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Author Topic: Question re: Economy of Layo, and Selling Used Weaponry  (Read 1305 times)

lonnarin

Re: Question re: Economy of Layo, and Selling Used Weaponry
« Reply #20 on: February 08, 2008, 07:30:44 pm »
Good Question Pseudo.  Always wondered about how fun a good loansharking business would be in game.

On that note, what is the accepted standard for the minimum sales price something can be on the open market relative to the lens price?  20%? 50%?
 

darkstorme

Re: Question re: Economy of Layo, and Selling Used Weaponry
« Reply #21 on: February 08, 2008, 11:11:01 pm »
Twenty percent.

And there has to be a decent reason for it (haggling, preferred customer special, multiple item discount, etc, etc.)
 

Stephen_Zuckerman

Re: Question re: Economy of Layo, and Selling Used Weaponry
« Reply #22 on: February 09, 2008, 12:38:26 am »
Wow, really? Then half the magic items in the world go for less than they're supposed to, even after auctions. ;) The Lens price can be exorbitantly high.
 

Riven

Re: Question re: Economy of Layo, and Selling Used Weaponry
« Reply #23 on: February 09, 2008, 01:36:47 am »
Alrighty! so Riven and Slip will open up the Saddlebag Pawn Shop, buying used weaponry to resell. Although it is a small chance that used weaponry has accidentally struck trees/boulders, it still is a chance. So, we will sell the used weaponry for 20% off the normal price, unless I hear from GMs that is not acceptable. Personally, I believe most people will want to purchase at full cost, a new weapon, so they can be sure it will hold up. Especially since the pawn shop re-buys any weapons they sold, when an adventurer has outgrown it. Thus, an iron long sword, may have multiple owners. But, let's see how it all falls out!
Thanks for all the efforts to illuminate the issues! And if I'm not allowed to sell at 20% off because it's "used", please let me know!
 

LightlyFrosted

Re: Question re: Economy of Layo, and Selling Used Weaponry
« Reply #24 on: February 09, 2008, 01:44:52 am »
For the record, a handy guide to pricing:

(Handier than the lens)  http://forums.layonara.com/general-discussion/92445-zeros-rough-pricing-guidelines.html
 

Riven

Re: Question re: Economy of Layo, and Selling Used Weaponry
« Reply #25 on: February 11, 2008, 12:51:14 am »
Ed and Darkstorme: thanks for the 20% off rule.
Lightly Frosted: thanks for the price guide.

Unfortunately, when I search prices for Raven's, Orc Basher's, and Twin Dragons, and compare to the price guide Lightly Frosted posted, I find the prices of all four sources are quite different. There seems to be no "standard" price for weapons. For example, a bronze shortsword lens pricing is 1548, and at the three guilds sells for between 500-1000 true. Iron shortsword between 1000 and 1500 true. Yet Zero's guide says 3-5k for iron weaponry. In that same thread Talan (GM) wrote 2-2.5k for an iron weapon.  

So....Seems there is no accurate pricing guide for layo? That's okay, as far as I'm concerned, since it's realistic for pricing to fluctuate depending on supply and demand, like any market. But if there is concern for economy, then I suggest creating the accurate numbers, and then people bargain plus or minus 20% off of those numbers.
 
In the meantime, unless I hear otherwise, my budding merchant Riven will base his weapon prices on what other guilds charge and the lens pricing.

Lastly, is the lens pricing an in-game or OOC item?

Thanks!
 

Weeblie

Re: Question re: Economy of Layo, and Selling Used Weaponry
« Reply #26 on: February 11, 2008, 04:10:36 am »
I wouldn't recommend following the lens price too much as it is only checking the price the game engine gives it (in other words, the price that will decide the level requirement). It's giving you a good clue about what price range the item is at, but sometimes, it will greatly overvalue items (say... Bloodfall) and other times, greatly undervalue them (can't spontanteous think of any).

The older the price guide you follow, the most expensive everything will look like. Zero's guide is probably the oldest that's still left, and hence the very high prices according to today's point of view.

Raven Trade Company's price list (note that these comments are likely biased now, heh) at http://forums.layonara.com/trade-market-hall/96874-raven-trade-company.html were created and modified to show the market price at that time (actually a little bit over the market price to leave room for "private crafters" to be able to compete too). For quite a few months, I'm quite sure that this one was considered the "standard price list".

