since this has come up a few times

[Falonthas]

and today it brought up an actual pvp incident  that had to be resolved

i have to ask  

at what level is a cleric of rofirein one who can do the im an officer of the law routine and wouldnt they have to be someone to the church, and not just any novice cleric

i figure if this comes from the dm's and the writing team who have the knowledge of the actual church heirarchy, then this episode might not occur again

cause it seems to be in a grey area right now

[Acacea]

I would assume that all Rofireinites regardless of rank would seek to ensure that things go through the proper authorities and are properly reported and so forth. That does not imply that they themselves are the proper authorities, though. Surely no mortal servant is warden, judge, jury, and executioner all in one.

[Gulnyr]

Acacea is right.  While Rofireinite Clerics, Paladins, Knights or the Wyrm, etc. are supporters of the law, they are not necessarily the authorities in any given place.  I'm not aware of any PC Rofireinite who is a proper authority anywhere, except perhaps Kobal, but then only within the Halls of the Runic Anvil, which isn't quite the same thing.  No PC Rofireinite is a Judge or executioner, certainly.  Novice Clerics are someone to the Church, though; they are squarely within the structure and organization of the Church, if only on the lower rungs of the ladder.

Rofireinites should work through the local authorities.  Unless those authorities say otherwise, Rofireinite PCs are subordinate to them.  Jennara is one of the highest ranking PC Rofireinites, but she still finds lowly guards if she needs to ask permission to enter a home or make a report or whatever.  Rofireinites aren't the law.  They follow the law and support the authorities to help maintain order.  In general, anyway - it isn't quite so simple, but that's the basic idea.

[Skywatcher]

This seems to be one of those things that needs to corrected by the new handbook.  If you read the desription of the paladins of Toran under the Toran page in LORE they used to be just that, the arm of the Justicers and empowered to make arrests and even meet out punishment in some cases.  Now that the Justicers work for Rofirein it seems likely that the paladins of Rofirein would take on a similar role although that is not necessarily so.  There is a void left in the law enforcement realm since the Toran paladins no longer fill that role.  I think that has led to some confusion.

[Gulnyr]

I'm not the Loremaster or a rule maker, but, in a sense, I think anyone can make an arrest as long as they proceed to the authorities and take responsibility for their actions.

So, Ambrose Bystander could try to apprehend Beatrice Robber as she runs from Carlita Shopkeeper's store with a load of goodies, but she doesn't have any right to play judge and jury under most places' laws.  Ambrose would need to take Beatrice to the local guard or have someone call for them or whatever.  It would be the same situation if Ambrose was replaced with Dominic Rofireinite or Earnest Toranite or whoever.

I think you might be reading too much power into what that LORE page says.    It says specifically that the Justicers are the executioners of punishments handed down from the courts, not that they run around doing the judging and sentencing.  In other words, according to that page (which, as you said, is out of date), they can only punish people according to what the appropriate authority has decreed.  They aren't free agents of justice, roaming around doing whatever they please.  

These Justicers are appointed by the Divine Court as executioners of punishments handed down by the Judges of the court... Justicers have responsibilities for districts, traveling from town to town to dispense the justice of the court.

They are, according to that page, able to handle trivial matters, which probably isn't anything more serious than the theft of a single loaf of bread or a land dispute between two farmers.  Paladins are listed as the assistants of the Justicers, roaming around more since Justicers are assigned to certain areas, and can take the place of a Justicer if necessary.

And, y'know, handing out judgments and punishments might be listed as a right for certain characters, but that's still only at the whim of the powers-that-be in the city/region/kingdom.  If a Toranite (or pretty much anyone) tried to claim that right in Arnax, they might end up with enough time to run away while everyone else falls down laughing.  And even in the nicer areas of Mistone or Dregar, you may be thanked for your assistance while you're being reprimanded or fined for assaulting a citizen if you get carried away.  That's where the responsibility part comes in - people can't just go around clobbering each other and expect there to be no consequences, regardless of their intentions or their rights, at least in the 'more civilized' places.

[ycleption]

The Paladins belong to the arm of the church that carries out the rulings of the Justicers. It is their job to bring bloody retribution to evildoers. Should they find someone committing a crime, it is their duty to hold them for trial by a Justicer. Should a Justicer be unavailable to hear a case, and the crime not so severe that the Divine Court should become involved, then it is up to the Paladin to make his own moral decision and to ascertain that evil does not go unpunished.

From the "Toran" page on LORE is I think what Skywatcher was referring to..

