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Author Topic: Question of Scale in Maps and Distances  (Read 880 times)

SteveMaurer

Question of Scale in Maps and Distances
« on: March 01, 2009, 07:22:27 pm »
In many of the maps of Layonara, I noticed a notation on the side stating the following "1 Statute Mile = 3 Miles".  I had assumed that this meant that a single real ("statute") mile was equal to 3 Layonaran miles.

This would mean, for example, that the real length of the road between Fort Vehl and Port Hempstead, as measured on the map as about 1300 Layonaran miles, would really be about 430 earth miles.   That is a considerable distance, of course; in the real world, the distance from London to Germany.   But still, accounting that people on foot can travel about 20 miles per day on good roads, about three weeks apart.

Makes sense, mostly.   At least it's in the ballpark of believability.


But now I've come upon the Lore that the "1 Statute Mile = 3 Miles" is reversed.   Layonaran miles are supposed to be three times as long as earth ones.   This means that the length of the road from Fort Vehl to Port Hempstead is 3900 miles, approximately the distance between London and Chicago, USA.   Even assuming the roads are good, this means it takes 6 1/2 months to travel between these two cities.   And PCs, even if they burden themselves to the point that they walk the slowest the game allows, still walk the 5 screens faster than most passenger jets fly.

Another way of putting it is that at this scale, most humans will age half their lifetimes just performing the Krandor Package Delivery quest, most kingdoms are larger than the Roman Empire at the height of its power, and every lake drawn on the map is at least as large as a US great lake, being thousands of miles in circumference.

If this really is the intended scale, there needs to be some sort of RP explanation on why characters can travel between cities, spending anything less than years of their lives doing so.
 

Dorganath

Re: Question of Scale in Maps and Distances
« Reply #1 on: March 01, 2009, 07:48:01 pm »
At some point there was a mistake in the mile-to-statute mile conversion somewhere.  I believe the first is correct.

The best thing I can tell you is that Layonara is an Earth-sized planet, so figure about 12,500 miles pole-to-pole.  From north to south, Dregar is somewhere in the range of 5,500-6,000 miles long, and if you look at one of the world maps, you'll see that's about half the distance between the two poles.  There was some early confusion and map inaccuracy (and may still be some of the latter) butwhat I'd suggest is to use the scale that makes the most sense, and not the one that makes Layonara some mammoth-sized planet.


It is pretty odd considering how fast travel is in game mechanics vs. the real amount of time one would spend in actual travel.  It's one of those things that just requires some suspension of disbelief.  Though one other way to look at it is that while you're not in-game, all that time catches up with you and it all ends up being a wash overall.
 

Gulnyr

Re: Question of Scale in Maps and Distances
« Reply #2 on: March 01, 2009, 08:40:42 pm »
The map scale says "Miles," then states parenthetically that one statute mile is three miles.  So the scale is in plain ol' miles, making Dapplegreen about 700 miles (or about 230 Layonara statute miles) from Fort Vehl.  By the scale, Mistone is about one and a half times as long as the continental United States is wide.  If that's not right, the scale needs to be clarified again.  

For the superhuge kingdoms, I imagine those are only areas claimed on paper, maybe even agreed to by treaty in some cases.  If they were really under control, there wouldn't be so many monsters or the monsters would be paying taxes.
 

SteveMaurer

Re: Question of Scale in Maps and Distances
« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2009, 01:01:10 pm »
Quote from: Gulnyr
The map scale says "Miles," then states parenthetically that one statute mile is three miles.  So the scale is in plain ol' miles, making Dapplegreen about 700 miles (or about 230 Layonara statute miles) from Fort Vehl.


That would make Fort Vehl about 1000 miles away from the fork in the road that leads to Port Hempstead, and then another 300 miles to the Port.

In real world scale, that's the distance from Tunis, Africa, to Sweden and then a left turn to go to London.

That still seems way too big to me.   But I defer to those who want it to be that way.
 

Dorganath

Re: Question of Scale in Maps and Distances
« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2009, 01:41:50 pm »
Again...

Quote from: Dorganath
The best thing I can tell you is that Layonara is an Earth-sized planet, so figure about 12,500 miles pole-to-pole.  From north to south, Dregar is somewhere in the range of 5,500-6,000 miles long, and if you look at one of the world maps, you'll see that's about half the distance between the two poles.  There was some early confusion and map inaccuracy (and may still be some of the latter) but what I'd suggest is to use the scale that makes the most sense, and not the one that makes Layonara some mammoth-sized planet.