What happened then? Well... other merchant guilds became more active and put forth their price lists, which naturally will have to be a little bit lower than all previous ones. A 10% decrease in price... another 10% on top of the previous 10%... and then even more 10%s... And suddenly, we are now at the prices today. :)

The 20% rule/suggestion were created to damper the effect of this which I think it has been rather successful of. The prices are dropping, but they aren't dropping very rapidly. Ironically, for the high end things, the prices are going up instead of down... This leads to the transition between "low" and "high" being slightly trickier than before.

The lowering of prices are in the end hurting "private" crafters more than what it does to the guilds. Guilds generally sell some high end things (or help crafting them) which will make the profits from low end things being in the margins of error even, heh. I would actually wish for all guilds with a reasonble profit (100,000+/month?) to increase their prices for low end things a little...
 

Frelinder

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Re: Question re: Economy of Layo, and Selling Used Weaponry
« Reply #27 on: February 11, 2008, 07:32:58 am »
As i understand it the lence price is only based on what lvl requirement the item have and don't take in considoration if the item can be crafted, or if its for any good use.. and most important if the item is an desirable item.

Example:
Mithril wepaons that noone realy use like spear, double sword and so on are practically worth nothing. I personally don't like seeing foundations(groups purchasing such items for alot of gold when they are up for auction just to satisfied a PC that have found it because he can't sell it on the open market.

If nobody wan'ts to buy it its worth nada, zero.. If everybody wan'ts it we get a market value on it.

This is how I see it on the high ends drops. Then what about low end drops, craftable items for low and mid lvl. This is diferent. the lencepricing is of here too and the market is more or less flooded of these items.. only way out from this is to decrase the drops of iron, addy wepaons and so forth alot. Items that can't be crafted should still be dropped like they are today.. but items that are craftable shouldn't be as comon in drops that they are now. This is  if we wan't to have a healthy econmy whith crafters and guilds that can make a living on selling things.

Zeros priceline is a bit off but my sugestion is to start to update it. The leading guilds should have a meeting whith eachother and agree on a priceguide that every guild should stick too :)

On the thing about selling items, things whith discount this will always take place in a living world.. Aslong as it make RP sence go for it... Friends, family.. used weapon, a costumor that buys many things.. you scratch my back i scratch yours ;)

IMPORTANT! This is betewenn PC:s and not the players.. So I'm not saying if a player have several characters its okey that one of his high ends characters sell/give things very cheap to another PC and this PC can return the favor whith selling/give things extremly cheap to this players other low lvl characters..
 

Weeblie

Re: Question re: Economy of Layo, and Selling Used Weaponry
« Reply #28 on: February 11, 2008, 08:49:38 am »
Clarification on the lens price: While the lens price isn't the best utility to check the price for all items, it's still an excellent one to give you a rough guide on how much an item is worth (gems and a few special items excluded). The lens price is accurate for most of the low end/mid end "basic" items (swords, armors, etc). But extra care should be taken when enchantments and other improvements to the items are involved. Best way to estimate the price of something is to check all the sources. Lens for a first guess... check Zero's guide for second guess... check guild prices for a third guess... and take something in between. :)
 

Dorganath

Re: Question re: Economy of Layo, and Selling Used Weaponry
« Reply #29 on: February 11, 2008, 09:02:24 am »
Quote from: Frelinder
Zeros priceline is a bit off but my sugestion is to start to update it. The leading guilds should have a meeting whith eachother and agree on a priceguide that every guild should stick too :)

While it would be fine for Zero's pricing guide to be updated (though it's probably mostly correct for the actual value of things), I don't think it's necessarily the best idea for guilds to set the prices.  

Guilds have an advantage over independent crafters in that they have a lot more resources available to them and can usually produce things faster or may even have them in-stock.  Independent crafters, in an RP sense, don't have the overhead of big guilds, and while they may be slower, they may also be more willing or able to give pricing variations based on a variety of other factors.

In truth, pricing is so terribly messed up due to a variety of reasons, one being NWN's use of only Gold Pieces as currency.  If you look at how much the average Layonaran citizen makes over the course of a year and compare that to the cost of a single bottle of ale...heh... the latter is a small fortune.  But then even if we narrow things to the "heroic" portion of the population, another problem emerges.  To put it simply, gold has little actual value when we have an endless supply of it...when one giant may carry enough gold on him to support a commoner family for a decade or more...when there aren't many effective outlets for money in the economy (read: gold sinks)...and so on.