[Skywatcher]

Right but none of what is written in LORE is applicable any more since a while back Toran disbanded the Jutsicers over the trial of Navarre and the Justicers went to work for the church of Rofirein.  Toranites now have very little to do with law enforcement and are more seeking out evil and fighting it.  There is no information at all about how the Rofireinite church has integrated this new law enforcement role into its rules and codes and thus the confusion I think people are having.

[Gulnyr]

*nods to ycleption*  That doesn't say anything about the Paladins being judge, jury, and executioner, though, or indicate that they have more power than the Justicers.  It does say that when there is no one else more appropriate around to handle them that a Paladin can sit in for a Justicer, who would only be permitted to hear minor cases in the first place.

There isn't necessarily any void in law enforcement.  There are way more people involved in it than just members of the Toranite and Rofireinite Churches.  Paladins and Justicers of Toran were not the only enforcers, they were only some of the enforcers.  Rofireinites aren't really any different than they were, regardless of where the Justicers fit now.  Kingdoms and cities either will or won't accept Rofireinites' assistance, will or won't grant higher authority to them, and do or don't support the Divine Court.  

The safest course for any Rofireinite PC is to assist the law enforcement of the area by acting as a concerned citizen rather than an authorized agent, since that's pretty much what you are until you've been properly deputized.  It may seem that any Rofireinite should be automatically included in the structure wherever the Divine Court and the Church are recognized, but remember that anyone can dress up as a Rofireinite.  Recognition and proper authorization help prevent those sorts of problems.

[Jaigan]

Also I don't think people are giving the factions the respect they deserve, I mean we ignore the fact that normally your meant to be weary of them and bringing attention to yourself is unwise and could land you in a dungeon, people don't seem to take that into account when telling a rofi he's messed in the head because when it comes down to it they are PC's and you know they can't really do anything about it short of lob your cocky head offand even then only unless you accept the PvP. you don't see anyone going up to Captain Trent saying bugger off, he'll pop you in the nose and stick you cleaning sewers for the rest of your life.
 
 I read a book, many of you probably read it, Wheel of Time, by Robert Jordon, I look at Rofi's like the White Cloaks are in that Novel, people will talk about them and say how they don't like them but when they are present they keep there mouth shut and avoid them or listen to them to avoid trouble. just becuase they may be wrong and you may know better doesn't mean you can ignore the factions pressence in the world and I see many people doing that. even if it's not their land or in their territory people should still often let them have their way simply becuase they CAN put a bounty on your head and make up anything they want to make it official. this is politics and it's not a pretty thing when it comes down to it factions are just that they stick together and they will listen to one of their own before an outsider. you  off one you've just as well ed off them all.
 
 This goes on both side as well, if you are in the faction and you don't live up to their standerds you'd be offed and replaced with someone who will do it. EVEN if you are a level 40 char and are near the top guess what people get assassinated and thats how corrupted organizations work. every player good or evil should be weary or conflict between other factions and organizations. right now I see 3 factions
 
 1: Players ---can't do anything only listen when it's convienant.
 2: NPC's --- can't do anything, don't hit them and your safe.
 3: GM/DM's --- ah here we go when we see these a squirrel can tell a level 35 char to fetch him a nut and give him 50,000 true and it's good as done.
 
  Lets say a rofi tells you to show him your shield becuase he knew once before you had a symbol of a faction you did not belong... his faction, now you sit there and aurgue with him saying he has no right to tell you what to do, in short your right maybe he don't he has a good reason, you have your own but what you forget is if your running around with someone else's faction symbol after being told to remove it your going to make them mad, not just that one the whole bloody faction and you'll soon find yourself in a dark ally bleeding (not everyone is nice)
 
  I just think because we don't see these unseen factions on a daily basis we take it for granted and ignore their presence to suit our own ends. I know that Jaigan doesn't really want to make a faction of any kind angry with him even if it's all player run simply becuase it's not smart and he don't want the extra trouble (even when he knows that there will be none since the game can't regualy enforce it)
 
 Of course this is as long as you don't mind the extra trouble, and if you do take that route I really hope some DM's start harassing your char for ing off a faction (while you OOC think it wont happen because of the game and PC limitations) lol :p that would be too funny.
 
 Another example, if we find someone in the thieves guild, the Shadowthieves  or whatever and we arrest him and you walk around town and your all proud cuz you found a player that was in the Shadowthieves bla bla end of story, do to game limitations you are safe as a puppy in Randi's pack but if you really think about it your a dead man plain and simple you don't go arresting people like that and not expect a dagger in the back just because players can't do it, the faction is in the lore and it would.
 
 hells I may be 100% wrong and I am not taking any sides on anything I just think it would be great to see people actually NOT walk around Layo like they are the king and bloody queen.

[Gulnyr]

Good post, Jaigan.  Nice thought process, even if the details are a little off, heh.