If you look at the world map, preferably the trade routes map because it's easier to read, and know that Layonara is earth-sized, then you can make your own scale and see that it's not so far from what we've been saying, assuming 12,500-ish miles pole-to-pole.  Of course we could get into things like a Mercator projection type of distortion, or the general lack of real accuracy in cartography, but it serves the purpose.

So yes, they're long distances, and NWN distorts things greatly, not to mention a game year passes in 22-1/2 days, give or take.  It all sort of washes out.

In the MMO, distances will make a fair amount more sense, though they're still going to be compressed in-game vs. what it would be in reality.  That's a necessary balance between realism and fun.
 

Gulnyr

Re: Question of Scale in Maps and Distances
« Reply #5 on: March 03, 2009, 01:53:37 pm »
I know it's weird.  It's an outrageous scale with huge tracts of (almost) inexplicably empty space.  I'm not really a fan of it, either, [post=769812]as you can see[/post].  The post by Leanthar following the one I linked explains why it isn't entirely inexplicable, though there still isn't any in-character explanation for the emptiness (Dorg tried in that thread, but his answer still leaves too many holes).  

Except for "because that's how I want it" or "that's how it has always been," which are reasons I'll accept even though they're not my favorite, I'm not sure why the map we see has to be the whole world rather than the known world.  The steamy jungle swampiness of Alibor seems more equatorial than polar to me, so it seems the sizes and distances could be roughly halved (Krashin at northern polar latitudes like it is, Alibor at equatorial latitudes rather than southern polar latitudes) without losing anything important (or anything at all except vast, empty space) while also making things a little more sensible all around. *shrug*  A Germany-sized Tilmar doesn't seem less viable than a Western-Europe-sized Tilmar, so it doesn't even affect the MMO, especially if things already have to be compressed.
 

EdTheKet

Re: Question of Scale in Maps and Distances
« Reply #6 on: March 03, 2009, 02:27:23 pm »
Hear ye, oh discussors of maps!

I will address some comments

1) One Statute Mile, is the distance a human can walk in an hour. This is roughly 3 real life miles, which are also 3 regular Layonara miles.

Yes, this coincidentally makes one statue mile almost the same as the League of old.

Yes, this makes the world very big.

Yes, this makes distances between towns very large.

Yes, this makes lakes pretty big.

Yes, this is as intended.

No, this is indeed not reflected in Layonara NWN, where you can cross a continent in mere minutes. We have in the past and will continue in the future to conveniently ignore this fact, as for this particular points we will not sacrifice playability on the altar of realism.

No, we will not make some IC explanation of super-fast travel, or equip every town with teleportation portals or Stargate-like gates.

Yes, when you do aim to have a persistent world, you are constantly choosing what to sacrifice on which altar, be it the altar of playability, the altar of immersion/realism. Some things will just be explained by game mechanics and not by any lore based backing. We try to have things backed up by lore, but not everything will be, nor should everything be.

2) The maps are very empty.

Yes, there are few towns. This is because there were only about 8 million people left in the world when the Dark Ages started and it won't be much more now. For a world as big as Earth, that is a very small amount. So there are very few inhabited settlements

Yes, the maps are empty because they only show the places that are inhabited now. It does not show what was, and it does not show the score of ruins of cities, towns and hamlets as that would clutter the map.

Yes, that is also because we want it like this (see above).

3) known world versus the whole world

Yes, this is the whole world, because we want it to be like that. We don't want to conjure up continents out of thin air in the future.


Yes, this means the islands and continents are in the places they are now, and their climates are how they have been defined. Regarding the specific Alibor example, with some nice warm water hitting the island either from a Gulf Stream or from deep ocean vents, you can easily get a tropical climate.

No, we will not make maps with ocean currents with hot and cold water. Climates are what they are because we want them to be like that ;)


I hope this Loremaster input helps ;)
 

Chongo

Re: Question of Scale in Maps and Distances
« Reply #7 on: March 03, 2009, 02:41:35 pm »
Quote from: SteveMaurer
That would make Fort Vehl about 1000 miles away from the fork in the road that leads to Port Hempstead, and then another 300 miles to the Port.

In real world scale, that's the distance from Tunis, Africa, to Sweden and then a left turn to go to London.