I could strike fear into every guild on the server with one word: taxes  ;)

Prices are high in part because people can pay them.  People can pay them because it's not a huge problem to go out and get more off of corpses in an hour or two of "training".  Of course, it sort of marginalizes those who don't really care to make a habit of the gold/XP/CNR/loot grinds, but that whole issue goes a lot deeper than just the price of goods.

Oh my...it appears I started a small rant...*sheepish grin* Sorry! :)

In any case, whatever pricing guide is used, and whoever comes up with it should reflect the actual value and not the current perceived market value.  From there, individual crafters and guilds alike can set a reasonable "fair" price based on whatever factors they decide, as long as the total transaction stays within 10-20% of the price guide.
 

Nehetsrev

Re: Question re: Economy of Layo, and Selling Used Weaponry
« Reply #30 on: February 11, 2008, 10:07:22 am »
I have to chime in that the non-sensical pricing for almost every item has been something that's bugged me for a long time too.  In fact, at one point I had begun to compile a list of every craftable item and what components were needed to make it, as well as the minimum levels required in the given craft, in order to establish consistent pricing to compensate for the actual materials that went into the items and the crafter's expertise.  Sadly, I gave up on that project because it got to be just too much work.  Though I think I still have all the notes I'd taken before giving up.

Who knows, with this new thread here, maybe I'll revive my work there.  I can say right now that if I did the pricing I'd come up with would likely be drasticly different on a lot of items than it is now, and still, it'd only be a guide and it would be up to the guilds/independent crafters as to whether to adhere to it or not.  However, when completed my system would take into account pricing for items whose components themselves must be crafted before the item can be.  For example, an Electrical Weapon Enchantment II requires several phazes of work in more than one craft in order to be made, which include: 1) turning sand into glass ingots (Tinkering), 2) turning glass ingots and coal into a Crystal Rod II (Tinkering again), 3) Turning raw Mineral Topaz into Cut Topaz (Gem Crafting), 4) processing the appropriate grain (Cooking), and finally 5) putting it all together to make the final product (Enchanting).

As you can see, four seperate skills are needed just for that one item.  This gives guilds a far superior advantage over the independent crafter, because in a guild each member can focus on learning a single craft, thus ataining higher proficiency more quickly.  Not to mention the fact that with a guild there's the 'built-in' team to go gather CNR together, a resource many independent crafters don't have which further slows their progress in relation to the guilds.  By the time an independent crafter has achieved a given proficiency in the skills required to make desireable items, they have usually already invested a great deal of personal wealth to further their progress, beyond any profit they might seek to earn back easilly in their lifetime.  Another advantage the guilds have is their ability to offer more sales contacts in a well-known, stable location, making it much easier for potential customers to find them and buy their goods.  With all those factors working for them, it's no wonder guilds can under-price any independent crafter and still make decent profits, effectively hedging independent crafters out of the profitable markets and into more of a hobbyist role.

So there're a couple ways to look at this as a prospective buyer.  One is that if you want an item relatively quickly, at a decent/average price, go to a guild.  If you want one on the cheap, seek out an independent crafter, because unless they have a house to store product in they'll be glad to part with their goods for cheaper just to recoup a fraction of their investments and free up some inventory space.  Heck, I've known several independent crafters (including myself) that've made items for nearly free so long as the customer provides the materials needed and doesn't mind the risk of losing them in a failed crafting attempt, simply in order to further their own crafting knowledge.

Heh...guess I got to rambling a bit here...but it's all valid in my opinion anyhow.
 

Eight-Bit

Re: Question re: Economy of Layo, and Selling Used Weaponry
« Reply #31 on: February 11, 2008, 12:56:53 pm »
I always go by the usefulness system. If it's useful to them, it's worth a whole lot more than if it isn't. :)
 

lonnarin

Re: Question re: Economy of Layo, and Selling Used Weaponry
« Reply #32 on: February 11, 2008, 04:21:43 pm »
I hope you all remember the 20 percent lense rule when selling silk by the box.  35 true give or take 7 coins of bartering makes Farros a happy crafter!  If eggs cost that much on the market, I could finally afford to bake a slice of... BREAD!
 

darkstorme

Re: Question re: Economy of Layo, and Selling Used Weaponry
« Reply #33 on: February 11, 2008, 08:11:59 pm »
Well, the 20% rule usually only extends downwards.  Really, you can charge much, much more, since that doesn't flood the market/ruin the economy/trivialize the item/etc.

I would agree, however, that an update to the pricing lists is in order.