[Jaigan]

It's the point I am trying to get across not the facts this time. :p  *hides avoiding the angry mob*

[Dezza]

Right but none of what is written in LORE is applicable any more since a while back Toran disbanded the Jutsicers over the trial of Navarre and the Justicers went to work for the church of Rofirein.  Toranites now have very little to do with law enforcement and are more seeking out evil and fighting it.  There is no information at all about how the Rofireinite church has integrated this new law enforcement role into its rules and codes and thus the confusion I think people are having.

You are correct here unfortunately. Yes the Toranites no longer are enforcers of sentencing.

The Rofireinites have formed a new order called the Office of the Principium which in effect has several functions. I hope Ed doesn't mind me talking briefly about this...

1/ To police its own members so that corruption and misconduct can be dealt with internally, swiftly and harshly.

2/ Replace the Toranite justicers with Wardens who in principle have the authority to issue warrants, make arrests, investigate crimes and carry out sentencing. In extreme cases they can act as judges as well but only where there is no other authority available to conduct a fair trial.

3/ To support and uphold the authority of lawmakers and enforcers of laws reflecting the Code of Divine Laws across the world whether they follow Rofirein or not.

[LightlyFrosted]

While it should be noted that most characters should have at least a healthy respect for Rofies in regards to their role as law enforcement, there are a great many people who have little or no regard for authority figures, ranging to great disregard.  A character who gives a Rofierenite cleric lip is not necessarily doing it because he or she knows that they'll be safe from consequences - they may, in-character, have no respect for the church of Rofieren, and express it by.. well.. expressing a lack of respect for it's clerics.

Joe Chaotic:  "Good evening Officer."
Jim Rofie:  "I need you for questioning!"
Joe Chaotic:  "And I need another drink.  If wishes were horses, beggars of 15th level or higher would ride."
Jim Rofie:  "By the authority granted..." etc. etc. etc.
Joe Chaotic:  "I do not hold your station in respect, nor authority vested therein.  If you wish to question me, kindly inform the local officer of the law."

This COULD be Joe Chaotic banking on the right to refuse PvP, but it could just as well be Joe Chaotic being Joe CHAOTIC.  Who may, incidentally, have decided that in this instance,that it is unlikely Jim Rofie is going to bash his brains out with a mace for being uppity.  While Rofierenites may command a certain amount of respect from those that respect the law, not everyone does.

[Jaigan]

While it should be noted that most characters should have at least a healthy respect for Rofies in regards to their role as law enforcement, there are a great many people who have little or no regard for authority figures, ranging to great disregard. A character who gives a Rofierenite cleric lip is not necessarily doing it because he or she knows that they'll be safe from consequences - they may, in-character, have no respect for the church of Rofieren, and express it by.. well.. expressing a lack of respect for it's clerics.
 
 Joe Chaotic: "Good evening Officer."
 Jim Rofie: "I need you for questioning!"
 Joe Chaotic: "And I need another drink. If wishes were horses, beggars of 15th level or higher would ride."
 Jim Rofie: "By the authority granted..." etc. etc. etc.
 Joe Chaotic: "I do not hold your station in respect, nor authority vested therein. If you wish to question me, kindly inform the local officer of the law."
 
 This COULD be Joe Chaotic banking on the right to refuse PvP, but it could just as well be Joe Chaotic being Joe CHAOTIC. Who may, incidentally, have decided that in this instance,that it is unlikely Jim Rofie is going to bash his brains out with a mace for being uppity. While Rofierenites may command a certain amount of respect from those that respect the law, not everyone does.

 
 Thats when you start the PvP, and then be uppity knowing for 15 minutes Jim Rofie COULD very well bash your head in for being a tyrant. Its only when you COULD be harmed that most people respect the laws and is how you should be acting rather PvP is active or not.
 
 (be in NYC and tell a police officer to bugger off he may very well put the tazer to you.)

[Gulnyr]

This isn't exactly on topic, but it seems like a good place for it.  It isn't aimed at anything already said, but just popped into my head while I was reading.

While Chaos and Law are on opposite sides of the ethical line, Chaotic characters aren't necessarily utterly opposed to Law, and vice versa.  A Chaotic character might be consciously opposed to authority and choose to stand firmly against it, or might be fine with authority doing its thing and only be opposed to being told what to do.  

So a Rofireinite who demands this and that based on his authority might not get anywhere, while another Rofireinite who asks this and that without threat could go a long way.  Obviously, there are a lot of factors at work here - the type of Chaotic, the nature of the Rofireinite, the Wisdom of either character, the moral alignment of the characters...  