That still seems way too big to me.   But I defer to those who want it to be that way.

This is my Captain Obvious speech, but it's good to hear every once in a while.

For the sake of not having anyone find themselves pounding their heads against a wall, I'd recommend keeping the discussion to theory alone.  It's great to chuckle at things that are not realistically represented, and often they are to a humorous degree... but when it strays into the portrayal of an actual problem, it ends up as lost opinions.  There are always appropriate ways to represent it through your roleplay - and I'd stick to the flow of traffic rule.  That is - find the general temperment of the rest of the server and try to just live up to that atmosphere so that you're not detracting from it (in either direction).

I can offer the realities of NWN to you, and not much beyond that.  I've run my own twin module server, helped run/ build a few others, built SP mods, and built a good portion of Layonara ~ so I understand the scope of NWN pretty well.  We have fabulous writings that have been graciously supplied over years of work, collected creativity, rewrites, and fine tuning... and we have maps that people have very graciously supplied.  We also have gone through iterations of well over a thousand areas to meet these writings and maps as best we can.  All that is built does not see it's way into the modules you play in.

The reality is that focus in any effort of the server should and will be placed on the delivery of story and plot.  Layonara derives from one person's original imaginings, and it's scope is grand with a massive theatre of tales, powers, interests, and general complexity equivalent to the world we live in.  NWN offers us no viable tools to build to this scale... nor does the equation of the human brain+human lifetime.

So, while any effort to build to scale would meet one expectation, it would ultimately compromise the greater goal, and that is story.

I've worked with projects that toed the line on the single-city server.  There are a couple of them out there actually.  None of them actually end up sticking to true scale, but they do try.  The issue they invariably run into is that plot is held in such a rigid tunnel that their staff ends up frustrated with the lacking variability with imagination.  They try different tools like wagon rides or ship journeys where you are held to a position for a long while.  But they find as I have that you can quickly overdo it in this effort to create realism.

I could likewise build out Hempstead to the scale of our two servers.  Interiors for example could be a massive undertaking of thousands of areas alone in theory.  But from map to map you'd tire of the same cobble again and again, and from woods you'd tire of the inplausability of more then a handful of potential creatures of myth.  Sure, there's great substance to something like this, but it does not make use of the resources we have.  And the aforementioned servers end up scaling out.  And at a certain point, be it 5x 10x or 100x.... does it matter?  I'd say it matters only to deliver story, so peg your needs there.

So when you say that you'll defer to those who 'want it to be that way'... it's not a sentiment of 'grrr... I'm going to fragment the heck out of this world because I want to steal bits and peices from ya'll!'.  It's meeting storyline goals and doing the best we can.  Sure I'll build a dozens of areas to represent one mountainous smidgeon on the map while the road from Lor to Prantz is a hop skip and a jump.  But it offers more story avenues, and it capitalizes on making the most of the room we have with the resources we have.
 

miltonyorkcastle

Re: Question of Scale in Maps and Distances
« Reply #8 on: March 03, 2009, 03:01:12 pm »
Eight million "people" and billions of monsters. ;)

Compared to the billions of people on this earth, Layo is rather empty. No wonder housing portals are so popular.

But this also makes local population VERY local, in the sense that non-adventuring people rely on the adventuring and effectively more affluent members of the world to bring news from far away places.

Personally, I like the population being so tiny. Lots of room to grow. No, really, lots and lots of huge wide open dangerous places.

Quote
huge tracts of (almost) inexplicably empty space.


Clearly there's not enough "people" (elf, human, etc.) population to fill all the landspace, but I wouldn't say it's all "empty." :D We adventurers make a living off all that "empty" space.


EDIT: Excellent post, Chongo. The NWN world we see is representative of the world, not the actual world. The actual world only exists in each respective player's imagination. The server and creature models and tree designs are only to be a springboard through which you can develop your own vision of the world as you work through the story of it, whether it be the world moving or your character. I personally like to RP that my character has travelled weeks to get somewhere, but I usually only worry about it if such affects the story that's unfolding.
 

merlin34baseball

Re: Question of Scale in Maps and Distances
« Reply #9 on: March 03, 2009, 08:27:57 pm »
Um...  believe what Ed said was right... One half of a day.

Ed... If this not right I apologize.

