies. I'm actually quite confused by this. Dorand is the god of craftsmen right, and Ilsare praises/blesses those that create great art and music. Wouldn't forging great metal statues or ornamented armor and equipment be a form of great art? Sure Dorand may say "good enough is not good enough" and melt down what he just made and remake it, but that saying would also apply to artists and musicians. Sure many would gather and marvel at the beauty that was created but to the creator it possibly is not. This is his masterpiece were talking about. It has to be perfect.

So... exactly why are these two enemies with each other? Neutral more likely. Friendly perhaps at most... after all Dorand might just grab a picture and toss it in the furnace just to keep the fires going.

[Script Wrecked]

They are at diametric ends of the "form versus function" argument.

[drakogear]

ok that explains... not much... One little argument? that makes two people enemies? Well... guessing from who the argument is between... kinda thinking someone like Rurik Stoneforge would be needed to bring these two to peace... though he is just one man... er dwarf... er gold dwarf.

Praying to both Ilsair and Dorand as he forges and thinks of both great beauty and toughness.

Dorand to make his creation strong and durable. (high quality)

Ilsair to give them beauty and inspirational value.

[Filatus]

It's been said time and time again, not all relationship between deities can be explained simply by how their dogma's align with each other. Like Branderback who considers himself allied with Mist, while Mist is unfriendly to him. For some of them, the real reason might be lost to memory, except to select few in the church, while for others there are countless of stories, giving a different explanation.

[Hellblazer]

Sometimes it's evident other's it isn't. In this case I think it is. If you look at the dogma of both you will see one that is primarily about battle and war, vs one that is primarily about art and beauty. Unless you have some loose screws up there, you wont find war, blood, gore to be really a beautiful art form.

So their point of views are basically quite at opposite of one an other in some sense. Not as much as pacifism is intended here, but really more as the uglyness of battle, versus the sissiness of frivolous dressing and flower ninies.

[Script Wrecked]

ok that explains... not much... One little argument? that makes two people enemies? Well... guessing from who the argument is between... kinda thinking someone like Rurik Stoneforge would be needed to bring these two to peace... though he is just one man... er dwarf... er gold dwarf.

Praying to both Ilsair and Dorand as he forges and thinks of both great beauty and toughness.

Dorand to make his creation strong and durable. (high quality)

Ilsair to give them beauty and inspirational value.

It explains everything; it is the quintessence of their animosity.

It is not a "little argument", a trite disagreement. It is fundamental to what the two gods embody.

When he prays to Ilsare and to Dorand, at what point does the functionality of the item take precedence over the form of the item, or the form over the function?

[Script Wrecked]

Sometimes it's evident other's it isn't. In this case I think it is. If you look at the dogma of both you will see one that is primarily about battle and war, vs one that is primarily about art and beauty. Unless you have some loose screws up there, you wont find war, blood, gore to be really a beautiful art form.

So their point of views are basically quite at opposite of one an other in some sense. Not as much as pacifism is intended here, but really more as the uglyness of battle, versus the sissiness of frivolous dressing and flower ninies.

[LORE]Dorand[/LORE] has very little to do with battle or war per se. For Dorand, it is about crafting:

Dorand is not a complicated god, enmeshed in the politics of the heavens, his church is about crafting; the strength to craft, the discipline to craft, the desire to craft, and the patience to develop skills in crafting.

[drakogear]

@Hellblazer: Ok... reading through Dorand and I see nothing about Battle or warfare. Mostly he's about mining, forging, crafting and... thats it...

@Script Wrecked: Well... can't it posses both form and function? Form being elegance and beauty and function be a ummm... shield? I guess? What ever the player decides with it I suppose really... he's currently in the Library waiting for anyone to pic him up if they want.

[Script Wrecked]

@Script Wrecked: Well... can't it posses both form and function? Form being elegance and beauty and function be a ummm... shield? I guess? What ever the player decides with it I suppose really... he's currently in the Library waiting for anyone to pic him up if they want.

Yes! And that is the nature of the conflict! Everything crafted/created possesses a form and a function. But which takes precedence?