Back on topic, while Rofireinites can use force, they aren't above the law.  If a Rofireinite is asking questions and someone doesn't want to answer, they don't have any right to beat that person up any more than any other random person on the street does.  I don't think there is any particular law that says anyone must transfer pertinent information to random questioners when asked.  Even if there were, Rofireinites believe in fair punishments fit for the crime, and beating someone seems pretty harsh for not answering a couple of questions.

I know you're making the point that we should play as if there were a hundred NPC guards ready to take down our characters for causing trouble and that behaving in blatant opposition to the authorities should really have a good chance of getting a character tossed out of town permanently.  I also appreciate the point that people might run their mouths while hiding behind the no PvP rules, which is a pretty cheap.  I also know that my point isn't talking about that.  I just thought it was important to add a little about what Rofireinites do (or should do, or try to do) since there's quite a bit about clubbing folks up there.

[lonnarin]

So in other words, if a Rofirienite starts acting like Mel Gibson from Lethal Weapon, he's more likely to be arrested by other Rofirienites than be taken seriously by any court of law.

We have to explicitly define as well, the difference between a member of the faith and a police force.  Just because somebody is trained to be a priest of Rofirien does NOT make them a townguard.  Town Guards are selected by the town's rulers at their own choosing, not the temple.  If the Rofirienite temple started say, putting armed guards in the streets of Katharian, then it would be a quick and bloody war on their hands once the nobles in charge noticed that the people they assigned were being subverted by a foreign theocratic force.  Further, just because most Rofirienites naturally persue jobs as barristers, clercks, judges bailiffs, etc.. it is not a hard requirement that all such positions in the world be held by Rofirienites.  If it were, then there would be no such thing as justice, and the Rofirienites would violate their own codes of justice being impartial.

If a player character is a Rofirienite, it does not automatically make them an official town guard with even a shred of juristiction.  If they want such things, they just have to apply for the job, undergo training and be approved by the local government like everybody else, usually via CDQ.

[Jaigan]

This isn't exactly on topic, but it seems like a good place for it. It isn't aimed at anything already said, but just popped into my head while I was reading.
 
 While Chaos and Law are on opposite sides of the ethical line, Chaotic characters aren't necessarily utterly opposed to Law, and vice versa. A Chaotic character might be consciously opposed to authority and choose to stand firmly against it, or might be fine with authority doing its thing and only be opposed to being told what to do.
 
 So a Rofireinite who demands this and that based on his authority might not get anywhere, while another Rofireinite who asks this and that without threat could go a long way. Obviously, there are a lot of factors at work here - the type of Chaotic, the nature of the Rofireinite, the Wisdom of either character, the moral alignment of the characters...
 
 Back on topic, while Rofireinites can use force, they aren't above the law. If a Rofireinite is asking questions and someone doesn't want to answer, they don't have any right to beat that person up any more than any other random person on the street does. I don't think there is any particular law that says anyone must transfer pertinent information to random questioners when asked. Even if there were, Rofireinites believe in fair punishments fit for the crime, and beating someone seems pretty harsh for not answering a couple of questions.
 
 I know you're making the point that we should play as if there were a hundred NPC guards ready to take down our characters for causing trouble and that behaving in blatant opposition to the authorities should really have a good chance of getting a character tossed out of town permanently. I also appreciate the point that people might run their mouths while hiding behind the no PvP rules, which is a pretty cheap. I also know that my point isn't talking about that. I just thought it was important to add a little about what Rofireinites do (or should do, or try to do) since there's quite a bit about clubbing folks up there.

 
 You know I absolutly agree, they don't have the right, or should even have the will to go around clubbing people. but when we are trapped in a world where laws are becomming just an inconvenience at most when it's not supported by the Lore or DM/GM's then player's can become fustrated and as a result it unfolds as we have been seeing. We've all at the very least agree that we as a whole should be respecting the factions more and that's a good start to putting us back on the right path the Lore and DM/GM's would like us to be at. So I hope we can come up with some ways to sort out the inconsistancies and ignorance to the laws and who holds what power, and also who does not hold legal power but is something to be feared and step lightly around.
 
  One Idea that comes to mind is say in Hempstead on the platform near the Criar, we can have the Rofie's (with GM assistance) once a week hold some public trials for some minor offences (all made up for the most part unless it really pertains to a PC) and in these trials the PC's will handle the punishments and so forth. the crimes can be asorted to all the little things they ARE able to enforce and things that most of us may not know is a crime. So we'll learn more about the different laws and also we'll start seeing the faction in action creating a more visual representation of them. for PC's that get tried and found guilty they should have to pay a fine unless it's something really serious then thats when it the DM's take over. and as a bonus I think it would be great RP :p