Statute Miles

    The term Statute Miles was codified during the reign of Raklin “The True” Diamoniar.  This term came to use during his codifications of the laws of the land.  Before this codification people spoke of travel in terms of days, such as Prantz was a two day walk from Lor.  This gave the estimation of time it would take for the journey but the actual length of the road was not measured.  Terrain could vastly change how long a journey took.  A journey over mountains could be half the miles but take more time that a journey twice as long over flat plains.

    As Raklin began improving the roads across the land to further the movement of trade goods and troops there became a problem.  This problem was how to pay the workers who improved the roads.  Debates broke out about how much should be paid for improving the roads.  Greed began to overcome some that were charged with repairing and improving the roads.

    Raklin realized that he must figure out a way to pay the workers fairly.  He set out one day to view some of the construction.  He walked for half a day before he came upon a group of workers clearing brush and rocks from a road.  He had brought a great feast with him and settled in with the workers to enjoy a fine mid day meal.  After dining and speaking with the workers, while getting a good idea of their work, he returned to the capital.

    The next day he had an idea.  He sent one of his scouts back out to count the paces that it took for him to get to the place that he had broke bread with the workers the day before.  He sent a cart with the scout carrying a large carved stone, to be set next to the road at the spot.

    The scout started counting his paces as he left the main gate of Prantz.  Upon arrival the workers set the stone next to the road.  This initial measurement would form the distance called “Statute Miles” once it was codified with the laws of the land.

    Raklin now had a unit of measure by which to estimate the costs of road repairs and also true distances between cities and villages across the land.

    Some of these stones can still be seen to this day, some more weather beaten than others.

My Thanks,
Merlin34
 

Gulnyr

Re: Question of Scale in Maps and Distances
« Reply #10 on: March 03, 2009, 08:51:37 pm »
Very nice, but this...
Quote from: merlin34baseball
Before this codification people spoke of travel in terms of days, such as Prantz was a two day walk from Lor.

... is impossible.  Lor is about 1500 miles from Prantz in a straight line, and much farther by the twisting road.  That's the distance from Washington, D.C. to Denver, Colorado.  Not even Jennara can walk that in two days, even on a 48-hour forced march.  

The standard for travel by foot, at least by D&D rules, is about 24 miles per day (generally considered 8 hours of walking per 24 hour day at 3 miles per hour, split up with breaks and sleeping and all that as required).  If the road from Prantz to Lor were perfectly straight and flat, it would still take over two months to go the 1500 miles at that rate.

It's cool that there's history like this.  Thanks.
 

Marswipp

Re: Question of Scale in Maps and Distances
« Reply #11 on: March 03, 2009, 09:59:04 pm »
*completely off topic* Horses! For everyone! :p
Playing D&D 3.5e, D&D 5e, Pathfinder, and exploring Starfinder through a VTT
 

jadewillow

Re: Question of Scale in Maps and Distances
« Reply #12 on: March 04, 2009, 04:19:58 pm »
Quote from: Dorganath
The best thing I can tell you is that Layonara is an Earth-sized planet, so figure about 12,500 miles pole-to-pole.

Them witch burning words. Layonara is flat!
 

SteveMaurer

Re: Question of Scale in Maps and Distances
« Reply #13 on: March 04, 2009, 04:24:59 pm »
Quote from: Chongo
This is my Captain Obvious speech, but it's good to hear every once in a while.

For the sake of not having anyone find themselves pounding their heads against a wall, I'd recommend keeping the discussion to theory alone.  It's great to chuckle at things that are not realistically represented, and often they are to a humorous degree... but when it strays into the portrayal of an actual problem, it ends up as lost opinions.  There are always appropriate ways to represent it through your roleplay - and I'd stick to the flow of traffic rule.  That is - find the general temperment of the rest of the server and try to just live up to that atmosphere so that you're not detracting from it (in either direction).
...
So when you say that you'll defer to those who 'want it to be that way'... it's not a sentiment of 'grrr... I'm going to fragment the heck out of this world because I want to steal bits and peices from ya'll!'.  It's meeting storyline goals and doing the best we can.


I'm not certain what is meant here about "lost opinions".   This is not my server; I have put in no effort in its creation, maintenance, writing, programming, or map design.  So I feel relatively confidant in declaring that I have no opinion, or at least none that should count.   In fact, I would go so far as to say that I'm reveling in my obscurity.