[drakogear]

Well, depends on the one who uses it I suppose... they can hang it up as a wall ornament or use it in battle.

Rurik for one I imagine would perhaps use it for both. Thou given general game circumstance... perhaps for battle mostly. I'm of course speaking of the previously mentioned shield. Thou out of battle... makes for a great polished ornamental decoration. Haha! I combine the two again. :p

Though of course Dorand is mainly about crafting in general... not specifically what it is that's being crafted. Sure weapons, armor and equipment are made from a forge but so are many other things... jewelery for example. How else would one mace a gold necklace, pendent, rind, bracelet or what ever with out having to mine the ore, smelt it and forge the gold metal into the fabulous jewelery one would wear?

[Pankoki]

Form following function is one of the most important engineering lessons. It got drilled into us in so many different levels, everywhere from conception to implementation. It's not just an "opinion" of how pretty something might be, it really is a fundamentally different approach.

While there's plenty of room for there to be internal conflict of the follower, the lessons that Dorand teaches are pretty straightforward: Make durable, useful, and quality items to venerate the Master Crafter. There's really nothing there about "beautiful". There's room for conflict for a -follower- to want to make something beautiful, but His teachings are not driven by that. Ilsare's are.

[gilshem ironstone]

The conflicts of the gods are not for
mortals to reconcile anyway. To know the mind of a god is to be a god
yourself. The journey of faith is to discover the wisdom in these paths and to find reconciliation where there at first appears to be none.

Also unless you are filling in your deity field, there is nothing prohibiting a character from venerating bboth gods. You just might get dome
flak socially.

[Hellblazer]

[LORE]Dorand[/LORE] has very little to do with battle or war per se. For Dorand, it is about crafting:

Ha yea I figured that out later on and face palmed. But i was away for the day and couldn't rectify it.

[Hellblazer]

To complete my thoughts on what I wrote. Even though I mistakenly used Vorax. IMO the Dorand .vs Ilsare is not so far stretched. Dorand, yes, is all about crafting, but it doesn't mean that it's looking to crafting in the sense of works of art. But more in the sense of crafting for crafting and reaching mastery, mostly in metal workings and also stone workings as I look at what Dorand governs. While the Isarians will craft to create work of arts, emphasizing on the aesthetic aspect of what they create to awe and mesmerize people with the beautiful qualities of the work they do. Also if you look at the fact Dorand is a dwarf god and Ilsare an elf god, who both races have waged wars often in the past the first recorded one being-1601 pre- cataclysm. Also "most" dwarfs and elves actually disdain each others. So all in all racial prejudices, wars, dogma fundalism being skewed from one an other could explain the reason why they are that way. In fact that racial thing seems to be more evident when you look at that both Dorand and Vorax (who are both dwarf gods) hates all elves gods except Kithairein and Folian (both more hunters), and that most elves gods hates both dwarf gods.

Anyhow that's how I view it, accurate or not.

[EdTheKet]

Form following function is one of the most important engineering lessons. It got drilled into us in so many different levels, everywhere from conception to implementation. It's not just an "opinion" of how pretty something might be, it really is a fundamentally different approach.

[/FONT]
 Exactly!
 
 

[/FONT]
 
 While there's plenty of room for there to be internal conflict of the follower, the lessons that Dorand teaches are pretty straightforward: Make durable, useful, and quality items to venerate the Master Crafter. There's really nothing there about "beautiful". There's room for conflict for a -follower- to want to make something beautiful, but His teachings are not driven by that. Ilsare's are.
 

Emphasis in red added by me, there's indeed plenty of room for the follower to have internal conflict and second thoughts about what should take precedence, or why form and function cannot be combined. But the two deities have fundamentally different opinions about form and function.
 
 Then there's the race thing, but that's of secondary importance as evidenced by Folian/Kithairien.

[Hellblazer]

 I wasn't so off the track then!

[drakogear]

So the dwarf I posted in the library is playable... just not with the deity field being written in at creation.

As for the racial problem well... Rurik is a gold dwarf witch by my understanding is the most social of all dwarfs and possible have a more trusting attitude towards elves given they possibly do quite a bit of trading with them.