That said, if merely asking a question in the forums, and deferring to the authorities on such matters, is considered disruptive ("detracting from the atmosphere"), then clearly I've unintentionally touched on a sore spot among some of the people who have put much effort into this site, and will refrain from asking questions in the future.

To be clear, however, my question was never intended to be any sort of criticism of the number of maps that are, or are not, present on the server.   We all understand there is an abstract relationship between what is intended as gameworld/roleplaying reality, and what is possible from programming.

My question really was oriented towards the roleplaying aspects of Layonara.   I know now, for instance, that when a merchant kisses his wife on Port Hempstead goodbye to take goods down the Fort Vehl, this means that he expects to see her again not in a couple of months, but in well over a year.   Foodstuffs, even cheeses, simply do not pass in and out of Dapplegreen; it would be unprofitable when you have to eat most of the goods you're carrying to make the journey.   And a round trip between Hempstead and Hlint consumes six years of ones life, which is considerable even for an elf.

This leads me to the conclusion that while my in-game character may be traversing the maps of Forts Vehl, Wayfare, and Hlint -- for the roleplaying to work, she is actually just visiting fortified towns along the Hempstead peninsula, a few of which simply possess many of the aspects those far more distant cities.   Among other things, this affects her character development journal, which I now need to update.

Again, I'm not trying to detract from anyone else's enjoyment of this site, but I do take RP seriously enough to ask for clarifications when something like this comes up.
 

Chongo

Re: Question of Scale in Maps and Distances
« Reply #14 on: March 04, 2009, 04:32:03 pm »
Never said you were detracting from the atmosphere bud, and definitely didn't imply forum questions had any attachment to server atmosphere.

Again, on how to roleplay it - flow of traffic.  That's my recommendation.
 

miltonyorkcastle

Re: Question of Scale in Maps and Distances
« Reply #15 on: March 04, 2009, 04:44:09 pm »
Quote
My question really was oriented towards the roleplaying aspects of Layonara. I know now, for instance, that when a merchant kisses his wife on Port Hempstead goodbye to take goods down the Fort Vehl, this means that he expects to see her again not in a couple of months, but in well over a year. Foodstuffs, even cheeses, simply do not pass in and out of Dapplegreen; it would be unprofitable when you have to eat most of the goods you're carrying to make the journey. And a round trip between Hempstead and Hlint consumes six years of ones life, which is considerable even for an elf.


Six years! Heh, holy moly, I hope we cleared it up that it's not that bad in terms of distance.

Quote
That said, if merely asking a question in the forums, and deferring to the authorities on such matters, is considered disruptive ("detracting from the atmosphere"), then clearly I've unintentionally touched on a sore spot among some of the people who have put much effort into this site, and will refrain from asking questions in the future.


I think this is another case of inflection and other non-written forms of communication not translating here. Please never hesitate to ask questions, especially if they're posed in a reasonably polite and thoughtful manner.
 

Thief Of Navarre

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    Re: Question of Scale in Maps and Distances
    « Reply #16 on: March 04, 2009, 04:58:34 pm »
    If thats the case either the planet of Layo will have to become closer to the size of a small moon or the gameworld will have to become a mere fraction of the planet as a whole..
     

    Gulnyr

    Re: Question of Scale in Maps and Distances
    « Reply #17 on: March 04, 2009, 05:10:59 pm »
    Following the road from Hemp to Hlint is about 4400 miles (if I measured right).  That's over 6 months at an adventurer's pace, one way, so a round trip takes a year.  Wagons are slower.  Trade is weird (and often not worth it) over long distances at medieval travel rates.  *nods*
     

    EdTheKet

    Re: Question of Scale in Maps and Distances
    « Reply #18 on: March 04, 2009, 05:37:32 pm »
    Quote from: merlin34baseball
    Um...  believe what Ed said was right... One half of a day.

    Ed... If this not right I apologize.

    Statute Miles

        The term Statute Miles was codified during the reign of Raklin “The True” Diamoniar.  This term came to use during his codifications of the laws of the land.  Before this codification people spoke of travel in terms of days, such as Prantz was a two day walk from Lor.  This gave the estimation of time it would take for the journey but the actual length of the road was not measured.  Terrain could vastly change how long a journey took.  A journey over mountains could be half the miles but take more time that a journey twice as long over flat plains.

        As Raklin began improving the roads across the land to further the movement of trade goods and troops there became a problem.  This problem was how to pay the workers who improved the roads.  Debates broke out about how much should be paid for improving the roads.  Greed began to overcome some that were charged with repairing and improving the roads.

        Raklin realized that he must figure out a way to pay the workers fairly.  He set out one day to view some of the construction.  He walked for half a day before he came upon a group of workers clearing brush and rocks from a road.  He had brought a great feast with him and settled in with the workers to enjoy a fine mid day meal.  After dining and speaking with the workers, while getting a good idea of their work, he returned to the capital.

        The next day he had an idea.  He sent one of his scouts back out to count the paces that it took for him to get to the place that he had broke bread with the workers the day before.  He sent a cart with the scout carrying a large carved stone, to be set next to the road at the spot.

        The scout started counting his paces as he left the main gate of Prantz.  Upon arrival the workers set the stone next to the road.  This initial measurement would form the distance called “Statute Miles” once it was codified with the laws of the land.

        Raklin now had a unit of measure by which to estimate the costs of road repairs and also true distances between cities and villages across the land.

        Some of these stones can still be seen to this day, some more weather beaten than others.

    My Thanks,
    Merlin34


    Well :) I need to have that looked at and changed! (And regardless, it remains a very long distance!)

    Quote
    That said, if merely asking a question in the forums, and deferring to the authorities on such matters, is considered disruptive ("detracting from the atmosphere"), then clearly I've unintentionally touched on a sore spot among some of the people who have put much effort into this site, and will refrain from asking questions in the future.

    Not a sore spot, and please continue to ask questions!

    Quote
    This leads me to the conclusion that while my in-game character may be traversing the maps of Forts Vehl, Wayfare, and Hlint -- for the roleplaying to work, she is actually just visiting fortified towns along the Hempstead peninsula, a few of which simply possess many of the aspects those far more distant cities.
    All inhabited towns and cities (certainly fortified ones) are on the map. What she would encounter is deserted towns, and the occasional 20-people hamlet.

    And as for foodstuff trade, indeed, nobody would ship food across large distances. That also wasn't done in the Earth medieval times mind you, unless it was foodstuff that were well conserved, like salted meat. Towns are mostly self-sufficient, food wise. They have to be.

    And of course the truly luxury seeking customers, will have magically preserved food shipped to them. But in order to not overly complicate things, I would leave out any detailed writings about travel times from your char dev journal.
     

    SteveMaurer

    Re: Question of Scale in Maps and Distances
    « Reply #19 on: March 05, 2009, 12:59:58 pm »
    Well, in doing a little research around the net, I discovered that people back in the day, were a lot quicker than one might assume.   This review, for instance, of a book of letters and diaries of women who traveled westward to California in 1852, details that they were able to average 30 miles per day by covered wagon.   This is a far faster speed than I ever imagined.

    So if we put that together with a Scale of Miles on the maps being Earth miles (no matter what the other notation), that means that it would take about 24 days to travel from Port Hempstead to Dapplegreen.   And about 21 from there to Fort Vehl.    A round trip Hempstead to Vehl and back again would take 90 days, a touch less than three months.    Adventurers who push themselves very hard to moving 45 miles a day, might make it in two.

    From a roleplaying perspective, this is still a bit problematic, especially since Ed nixed my idea to just assume that some of the maps were representing areas that are a little more accessible.    My new idea is to do a temporal-shifting as part of a storytellers prerogative.   In other words, while my PC in game seems to be moving up and down the roads with the speed of a passenger jet, what is really going on is that all of her disparate adventures over the course of a year in game time in, say, Fort Vehl, really happened all during the brief period of time she was there.  I'm just playing those adventures out of order temporally.   As another example, Packagemaster Frea (sp?) didn't dribble out the packages one after another (forcing multiple thousand-mile trips back and forth).  Instead, hearing of someone making the long journey, she really gave them out all at once, each to be delivered as my PC moved down the road.

    With this interpretation, I think I can resolve the RP aspects satisfactorily, although I'm going to have to pretend not to hear typical in-game talk that goes: "Well, it's getting late.  I've got something to do in Port Hempstead.  Why don't you come with me?" when this conversation takes place just outside of Hlint.

    Although, come to think of it, inventing some sort a fast non-combat travel enchantment would be exactly the kind of thing my PC would be interested in doing.   Hmmmm...   could make for a fine CDQ.
    :)
     

     

    anything